bazzzzou
42 posts
Dec 12, 2010
1:23 PM
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Post wich of those two harps is your favourite ( out of the box)
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Todd Parrott
213 posts
Dec 12, 2010
1:43 PM
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Well, this really isn't a fair comparison since there isn't a Golden Melody Deluxe.... at least not yet.
I played OOTB GM's for years and years and loved them. The Marine Band Deluxes I've tried have all been pretty good, but neither of them are ideal overblow harps right out of the box. Both require setting up. The GM is also ET tuned btw.
I stopped looking for the perfect OOTB harp a long time ago - it just doesn't exist, at least not for my needs. Nothing beats a custom harp.
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tookatooka
1933 posts
Dec 12, 2010
1:44 PM
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You are aware that they are tuned differently?
The GM will be ET and the MB JI.
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bazzzzou
43 posts
Dec 12, 2010
1:45 PM
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okok =P.. By th way todd.. I realy like your playing!!!
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Todd Parrott
215 posts
Dec 12, 2010
1:53 PM
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Thanks bazzzzou!
The real comparison would be to listen for the difference in the tone between the two harps and let your ears decide which one sounds the best to you.
Even if the two harps were both customized, it would still be a matter of tone. I think too many people are concentrating on and judging a harp based on how well it responds out of the box. While this is important to a degree, the main factor to me is tone. That's why I like GM's so much. Any harp can be made to play better, but what do you have in the end if you don't have a tone that you like? Hope this makes sense.
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bazzzzou
44 posts
Dec 12, 2010
2:23 PM
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yes it makes! I love de GM tone but I also realy like them because it response very well.. much more than the MB.. so I wanted to know if the playability was good too on the MB deluxe
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harmonicanick
1026 posts
Dec 12, 2010
2:27 PM
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I the only GM player in my city in uk; everyone else is MB special.
I love them and will not change:)
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Todd Parrott
219 posts
Dec 12, 2010
2:40 PM
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I would personally love to see the GM made available with some type of black shiny covers, no numbers on top, the treble clef and font in silver or gray, chrome plated reed plates, and a black comb (metal or Corian), and accented and opened cover plates with side vents (or without). And of course, with reed work making them more suitable for overblows and overdraws.
The Golden Meldody could also be offered in both ET and Just tunings, or a compromised tuning.
These are just some of my my ideas.....
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harmonicanick
1028 posts
Dec 12, 2010
2:47 PM
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I would buy that Todd but no more money!!
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chromaticblues
384 posts
Dec 12, 2010
2:56 PM
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I'd like to see The GM with a new comb! Its difficult getting them to seal well. They could open the covers up a litte also, but the comb is soooo bad! it is realllly in need of change. I would tell anyone that really likes this harps to look into buying custom wooden combs. Hohner has not addressed this situation and I don't know why? I like the Hohner hand made harps, but the GM is still stuck in 1990. I'm not trying to bash on GM players! Just stating my point on the subject.
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chromaticblues
385 posts
Dec 12, 2010
3:04 PM
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bazzzzou do some research and see what the sales are compared to the two harps. Or you could buy one of each and play them! Let your ears be the judge. Don't let other people makes your choices for you.
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bazzzzou
47 posts
Dec 12, 2010
3:10 PM
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This is what im going to do.. xD but some times it is good to hear what people think.. for exemple.. I was looking for a hohner cross harp and all the people that I ask told me that it was crap.. I am a *** poor guy and I dont want to spend money on crap xD! but I am going to try both..
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chromaticblues
386 posts
Dec 12, 2010
3:22 PM
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Yaeh I hear ya Bazzzzou! Just stay away from the MS hohners! I say the special 20 is a good all around harp. It easy on the mouth due to the mouthpiece. I would say that is the best harp for someone that doesn't know what to buy!
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hvyj
900 posts
Dec 12, 2010
3:35 PM
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@Todd: It' s my impression that it's the absence of side vents that contributes to the distinctive tone of GMs. Personally, i prefer the tone of harps with UNvented covers to harp like the MB which have vented covers.
