harpdude61
453 posts
Nov 06, 2010
8:53 AM
|
Kudz has a couple of new vidoes posted on youtube that are fantastic. Great lesson!
I am a lip purser, but I think tongue blocking is really cool too. .... so I have been working to get better at it.
I play octave splits and non-octave splits in 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 5th positions. Sometimes blocking 2 holes and sometimes 3. They do add much to the music and many are useful over the whole range of the harp. Great to throw in during a solo and as a backing instrument once you learn where they all are..
But....Am I really a tongue blocker? I cannot do these bluegrass, country, Irish, and folk tunes playing melody out the right side of my mouth while I do chordal rhythms tongue blocking out the left side. I can do something similar pursing, but not quite the same.
Bending and wailing on draw bends 3 and 4 while blocking to the left is beyond me too. They work better for me centered and lip pursing.
My point is, I think a lot of TB and LP players use octaves and splits, but differ in single note and melody playing, especially on the low end of the harp.
I do tongue block, but not sure I can call myself a tongue blocker.
Last Edited by on Nov 06, 2010 8:53 AM
|
5F6H
357 posts
Nov 06, 2010
9:05 AM
|
like the vast majority of players, you mix embouchures...I don't really know how you would play octave splits without TB'ing?
A few players TB everything, most still have a few things that they pucker up for though.
You can do the chordal rhythms with the lips instead of the tongue.
In short don't sweat it, just enjoy your playing & do the best that you can.
|
Greg Heumann
857 posts
Nov 06, 2010
9:49 AM
|
Yes, you are a tongue blocker.
Can you do everything represented by the sum of all skills of all other tongue blockers? Probably not. Neither can anyone else!
----------
/Greg
|
Icemaster
1 post
Nov 06, 2010
9:59 AM
|
I've only been playing for about 8 months(4 Pucker and 4 TB) so take my opinion with a grain of salt, but draw bends TB are exactly the same as far as where you are constricting your thoat. The difference is getting your tongue out the the way and using only your throat. I started off bending puckered and found it to be much easier at first. Doing them tongue blocked and getting them to sound as good just took some practice. Play however you feel most comfortable but knowing how to do both is always gonna benefit you in the long run.
|
harpdude61
455 posts
Nov 06, 2010
10:31 AM
|
Great way to put it Greg.
Welcome Icemaster. I need more practice. Maybe I do have the tongue in the wrong position on the side blocks.
|
DeakHarp
244 posts
Nov 06, 2010
11:53 AM
|
I do TB lessons over the phone ....217-218-2194 ..small fee ...
----------
Have Harp Will Travel
www.deakharp.com
|
lumpy wafflesquirt
258 posts
Nov 07, 2010
1:54 AM
|
who cares what it's called, just do it. :^)
----------
"Come on Brackett let's get changed"
|
Littoral
176 posts
Nov 07, 2010
4:05 AM
|
Octaves require tongue blocking so yes, you are a tongue blocker. Your primary point, beyond is you or is you ain't, is about the other possibilities availablle to TB technique. Spot on and I hear you noticing/hearing more of what TB technique can offer.
|
the_happy_honker
43 posts
Nov 07, 2010
4:57 AM
|
Harpdude, I think your first intuition is the correct one. You said:
"I do tongue block, but not sure I can call myself a tongue blocker."
You are what you do most. If you form single notes mostly by lip pursing, then you are a lip purser. If you form single notes mostly by "bite 4, block 3," then you are a tongue-blocker.
|
MP
967 posts
Nov 07, 2010
8:55 AM
|
i'm a capricorn
----------
MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
|
hvyj
801 posts
Nov 07, 2010
9:10 AM
|
@Icemaster: "draw bends TB are exactly the same as far as where you are constricting your throat."
Yep. No need to use the tongue to bend whether one is TB or LP.
Related technique: Get separation/articulation between notes by starting and stopping airflow w/ the diaphragm instead of using the tip of the tongue.
Employing these 2 techniques will, IMHO, produce superior tone, more even attack, superior control and potential to play lines without difficulty at saxophone like speed with accuracy.
@harpdude61: I would call you a mixed embouchure player. I consider myself to be a mixed embouchure player.
|
silpakorn
31 posts
Nov 07, 2010
9:52 AM
|
@hvyj: I've learned a lot from your post here and this is my very first time that I kinda disagree with you. Well, it doesn't mean that I'm sure that I'm right but here's my opinion, you definitely need your tongue to bend sure not the tip of your tongue but from the middle to the back definitely. I think most people think that you don't need tongue to bend because those parts of your tongue that I mentioned, to achieve the bend, you don't control them by focusing on your tongue muscles but instead you focus on opening your throat but if you observe closely enough it's the back of your tongue that actually moves back and forth to lower the pitch down and bring it back.. that's how I understand it. But still.. I might be wrong.
