"The idea of the blues has been destroyed by bands that only play shuffle, slow blues, up swing blues. If bands don't do their homework and discover the rich rhythmic part of the blues they bore the average audience." Emile 'Diggs' D'Amico said that, in another thread ('But I don't like blues')
I agree.
This is a shout out to blues harp players, and blues harp lovers: Put together a catalog of blues rhythms that we harp players should know, and be able to play, and tell us about it.
Pointers to recorded or YouTube examples are good, since I and many of us play by ear. My eyes glaze over when confronted by treble and bass clefs, or numbers and arrows telling me when and how to suck and blow.
For thirty-five years, my greatest joy has been to play to a dance floor throbbing with humans moving their bodies rhythmically to the groove. As they dance, they are in ecstacy; that ecstacy bounces to the musicians and back to the dancers. I have done it for the dancers, they have done it for me. There is nothing like it. It's better than sex; don't tell our wives.
For the creative harpists in the group, I say this: when the groove is happening, and the dancers are dancing, it's safe to experiment; safe to be musically creative. Do what you want on that stage, so long as you stay in the groove. They, the dancers and your fellow musicians, will love it.
So-- give me rhythms that are danceable, not intellectually stimulating. Here's a blues song that's not shuffle, slow blues, or up swing blues, with the added bonus of being harp-centric:
If ever I need to combine the topics of harp and sex when in conversation with the wife, I intend to fall back on - "To me, playing harmonica if just like sex; I may not be much good at it, but I sure enjoy myself"
Funny that you should bring this up wolf. Last night I ran across a new jamtrack cd/download by Jimmi Lee. Unlike other Jamtracks, this one focuses on different Blues Grooves. You can see it on his site here
here is a description from Jimmi's website
This is a 2 CD set entitled "Every Groove a Bluesman Needs To Know". There are 31 "top shelf" Blues Grooves in all, with loads of different beats, tempos, keys and grooves. These backing tracks are designed to cover every blues groove a musician should know. It's a great learning tool for all members of the band. Drummers, guitar players and bass players all will benefit greatly by learning these particular grooves. They are perfect for playing lead blues licks and melodies on any instrument, whether it be harmonica, sax, piano, guitar or anything else playing blues music. They are extremely high fidelity and are perfect for making recordings with. All titles were carefully chosen and will help immensely to communicate with drummers, guitar players and bass players, to get the groove you want. Wouldn’t it help a great deal to really understand what the difference is between a Jazz Swing and a Texas Shuffle, or a Tramp Groove and a Second Line Beat? These are slang terms used by blues players. Here’s your chance to learn what slang terms like that, and lots of other lingo means, and best of all, what they sound like. Here lies a lifetime of information from living in different cities, working with countless musicians and hearing the slang and lingo used to communicate "feel", "groove", "beats", "bass lines" and more, without written music. Simply play any track and read the groove description provided several times while you listen. Identify each statement made in the description to the sound made in the music. Then memorize the slang used to communicate that musical idea, which is simply (the title of that groove). GrooveTrax™ are like getting a PHD "from the boulevard of the blues". They will help make anyone "street smart" with the blues. ----------
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2010 3:07 AM
I somewhat disagree with Emile's statement, I don't feel that shuffles & marches make blues boring. What bores me is guys who fall into a generic shuffle style and just play the same thing from song to song at different tempos & keys. The musicians that complain to me that shuffles are boring are typically players with little grounding in blues, who have their one fixed shuffle rhythm & fail to give a particular song an identity, or emphasis. In such a case they need to work on a variety of grooves and not always fall for the lowest common denominator.
I have lost count of the number of guitar players who have said to me, "Yeah, I love playing blues, but don't ask me to play...da da, da da, da da...all night", don't worry I won't...I won't ask you to anything at all, if that's what you think playing shuffles entails!
There are lots of numbers in blues that don't fall into the shuffle format, I'm all for variety, but shuffles & marches are "bread & butter", so if you don't want to play shuffles & marches, don't play blues.
Lots of guys can't differentiate a shuffle from a march & thus don't put the emphasis on the right part of the beat. Others ALWAYS try a walking bassline approach.
Mid tempo shuffles & marches often get the dancers on the floor.
Any genre or style can get repetitive & boring if that's the way it's played.
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2010 3:27 AM
Hey Wolf - Usually, when I hear people say shit like that, those people have never seen a performance by someone like Magic Slim. Slim can play slow blues and shuffles all night long. His performance never get boring or dull. His music creates a lot of energy and it stirs the emotion of the listener. He slows the groove down to get you to listen. The next couple of songs will get you moving. For me, it's an experience that makes life worth living. He's plugged into the crowd and play accordingly.
Seeing people like Louis Myers, Jimmy Rogers, Otis Rush or Albert King play the blues all night long was an experience that I'll never forget. There aren't many players of that category around anymore, but the players who can do it, amaze me.