I agree that GMs are the best sounding Hohner harps.
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bigd
258 posts
Dec 12, 2010
4:14 PM
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I have some GM's customized by Brad H. prior to his development of the B Rad and they have side vents. As expected the customs are louder and more responsive than generic GM's but I don't think there is a great tonal change via the vents. Trust me though: I am not invalidating a perceived tonal change with vents- just my perception.
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chromaticblues
388 posts
Dec 12, 2010
4:28 PM
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@hvyj I do realize that Todd's custom has vented and opened covers. Most customizers do that because unvented cover tend to mute the sound.
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hvyj
901 posts
Dec 12, 2010
6:16 PM
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Well, I think harps with UNvented covers have a darker tone than harps with vented covers. I'm reasonably confident that this is an objective observation on my part. Personally, I wouldn't describe the darker tone as "muted" but i suspect we are referring to the same thing.
My custom Buddha Harps are GMs with unvented covers and they certainly are louder than OOB GMs.
This may be subjective, but, in general, I tend to think unvented covers produce a more focused tone and vented covers produce a more open tone. But maybe I'm just attributing these characteristics to the darker tone.
Anyway, I happen to prefer the sound of harps with unvented covers.
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HarpNinja
825 posts
Dec 12, 2010
6:55 PM
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I am very interested in any suggestions on how to vent and open GM covers easily and cleanly. I love GM's, but the custom MB's are just so awesome and loud.
I go back and forth mentally, but have such a love of the GM's shape. They are much darker sounding than the MB's. I have a couple of MB custom combs left, but will be noodling with Manji and GM's after that.
All my harps are ET, and as awesome as MB's can play, the work of drilling, etc is too time consuming for where I am at in life. Hence the Manji and GM's with custom combs as my alternative...any step I can cut to get to reedwork and playing again is where it is at!
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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Roverharp
2 posts
Dec 12, 2010
8:30 PM
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I was lucky enough to come across a drill press at Walmart for $25! They must have been short of shelf space or something. If you can get one cheap just add a large diameter Dremel sanding bit and make your vents as shallow or deep as you like. I guess any rotary tool with enough RPMs would work but like I said; $25 for a real drill press.
Since I have small hands I've wondered about just putting vents on the bass side of the instrument to allow for better cupping when desired.
On a separate note, is it just a fact that getting a good comb on a GM is a crap shoot? The best harp I've ever reworked was a GM. Then I got successive ones in G that sucked and couldn't make good. I thought it might be inconsistent reed work on my part but reading here makes me think it was leaky combs. Minute variances must have a big impact on performance. Outside custom combs is there anything that can be done to the stock comb to make it airtight?
Paul
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Todd Parrott
221 posts
Dec 12, 2010
9:06 PM
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@ hvyj & chromaticblues - I think the whole purpose of full length covers is to darken the tone, and I can see how adding side vents could possibly alter the tone, however, on the customs I have with vents, I don't notice a significant difference in the tone with or without vents. The vents on my custom harps work truly as vents, so that if you completely close off your sound chamber, the air has someplace to escape, rather than recirculating through the harp.
So, I can use GM's with or without vents. I had Joe Spiers add the vents mainly because it just makes the harp look more custom.
As for improvements to the stock GM, I do think a better comb is long overdue, and the impression I got from Hohner at SPAH is that the GM may be the next harp on their list for an overhaul.
@ HarpNinja The best person I know to check with on opening GM covers is Randy Sandoval. The GM he opened up for me has an extremely clean look. Corian is an awesome comb material as well btw.
@ Roverharp The problem with stock combs sometimes is that they are not perfectly flat. Your best best would be to go with custom combs from one of the customizers. Chris Reynold's has some beautiful combs and does great work (www.blowyourbrassoff.com). I don't think the stock GM combs can be sanded flat.