Last Edited by on Nov 07, 2010 10:06 AM
|
hvyj
803 posts
Nov 07, 2010
10:21 AM
|
@silpakorn: Well, what you describe is how most people do it, and that's how most of the instructional materials teach it. But that's not how I play. I can bend with my tongue flat on the floor of my mouth or even with the tip of my tongue on the roof of my mouth. I simply do NOT use that part of my tongue that is in my mouth to draw bend.
I bend by constricting my throat. Maybe it's actually the root of my tongue, but it's so far back it feels like it's my throat. I can bend more accurately, with less effort, more even attack, and much better tone this way. And you can bend very accurately at very fast tempo this way.
Ever try to play a 16th note or 32d note run and get all the bends in the right place, in the right order and at the right pitch? That's what you need to be able to do in order to play certain sax lines at the same speed as a sax and it just can't be done if you use your tongue to bend. (It also can't be done if you use your tongue to articulate separation between notes).
Several years ago, I decided to work on my tone. I saw something in a David Barrett email about making certain tongue movements from farther back in the mouth to improve tone. That started me working on moving everything farther back. i kept working on that for a while until i eventually moved all muscle movement so far back into my throat that i didn't need to use my tongue at all any more. This improved my playing and my tone dramatically.
I'm not the only one who does this. There was a very short video on YouTube of a SPAH meeting where Will Scarlett (who played harp with Hot Tuna) is talking about this technique, but that part of the video ends very abruptly. Ray Beltran who posts on Harp-l and has been a coach at Jon Gindick Jam Camps plays this way. I think Harpwrench has also posted about this if I recall correctly.
Anyway, you absolutely positively do not NEED to use that part of the tongue that is in your oral cavity to play draw bends. Now, that being said, the reality is that most players DO use the tongue to bend and that's how most instructional materials tell you to do it. But it's not the only way to do it and, IMHO, it's certainly not the best way to do it.
Icemaster appears to have stumbled on to this technique, and I speculate he did so because he wasn't influenced by popular instructional materials that would have told him to do it differently.
Last Edited by on Nov 07, 2010 10:45 AM
|
harpdude61
463 posts
Nov 09, 2010
1:47 PM
|
I also bend from the throat. My tongue is down and as far back as possibile.The end of my tongue is touching very low on my bottom gums.
|
groyster1
546 posts
Nov 09, 2010
2:02 PM
|
@Deak
you told me doing octave splits is not tongue blocking
|
DanP
159 posts
Nov 09, 2010
5:25 PM
|
I've always thought playing octaves is a part of tongue blocking just as slap tongue effects is a part of tongue blocking.
|
ZackPomerleau
1264 posts
Nov 09, 2010
9:07 PM
|
I think to be a Tongue Blocker it should be your most used embouchure. Of course, so many use both nowadays including myself, and I don't mean I consider myself both because I do octaves, it's simply because I tongue block bend and do tongue slaps and what mot. Half of the time, if not more, is tongue blocked. It is more comfortable unless I need to do overblows or fast licks (well, SOME fast licks).
|
chromaticblues
273 posts
Nov 10, 2010
6:30 AM
|
harpdude I'd say yes, but zack has a point. I'd say keep practicing the chording by lifting your tongue. Just practice simple stuff like: blow 6 and lift your tongue three times in a rythmic manor. then draw 5, blow 5, draw 4, blow 4, draw 3 and blow 3. That will get you use to were the holes are while tongue blocking how the chords sound at each stop. I do something that is real easy and sounds great! It sounds like your doing so much more than you really are to. Do a tongue slap on the 3 blow. Then play the 123 draw chord twice fast. Repeat that a couple times. Then go back to doing the scale down. You can always throw in some of the licks you know and just slow it down so you can use the chording as the standout effect.
If you have no idea what the hell I'm talking about you are more than welcome to call me and I'll explain it. 401 284 1192
|
barbequebob
1425 posts
Nov 10, 2010
7:49 AM
|
If you are TRULY a tongue blocker, it's when that's one of your main embouchures for getting SINGLE notes and NOT octaves. Tons of players who LP for single notes do octaves with the tongue and so that does not mean they're primarily a tongue blocker and that's the real truth.
I use both methods, often switching back and forth in mid phrase, but again, it is NOT because you can play octaves, which many LP players use to get them as well as tonge blockers, but true TBing is when that's how you're getting SINGLE notes.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
DanP
160 posts
Nov 10, 2010
8:20 AM
|
barbequebob, would you consider a person who lip purses to get bent notes but tongue blocks for everything else to be a tongue blocker?
|
barbequebob
1427 posts
Nov 10, 2010
8:31 AM
|
A total tongue blocker will also get their bends TB'ed as well, so not quite, unfortunately.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
Tuckster
765 posts
Nov 10, 2010
8:36 AM
|
I think the vast majority of players that have any time on the instrument are mixed embouchure players. Pure TB or LP are a minority. That theory does not apply to beginners,of course.
|
groyster1
551 posts
Nov 11, 2010
9:03 AM
|
thanks again barbeque bob you a most informant forum member and love to read your posts
|