Maybe, I'm blessed because there are some truly fabulous players playing nothing but Blues where I live. I'm grateful for that, because that's all I want to play.
I'm out seeing live Blues two or three times a week. If the players are good, it doesn't get boring or repetitive to me.
I've been thinking about this quite a bit, specifically different rhythms in the blues. Forum member tin lizzie here kinda started that by showing me some of the rhythms she was learning. I'll post some quick recordings of the rhythms. They aren't exact, but just so you get the idea.
---------- Andrew Larson, R.N.
Last Edited by on Nov 23, 2010 10:49 AM
Stickman - you beat me to it - I was also going to recommend Jimi Lee's CD set. Not only does it let you listen to a number of grooves, it gives them NAMES and describes how they work - enabling YOU to direct a band toward the groove you want. I think it is a great product.
I agree with Joe that a great show consisting only of conventional blues rhythms need not be boring. Ask a rock drummer or beginner to play a shuffle, they might be able to play one, basic, shuffle. Ask a really good blues drummer like June Core and he can easily play 15 or more DIFFERENT shuffles. All with swing and groove.
But I ALSO agree that blues doesn't need to be confined to shuffles, swing and slow blues. There are rumbas, boogie beats, swamp beats, New Orleans, funks, rock beats and more, ALL of which can be used in blues. We love to apply a new beat to an old tune once in a while just to keep it interesting for the band.
I agree Greg and I think 5f6h missed the point. I don't think the OP was talking about the pro's who have well crafted a show (one that, as seen in the "but I don't like blues" thread many fans don't recognize as blues) I think wolf was referring to bar bands and open mic night jams. And I can see how an endless shuffle by a mediocre band or an endless line of open mic jammers in the same key could quickly kill a good thing. ----------
Joe, I've heard some great bands live, and I just have to say this: I'd rather hear a good band shuffle all night long than a bad band playing thirty different kinds of rhythms a set.
I was searching blues rhythm vids in youtube and stumbled across the TrueFireTV channel for "video guitar lessons and inspiraton":
http://www.youtube.com/user/TrueFireTV
Lots of really interesting stuff on rhythms, styles, songs, a 8 or 9 part Blues jam survival guide, soloing, theory on everything. Well worth exploring. 1104 uploads to checkout.
@ Stickman - Greg and I (& Joe L) seem to be in complete agreement, we largely say the same thing. Your percieving a clash where none seems to exist. I don't see that I missed any point...at the end I say, "Any genre or style can get repetitive & boring if that's the way it's played.", which was aimed at the generic shuffles played at everyday jams (where you can only work within the confines of the guys you sit in with - herd moves at the speed of the slowest animal & all that) and what you call "bar blues bands" (not that I see that term as derogatory, & as you seem to imply).
There are just as many pro & otherwise skilled players, who play one form of blues or another, but who lack the grounding in playing shuffles & marches with an identity. If you shout out for a specific feel, you get met with a blank stare...until you say "shuffle", then they play the exact same old thing they did on the last number...I hear otherwise talented harp players saying that they are all "shuffled out" usually because they have played the same old patterns from song to song, not thought about setting up a feel, or following the vocals, or catching a II/V turnaround, etc...
To me this is where musicians in general can fall down, overlooking the learning of "songs", just concentrating on generic styles & tempos. Even if you just play harp as a sideman you should know the words to the songs you regularly play with a particular singer, know the vocal phrasing & where to be around it, know the bassline, etc.
Lots of great blues artists had/have sets chock full of shuffles, but play exciting, danceable songs, each with a defined identity.
I'll often kick off a number with the bass line, maybe on a different harp from what I'm going to use to solo if it fits better, just to illustrate what I'm looking for...still doesn't always "catch".
Diatonics are great for illustrating walking lines, or octave jumps (think "Let me love you baby"), but for marches & shuffles that use the tonic, 2nd note & flat 3rd, a chromatic/middle octave of a tenor harp in 3rd can set it up much better. (I still seem to run up against eagle eyed guitar players who see me grab an D harp to kick off in E, then they play A because, "I saw you pick up the D harp"...bless them for trying though ;-)....)
You can play 2 note figures just on the 1 & 2 a bunch of different ways, with different feels.
I looked at this thread as a separate thread to the previous "I don't like blues", I felt that Emile missed the point a little, as I felt that the original thread began on the fact that the layman doesn't recognise blues when they hear it, period. I see it all the time, if the band has an upright bass you immediately hear the possibilities being discussed..."Rockabilly?...Jazz?...Rocking rock'n'roll", typically during a LW, or a Jimmy Rogers number...it seems inconceivable to them that this great music that they are loving & dancing to is blues. Round my way Gary Moore & rock is considered blues, more often that not Bill Broonzy, Jr Wells & Muddy Waters sound like "jazz" to the uninitiated.
