OK, I've accepted the fact that with regular gigging, reeds do go south, it's an occupational hazard. But I seem to be particularly hard on the #4 draw on a C diatonic. Doesn't matter what make, I've blown 'em all out, from Marine Bands to Special 20s to Bushman Delta Frosts to Lee Oskars. Same reed every time, and they always go really flat or just don't play at all. Is this a common phenomenon, or is it just me? Any commiseration, advice, etc. welcome.
I just joined, so I apologize if this has actually been covered before. Great forum!
Well if the harps are all responding the same I think that's clear that YOU need to make a change by using less breath pressure. I think BBQbob will more eloquently state what you need to do though.
Air control, air control, air control! You're most likely just trying to wail on the 4 draw/bend and putting too much breath force into the note. Not uncommon at all, just something to consciously work on and experiment with. I thought blowing out reeds was what all the good harp players did when I was doing it, that I was playing so much and so hard the reeds just couldn't last too long. But the opposite is true. Better players=better control of the air stream. @MLo- Yeah BBQBob might chime in and have much better info on all this (it's alot of where I first started realizing I had it wrong)
it's not rocket science. the 4 draw is just tuned and pitched how it is to get the sound it gets. i've probably blown 5 or 6 DOZEN 4 draws in the past 20 years.
not so much now. i think for me part of it is, i learned not to suck it out of the harp, in 2nd position, and part is i play more in 3rd and some in 1st, much more than say 10 years ago. mainly though, it's a question of taking it easier on that reed in general.
the other MUST i have adopted is to keep 2 of my high-use, high mortality harps in my case. i don't keep a "practice set", my harps is my harps and they go out the door with me whenever. gigs, jams, recording, or rehearsing at home. so i HAVE to keep my case in good shape over all. i have doubles in A, C, D, G, and both a high and low F. in C and D i even may have triples.
something else i'm experimenting with is, certain harps sound better in 2nd, others in 3rd. so i keep one of each handy. or more. this has to do with tuning more than anything.
find a way to sound great on that 4 draw without killing the reed. more amp volume and more finesse.
The 4 and 5 are the most common reeds to blow out. I have compared notes with many players - everyone seems to go through this period - it comes from not having fully developed the muscles and technique to accomplish the bends EASILY yet. Note that the 5 can't be bent but 1/4 step and the 4 only 1/2 step - when you're learning to bend you can inadvertently try to bend them too far. Because the 2 and 3 can be bent much further you tend not to stress them as much - you may not even be able to easily hit those reeds' deepest bends. But as you get better the problem will simply disappear.
One day you will realize you haven't replaced a harp in a long time. I haven't blown out a reed in a long time now. Used to go through Special 20's like crazy. ---------- /Greg
It's from bending the note all the way down to the floor of the bend and cranking on it too hard. That can be a cool pitch in some contexts, but other times it's just a badly intonated bent note, very flat of what the "real" note would be on a keyboard. 4 draw is one of the most common, but some people's pet broken reed is the 5 draw, others the 7 blow, etc. It's a habit that can be broken, aim for halfway to the floor of the bend on the 4 draw instead of automatically going all the way.
Last Edited by on Oct 26, 2010 8:41 PM
Unfortunately, the cold, hard, brutal truth here is that it has absolutely ZERO to do with the tuning or the harmonica or quality control issues at all. Since this is always happening on the same reed REGARDLESS of brand/model/make, it`s blatantly obvious that it`s your playing technique that`s the REAL problem and it`s obvious that you are clearly guilty of using WAAAAAAY too much breath force, ESPECIALLY when bending notes. 98% of newbies and 50-75% of intermediate players are guilty of this and usually more so if they`re teaching themselves because they`re usually not around a good player who won`t think twice about getting in your face about it ASAP, as many players often have no clue as to how hard they`re really playing. What happens from this BAD playing technique is that from the excessive force is that you`ve put the reed under so much needless stress that microscopic cracks AKA stress fractures and once this happens, the reed gets too far out of tune to ever retune it, the reed is blown out, and in a worst case scenerio, the reed breaks apart and you could possibly swallow it. By continuing to use bad playing technique, what you`re doing is DAMAGING your harps in no uncertain terms. What`s the right amount? Basically play just loud enough that you don`t wake up a baby sleeping in the next room. You need to ramp it back by a good 50%. Once you take the necessary woodshedding time to learn this, not only will your harps last 50-80% longer, you will avoid being winded, your agility, tone, intonation/articulation and accuracy of bends and overblows will improve dramatically ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte.
Yo Listen to BBQ-B Please ,i allso think we need to work on some notes to add to a page for questions of this type pop up all the time we can say go to Page 101:)
TN-Frank Im not picking on you or rideing your ass mate :) or do i want an Argument :)
I didn't wake up this morening to Piss people off you have offerd the worst advise above i have heard From a Bigginer Player sorry mate it's true:)
Hang with the gearheads for a While mate :)
OK Brothers those of you who think I'm being Narky Sarcastic, or Picking on Old Mate Rideing His Ass, way off the Mark did i need to say it Yes i think i did and its a fair comment:) ---------- Cheers:)
Q-1 If you're not blowing out any other reeds then it's probably not your technique..