What I was saying earlier in regards to improving the GM, is that it would be nice to have the GM offered with different options - with or without vents, wooden or plastic comb (or some other material), Just or ET tuning, etc. Harp players like and want options.
I still think a solid black version as I described above would be cool.
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boris_plotnikov
334 posts
Dec 12, 2010
11:00 PM
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OOTB them all sucks. GM is completely unplayable, MB deluxe is playable but far from perfect, OOTB MBD is better than OOTB GM. While after customizing GM is much better than MB deluxe. I hate MB tone, MB side vents, MB size and MB response. And I love the same about custom golden melody.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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hvyj
903 posts
Dec 12, 2010
11:03 PM
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The black composite combs on my custom GM Buddha Harps from Chris Michalek are nice. I believe he sells custom combs separately and he can make them in different thicknesses.
I have pretty much the same opinion of MBs as Boris does.
Last Edited by on Dec 13, 2010 1:12 AM
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boris_plotnikov
335 posts
Dec 12, 2010
11:10 PM
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BTW, GM comb really sucks. I'm just going from GMs to seydel 1847 silver. I like not worrying about keeping harp in tune (stainless steel reeds are always in tune!). I like the fact, than combs can be sanded flat with easy. I like the dinamics they can be pretty loud and soft. Yes I miss some GM overtones and sweet cover shape, but it's small issues.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Last Edited by on Dec 12, 2010 11:12 PM
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jim
529 posts
Dec 13, 2010
12:32 AM
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both harmonicas are the same thing as they share the same reeds
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www.truechromatic.com
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hvyj
904 posts
Dec 13, 2010
4:45 AM
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Yeah. That's why it's comb and cover design that makes the difference in tonal qualities.
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Andrew
1246 posts
Dec 13, 2010
8:53 AM
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I grew to like my GM in C, but later on I got one in A, and I've never really liked it - it's got a very stubborn 3 hole, which I've tweaked often, to no avail.
So, MBD, clearly!
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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Todd Parrott
224 posts
Dec 13, 2010
9:20 AM
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@ hvyj - You are correct, though all the handmade Hohners use the same reeds as Jim points out, there are differences in the tone which is shaped by the covers more than anything.
The comb material has little if anything to do with the tone, but the thickness of the comb does make a difference, both in the tone and responsiveness. I have some combs from Chris Reynolds that are acrylic and are slightly thinner, as well as a composite purple gemstone comb that is slightly thicker than the stock GM comb, and again, there is a difference in the tone.
And as for stainless steel reeds staying in tune longer, this topic came up at SPAH and many customizers agreed that this is not the case. I don't know since I'm not a customizer, but I trust their advice. I think even the B-Radicals were supposed to be released with stainless steel reeds but they decided that brass was better. That's a different debate for another thread. I personally think the 1847 Silver is one of the worst OOTB harps I've played, and I don't like the tone at all, but some people love them. To me, they feel just like playing a Big River Harp.
Coming back to the Golden Melody, besides the comb (which will all agree needs an upgrade) what are some other things that you'd like to see in a deluxe version of the GM?
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Greyowlphotoart
211 posts
Dec 13, 2010
9:23 AM
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I've only bought one Marine Band Deluxe in D and my first impressions weren't great as it felt uncomfortable, taking a lot more effort to play (it felt kind of tight) than say, my Harpmaster in D. However, I have done some work on it and it plays much better now and I have to say the tone is nice, brighter and dirtier than the Harpmaster. I'm still uncertain about buying another one.
I can't compare like for like as I don't have a GM in D but in C,E & F. The Gm's are very nice to play, but I have tweaked these as well. The GM in C is very good, a real nice loud, dirtyish tone and something else quite distinctive that I can't quite describe, sort of tinny (not shrill) in a pleasing way. I don't have any reservations about buying more GM's as I am liking them more and more.