Let me back off my original post a bit. I'm not sure that the idea of blues has been destroyed by over-reliance on certain rhythms. Wherever blues is at, or not at, can't be attributed simply to the rhythms. The posters who said there are many kinds of shuffles are right. I LOVE shuffles, and could happily play them all night long, supposing the rest of the band really knows how to play them, and vary them. I also love playing a slow blues and getting intense.
I save our hand written set lists from gigs, as a kind of souvenir of the night. As I look at our set lists over the years, I often think they are shuffle heavy. If I put myself in the audience's shoes, I start thinking they'd want more rhythmic variety than we've sometimes offered. My post was really about me and my bands expanding our rhythmic horizons. I should add that we don't often get to play for stone cold blues freaks.
In another forum, there was a similar discussion in 2007 about blues rhythms. Here is what one poster said in that forum:
"I give names to certain drum beats so my drummer knows what I want him to play, For example: double-shuffle, flat tire groove, rumba, jungle beat, bo diddley beat, surf beat, funk, straight rock 'n roll beat, swing shuffle, collins shuffle (as in albert), high heel sneakers groove, swing, boogie, boogaloo, james brown groove, rockabilly groove, two step, juke joint groove."
I'd love to hear examples of each of those beats. I know one thing-- I love playing my harp to funky music, just as I love dancing to it. It comes easily to me, I hardly have to think about it. Anybody else love playing to funk?
5F6H, you talk about shuffles and marches being the "bread and butter" of blues. I want to focus on marches for a minute, to make sure I understand what you're talking about. Here are two examples of what I think are marches, tell me if they are:
If that's wrong, how about posting a sample of a blues march rhythm? Even if that's right, how about some more samples? Or at least naming songs with that rhythm? I will listen, and learn.
Love the subtle guitar work in this version. Definitely not your standard blues jam shuffle. I'm blessed to play with 2 guitarists that really want to stretch things out and take time to work on a song. They could easily just say 'yeah, we know t bone, let's just do it" but, they take the time to put our own stamp on it and I sound better because of it.
Sorry Wolf, I can't even read the links to your clips now that I'm home?
A straight shuffle would be like "shake your boogie", Johnny Young's version of "Don't You Lie To Me" on the Arhoolie Chicago Blues album.
A March...think of yourself saying "and LEFT...and RIGHT...and LEFT" with the emphasis on the later half of the beat, "Take A Walk With Me/Sweet Home Chicago (not so much the Blues Bros version, more like Jr Parker's version) are often played to a march rhythm, Jimmy Reed's "Bright Lights Big City is a slow march. Get them rigt and they can lurch along, almost feeling like they're going to topple over themselves... it generates terrific tension & suspense! Can really twist your guts.
The March is a Chicago blues staple, check out the album, "Low Blows - A Chicago Harmonica Blues Anthology" Good Rockin' Charles "She Loves Another Man" Joe Carter & Big John Wrencher "Take A little Walk With Me". Shuffles too like Big Leon Brooks "Kicking Up Dust". Good Rockin Charles "Ground Hog Blues" is march-like but more like what I would call "Honky Tonk" after the Ted Roddy number, more like one beat per bar, or the two notes played so close that you effectively lose the "and".
Chicago the blues today - Homesick James, great marches from Frank Kirkland (oddly, a drummer who gets few mentions compared to Clay, Below & Leary), "Dust My Broom"/"So Mean To Me".
Can be the same notes played, but the emphasis is the difference.
T-Bone shuffle is a shuffle on the down beat, "flat tyre".
Zack, a buddy of mine once bought a pair of old analogue drum machines, he said, "Largely useless but they've got a great shuffle sound...use the March setting...", which kind of illustrates my point! :-)
Last Edited by on Nov 25, 2010 10:59 AM
5F6H-- How's your Little Walter collection? The first song I posted is "Boogie", the second is "You're So Fine"; both by Little Walter from the 50s. Samples only, not the whole song; don't want to get into trouble with the powers that be.
If you don't have them (I suspect you do), both can be found on Disc 1 of "The Essential Little Walter".
Here is the album on allmusic.com-- http://www.allmusic.com/album/the-essential-r170199
If you have time, listen to sample 3 (Boogie) and 16 (You're So Fine) on Disc 1, and tell me if you consider them marches.
I'm at work now, but will listen to the march samples you mentioned when I get home.
jackson, I'll likewise listen to the shuffle you posted when I get home.
You "suspect"...just "suspect" I have those tracks? Sheeesh, that's almost fightin' talk! :-)
Boogie...not quite, just a bit too even emphasis-wise, to my perspective? If it's too even it sounds shuffle-ey to me.If it's bang on half/half it's more like a train rhythm (think Adam West era Batman theme).
"You're So Fine", yes, more so. "Oh Baby" definitely. Slow march, "Mean Old World".
Well, I took Stickman and Greg's advice and bought Jimi Lee's cd set. The recorded tracks + the written pdf guide are a wonderful combo. Adam has a nice recommendation on Jimi Lee's website as well.