The above is advise on technique Our Bro has Blown out every known harp to mankind it is Clearly his Technique..
Experieced Players will read this post and know this strait away..
You say you blew out a Harp in a week this is rank rookie behavior and poor Technique
Q-2 I know my 5 draw went out on that Old Standby in less then a week so I just think it was because it was a cheap, Chinese harp, not technique.
No it won't matter what Harp you buy you will be Blowing out more harps i watched your vid, no Im Talking about your Playing I'm Talking Technique,
Let the Players Talk about Playing ie Technique, and the tinkers talk about tinkering Keep tinkering, when your ready for advise on how to bend and tongue Blocking, I'm sure you will be offerd the correct advise from the correct people..
Im not bagging you out or trying to upset you it is fact if you can Dig it,,Dig it if not chuck a classic Frank wobbly i hope Iv'e coverd all bases now lets have Smiley faces:)
Thats it i won't be responding to this subject futher more:) ---------- Cheers:)
Frank don't take my Brash Honesty as being NASTY i pull no Punches in Australia I'm known as a no Bullshit type of guy:)
Cool throw the question around as said above the 4 draw gets a pounding most often when Noobs start out
Holes 1 2 3 5 6 7 8 9 10 are not realy getting Hammerd by Noobs at the moment in there leval of playing,ie Draw bend, Blow bends and Overblows so the reeds are not being stressed.
But Poor Old Hole 4 gets dropped to the Floor like when you 1st learnt how to do a Burn out Hit the Muther hard drop it to the floor go Brother Go, but half way up the track you drop the box better learn to fan the clutch next time:) ---------- Cheers
The thing many players don't realize is regardless of how often any reed is constantly being played, too much breath force, ESPECIALLY on when bending notes (mainly because the average player tends to play even harder when bending because from frustration from when they were trying to teach themselves to do it, they're CONSTANTLY trying to force it to happen, which is THE WRONG THING TO DO, and they never unlearned this bad playing technique), the harder it gets played, the greater the stress is placed on a reed, the quicker the chance for blowout occurs REGARDLESS of who makes them.
I know plenty of players who use cheaper harps like Huangs, do plenty of bending, but have REAL breath control and better overall playing technique and SELDOM blow out harps, and Huangs are often not listed among players as something really high in quality so blaming the instrument is flat out a crock and an unwillingness to admit to bad playing technique, and it's the easy way out.
Now since he's also blown out Lee Oskars, that also says something because, tho I'm not a fan of those, they have a proven record of longevity more than any other stock harp and it's not unusual for players to get 5+++ years or even 15 years with bending or (when properly setup to do it) overblowing played and this is also based on a gigging harp player averaging 10 gigs per month.
If you've blown out a LO in 6 months or less, it's BLATANLY obvious that its too much breath force and bad playing technique and NOT the harmonica.
How long should harps last?? Based on gigging 10 nights per month, with good breath control and good overall playing technique, the minimum you should be able to get out of ANY stock harp is a year. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Oct 27, 2010 12:57 PM
Great stuff everyone, thanks. I suspect poor technique is the answer and am not surprised since I am completely self-taught, and obviously got into some very bad habits when I first started playing 40 years ago before forums like this existed to help correct them. I learned to bend notes almost immediately, and coasted along at a very low level of skill for a few years, then just stopped playing (marriage, kids, work, life). Now, for the past 3 years, I've taken it up again seriously, starting from scratch. One thing I do know: I was holding the harp completely wrong, and was creating way too much suction when drawing. I was constantly flatting notes, even when not bending them. I've corrected that by adopting the standard "index finger on top, thumb on bottom" method, and it took me a long while to just become comfortable with that. So I'm tryng to relearn the instrument the right way. Funny you mentioned Huangs, Barbecuebob. I own two of those, in Bb and D, play them regularly, and have never blown out a reed on either of them. Go figure. And speaking of excessive force, BB, you've got some very valuable advice, and I really appreciate it, but can you cool it with the ALL CAPS? I can hear you just fine in lower case :) Thanks again, Stan
Stan, the reason why I use caps is to place parrticular emphasis on some words to get a point very firmly across and not used as yelling. There are quite a few people who tend to skim over things quick and not fully read things. Besides, it's kinda more like doing things in more of a real speaking voice and how many people speak totally in a monotone?? If I spoke like it was no caps, then quite a few people would fall asleep and totally miss the point.