My Spam prevention entry skills are improving btw, having said that now, I bet this post is rejected! :-)
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hvyj
905 posts
Dec 13, 2010
9:58 AM
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@Todd: I agree about the cover design having the greatest effect on tone. But sandwich style combs (like custom GMs have and like MBs have) also effect tone as compared to plastic recessed comb design An important variable, of course, is that custom sandwich style combs are perfectly flat and stock MB combs are not.
I've always thought that painted or coated covers (like on the Suzuki Hammonds or old Hohner Pro Harps) have a darker tone than shiny covers. Some knowledgeable people think I'm crazy to believe this, but there are others who agree with me. So, yeah, I think a GM with black covers would be cool.
Having tried custom combs of different thicknesses that I got from Chris Michalek, I definitely agree that comb thickness affects tone and responsiveness.
Btw, i admire your playing a great deal.
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HarpNinja
828 posts
Dec 13, 2010
10:17 AM
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@Roverharp,
I have a Dremel, but didn't like the way the covers turned out. I think I could live with some sort of tool that lets me cut a small square/rectangle out. I am sure there is some sort of snip or cutter that'd work.
I've had NO luck bending the coverplates in the back, but I am not a great tool using mind.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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chromaticblues
390 posts
Dec 13, 2010
12:24 PM
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@hvjy You are right about putting tape on the inside of the covers to "soften" the tone. You not crazy! Well as far as I know! I agree with what you said about the unvented and vented covers also.
I never liked vented covers years ago. I use to like the sp 20 because it had a more blues tone. I now know it was the covers. Now that I have a very deep acoustic tone that type of tone is just to dark for me now. Thats why I like the vented covers. The thing I have noticed with the modified MB or Crossovers is they are LOUD! I like it loud because It feels like I don't have to play so hard which in turns helps acoustic tone and I can play more controled. Playing uncontrol has never been my thing, but I never had modified Crossovers before either! Have I mention I like the Crossover yet!
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hvyj
911 posts
Dec 13, 2010
12:58 PM
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@chromaticblues: I was talking about painted covers (like the Hammond has) or Greblon coated covers (like the Pro Harp has) which is different from using tape.
But, yeah, i absolutely agree putting Micrpore inside the covers will take the edge off a very bright or raspy harp or, as you put it, will "soften" the tone. Other tape will do the same thing, but i like Micropore because it stays put, doesn't accidentally peel off and stays in place even if it gets moist or wet.
I don't like vented overs because I think they produce a more diffuse tone. BTW, I do NOT agree that vented covers are louder. Try this: Play a harp with vented covers and then put your fingers over the covers being careful to block them completely as you play. I find that the harp will sound louder when you block the vents.
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Greyowlphotoart
216 posts
Dec 13, 2010
1:21 PM
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@ hvji I've just tried playing with the vented covers on my MB Deluxe by placing a small piece of blue tack on each vent (just enough to cover the vent) and to my ear it sounded slightly softer and less bright than if the vents were uncovered.
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hvyj
914 posts
Dec 13, 2010
1:37 PM
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It WILL definitely sound less bright, but I don't think there's any decrease in volume. You may be concluding it's softer because it's less bright. I think the tone gets less bright, but more focused and slightly louder. But maybe I'm wrong. I prefer the darker tone anyway.
Last Edited by on Dec 13, 2010 1:38 PM
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Greyowlphotoart
218 posts
Dec 13, 2010
2:13 PM
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@ Hvyi. These things are difficult to gauge I guess. I mean it's not exactly a lab test! It's also difficult because we're both player and the listener. Best have someone else play and listen without looking at what's going on with the vents.
I agree about the Hammond though, a lovely harp with a dark mellow tone (My A is really smooth to play), I haven't got any other harp quite like it.
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chromaticblues
392 posts
Dec 13, 2010
7:02 PM
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@hvyj My mistake! I should have mention the open backs also. I forgot the Crossover has the back opened up. On the subject of tape in the coverplates you can make a dark toned harp brighter also with some kind of shiny metalic tape. I'm guessing its chrome tape, but I don't know for sure. I'll bet the tape that is used on dryer vents would work.
I think the vents just makes it seem louder to the player, but still has the same affect as I mentioned earlier.
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HarpNinja
839 posts
Dec 13, 2010
8:21 PM
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I haven't worked on a GM since before taking lessons with Buddha. Started one today and wow is it awesome. I am totally guilty of stealing custom ideas from anywhere I can, and I fell back in love with the GM! I am even using the stock comb.
I only have a few gigging harps that I've worked on using all the important techniques. My older harps are all experiments with varying success. The GM, even after only being half done, is only the second correctly set up GM I have made.
I want more, lol.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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nacoran
3391 posts
Dec 13, 2010
9:50 PM
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The only harp in the set I've played is a F# GM. It's pretty but the reed plates are rough on the lips- a shame for a plastic combed harp. I've played a regular MB in Low F, and once it's back in one piece I will use it much more often than the GM, but then, it will have a custom comb by then... (I totally screwed up the comb trying to convert it to screws. :) Now I just have to decide who to buy a comb from.)
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Nate
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BronzeWailer
44 posts
Dec 14, 2010
2:39 PM
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GM
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Todd Parrott
227 posts
Dec 15, 2010
9:20 AM
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What if the Golden Melody tines extended so that they were flush with the reed plates? Anyone else think this would be an improvement? I have some combs with rounded tines which I like a lot as well.
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HarpNinja
850 posts
Dec 15, 2010
9:32 AM
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I like flat tines best, but I think you can sand it to be pretty flush. It probably doesn't work as well as with a MB.
I have a number of unfinished combs from Buddha Harps for MB's. That way, I can sand the plate/comb to be perfect before finishing the comb. The GM comb I have from him is rounded and finished, so SOL there.
I would have to look, but I am sure there is just as much room for the covers as a MB, so it would be doable.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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chromaticblues
399 posts
Dec 15, 2010
9:45 AM
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If Hohner was going to make a GM deluxe without changeing the whole design of the harp I think they need to add more screws like the SP 20's bolt pattern. The Sp 20 comes with 6 bolts, but has holes for 8. I always use 8 screws when I put one back together. Hohner has tried different cobinations GM none of which have been very good. The GM doesn't seat very well that is the main problem! Maybe a softer comb would also help?
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JohnnieHarp
89 posts
Dec 15, 2010
10:03 AM
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>What if the Golden Melody tines extended so that they were flush with the reed plates?
Todd, I "sand" my GM plates to be flush with the comb.
Actually don't sand them but use a two sided, 2 grit, 6" by 2" inch knife sharpening stone. A got it at a dollar store for ... a buck. Works great and because the stone is flat, the leading edge of the plate stays flat. I also round off the outer edge of the plate so the harp is more comfortable when playing. I remove the plates to work on them.
>I stopped looking for the perfect OOTB harp a long time >ago - it just doesn't exist...
Totally agree ... and one cutomized perfectly for/by player A will not be the perfect harp for player B ... which is why it is important to learn to adjust one's own instruments as necessary, even if customized ...
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2010 10:11 AM
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boris_plotnikov
342 posts
Dec 15, 2010
12:30 PM
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2 Todd Parrott
You're right, OOTB 1847 is not perfect (GM too, MBD too). Marine Band classic from the box is usually much worse than 1847. 1847 needs more complex approach for customizing, but when done it's perfect for me, and I'm happy not worrying about tuning. This video I'm playing 1847 silver in D, customized by me.
P.S. I still love my customized golden melody too, anything except tuning stability, and gonna play them till I become a seydel endorser ((:
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2010 12:32 PM
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chromaticblues
403 posts
Dec 15, 2010
7:27 PM
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@boris I'm surprised someone would go from a GM to a 1847. The tone from the GM to that 1847 is like night and day. I thought the 1847 had a brittle bright unuseable shrill sqreachy tone.