As far as the harps blowing out, I haven't blown one out since 2003 and I am largely self taught and what I'm telling you is from experience and I did many of those bad things until one day when I was at the long defunct club called The Speakeasy in 1978 seeing Big Walter Horton with a friend of mine from NYC, who after his shows were over (I did get to know that man), my buddy asked him how he did his intro for his cover of the LW tune on Alligator, Can't Hold On Much Longer. Walter had put all his stuff away for the night and I had the only harp around, so using my harp (he didn't use customs because customs didn't hit the scene until 1991 and BW had already passed away 10 years before that), wheras almost everyone I knew usually played it really hard, here he was, playing the intro like the recording (minus the amplification) so softly, like a whisper (and from knowing him, he often wouldn't tell you like he did it unless he knew you) yet his sound projected unbelievable where most guys hitting it pedal to the metal just didn't project for s**t.
Later that night, when I got home, I tried doing it the same way, and there it was, and he had quickly opened my eyes and ears about breath control and then I went back to practicing against all of my other harp heroes, and guess what, same deal.
As far as how you hold the harmonica goes, for the diatonic, there really isn't a totally right or wrong way to hold it as long as you can get a good, tight cup, but with very little effort plus it also has to be comfortable for you as well.
The most frequently blown out notes in diatonic harmonicas ae as follows:
4 draw 5 draw 9 blow
In addition to the ones listed above, on harps from key of D and higher in patch the following note also gets blown out frequently:
4 blow
Why 4 blow?? On harps D and higher, they usually use a shorter slot reed, and when you do bends from holes 1-6, the reed actually doing the bending are the blow reeds, and from holes 7-10 the ones actually doing the bending are the draw reeds. (If you don't believe it, remove both cover plates, then bend 4 draw, and then once you begin the bend, place your finger on 4 blow, and you'll see the bend stops altogether).
Because of hitting the note with so much breath force, on those harps, you're actually stressing the crap out of BOTH reeds in that hole and the reed that's doing the actual bending can't hold up to the pressure.
I know the description of hitting a note too hard, especially on the bends may not be exactly politically correct, but unfortunately the best description of it is the caveman macho dumb a*s method, and why caveman?? Remember all the cartoons of the cavemen where to get a woman to want you, the caveman takes a huge club and beats her over the head into submission and using too much breath force is basically doing exactly that.
If you're constantly flatting notes even without the bends, it is also very obvious that you're using WAAAY too much breath force in your playing. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
The reason why NOD is getting on your case, is that people are asking for EXPERT advice.
They are not looking for a best guess.
There are many pros and people who have been playing for a LONG time.
It is INCONSIDERATE of you to continue to comment on every thread as if you know what you are talking about. It is misleading to other new folks who will be set down the wrong road with your uninformed opinions that you state so readily without any warning that it is your opinion as a new player.
Much of what you say, I can see parroted from other posts you have recently read. Just because you have the information, does not mean you are ready to inform or teach on the subject.
Ask QUESTIONS and stop giving ANSWERS.
You can obviously share your ideas, just preface them as "in my experience" or something like that.
We would be going to the TNFrank forum if YOU had all the answers.
Please, be part of the fun here. You do add a certain "je ne sais quoi" to the forum.
Just be judicious and considerate before you jump in to the fray. That is all we are asking.
For me it's the 5 draw. I really need to work on that. I was able to retune the 5 draw on a Seydel in C last night (at least for now), but the reeds are so short and narrow on the Seydel in D that the reed broke right off when I tried to do anything with it. Always the same reed. If 5 draw only bends a 1/4 step, I'm clearly hitting it way too hard. The funny thing is, it's more often than not on a G harp that I blow out the 5 draw (despite my examples above), and that's got some long reeds! ----------
I think you bring that knowledge to the table. I can truly appreciate that.
I am not asking you to shut up.
I am saying that your harmonica knowledge is limited albeit growing rapidly. You may bring all of that to the table.
What I am saying is that there are those here who have APPLIED harmonica knowledge.
You have many skills to bring to bare against problems in your way. That is great. Sometimes it is better to listen than to share indiscriminately.
Perhaps it is the nature of the way you learn.
I have already adjusted to it, perhaps I don't like it when people run at the mouth and don't respect where respect is due. Call me a traditionalist.
I am done commenting about it. I'll move on and you'll move on. I thought I was helping. I can't work through all of the defenses. I'm sure if we were in person it would be different.
When I first started playing and learning to bend, I blew out a lot of four hole draw reeds. But as I started bending easier, the failures decreased. I think that players learn to bend and put unusual pressure on the reed. I can't ever remember blowing out the number four in straight harp But a harp is doomed to failure sooner or later , thats Life
Wow I will have to guard my words here, I confess to no knowledge about metals,I just play my little tunes,and sing my little songs like Blind Melon Chitlin, Heck I don't even have a blues name.
There ARE people who anneal their reeds. I don't know if any of the customizers here do it anymore, but I am sure they have at least experimented with it in the past.
BBQ, if you want to try some variations on CAPS, try some of these! I think people complain about caps because a lot of the time they are used so often as yelling. It's not that you are yelling, but that we've been conditioned to read them that way. Some people don't like exclamation marks!!! But they will get my exclamation marks when they pry the key out from under my cold dead finger!!! Some people don't like smilies either. :(