I'm not attacking you boris! I just heard so many good things about this harp and I thought it sounded useless!
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Todd Parrott
228 posts
Dec 15, 2010
8:09 PM
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@JohnnieHarp - What you said about custom harps is SO true! I agree 100%
@boris_plotnikov - I understand if you think the 1847 sounds better to your ears and is what works best for you. That's the way I feel about the Golden Melody. But, as for tuning stability, I'm not sure why many people say that stainless steel reeds stay in tune and last longer. I've talked to many customizers who advised that this is not the case. If I am wrong, I'm just repeating what they've said, so if anyone reading this disagrees, take it up with them - I am no customizer by any means. That actually may be an idea for a new thread.
I was not happy with the tone or playability of my 1847 Silver. However, I also agree that many harps, like the MB, also need work out of the box.
@ chromaticblues - What type of redesign or changes to the Golden Melody would you like to see?
EDIT - Boris, very nice playing in that video with Howard. You rock!
Last Edited by on Dec 15, 2010 8:18 PM
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chromaticblues
404 posts
Dec 16, 2010
9:20 AM
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@Todd I would have a flat hardwood or composite comb made with the same outline as a GM comb, but with the bolt holes for Crossover reedplates. As far as the coverplates. I don't know! I'm a Marine Band player. I haven't gotten into that! I like the open covers on MB's, but I don't know if the average GM player would like that.
This is a good time for all the Golden Melody players to speak up. Question: Do you like GM coverplates better in the stock form or opened in the back?
This is something I could offer to anyone that is interested for $100 a harp!
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jim
560 posts
Dec 16, 2010
9:40 AM
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steel reeds take one go to be fine-tuned. And that's it - they will remain in tune for years.
When I tune brass reeds, I have to do the rough tuning first, then leave it for a day. It will get out of tune because the scratches I've left have had a reaction with oxygen (that's reason #1 why brass gets out of tune over time by the way...). So I have to fine-tune it again. Usually fine-tuning corrects pitch DOWN. So I make a very thin scratch near the rivet (sometimes from the other side of the reed w/o taking the reedplates off) and try to make all other scratches over this first scratch. Why? Bigger scratched surface = more metal will react with air again and force the reed to get out of tune again.
Usually those two passes are enough, but sometimes I need to fine-tune everything one or two times more.
Steel, in its turn, is much more difficult to tune, material is harder. Takes more time to change the pitch.
Steel can also be tuned down quite a while. I've tuned some reeds -5 -6 and they don't seem to lose the springiness.
But for quickly previewing experimental altered tunings, I like brass more because it takes much less time to roughly retune the whole thing.
Steel reeds can be made into a very nice custom instrument. But it may take some time to get used to them. They play a bit differently.
as a reply to the original post, I'd say try all the stuff you can. No advice can be helpful to find out if it works for you.
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www.truechromatic.com
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chromaticblues
406 posts
Dec 16, 2010
11:02 AM
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I believe there is no such thing as the perfect harp. If you like a sweet toned harps that needs to be tuned often and you can/don't mind tuning harps. Then brass reeds have a "softer" tone then stainless steel reeds. If you want a harp that may last longer, won't have to be tuned as often and has a much brighter harsh metalic tone. Then stainless steel reeds are a good choice.
Sence Hohner doesn't use (and I hope never do) stainless steel reeds. That has nothing to do with GM's or MBD's.
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Todd Parrott
231 posts
Dec 16, 2010
11:35 AM
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It is certainly time for an upgrade to the GM, especially if it stands to be compared with other Hohner deluxe models.
@chromaticblues - I don't know that opened coverplates really make that much difference in the tone or volume of the Golden Melody, but they sure look nicer.
Do you think that traditional blues players have shied away from the GM mainly because of the tuning (ET)? It certainly is a more comfortable harp to play, and does have a more mellow tone, which I prefer especially for higher keys.
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