I don't feel like listening because it's late, but those players you mentioned, in my opinion, were all 'raw.' Most rock guys were 'mediocre' or not-so-good. Just my opinion, of course.
@ TNF: I don't agree with you there. I've seen poster after poster get agitated when you've asked for our opinions, received them and then proceeded to argue everything we say to the nth degree. You've done that with me.
Your usual fall back position - as far as I can recall - is that your guitar playing gives you considerable musical expertise, from which - admittedly without an intensely close reading - I infer that you didn't really need our opinions after all.
Whatever the reason/s is/are for you and the rest of the forum 'butting heads', inevitably it lowers the standard of the forum when, as is all too often the case, it descends into pointless tit-for-tat squabbling and pissing contests. Your threads often draw huge numbers of posts, but, rarely with any useful information being exchanged or imparted at the end of it all. They are often a bit like the 'Jerry Springer Show' of MBH land, or the car accident that everyone feels compelled to slow down and take a look at.
Even this thread is - now I've thrown my 2 cents in - an argument about why you argue with the rest of us.
As for myself, I'm done with offering you advice. I'm not all that sure you actually want it, anyway. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick
happy honker says:"So, Frank, if I like jazz vocals and you like death-metal vocals, then I should show respect for your preference by liking death-metal vocals, too?"
Happy_honker, I don't see anywhere in his post where he said, or implied, that you had to like what he likes.
I may be wrong, but I find myself agreeing with an assesment that Adam made on another thread. I think bringing up examples of these "not so great harp players" is really a thinly veiled attempt to justify his current level of harp playing, as opposed to really showing us what he aspires to be as a harp player. But the thing is there's absolutely no need to jusitfy his current ability on the harp. Frank, you've only been playing about a month, nobody expects you to be a fantastic player yet, nor should you be expecting that of yourself. You've only been playing a short while and you're doing well and you're on the right track(although I would suggest more time practicing, and less time on here quibbling over unimportant things).
If you really do have an interest in the harp (which I think is pretty obvious by the amount of enthusiasm you have and the amount of praticipation you've put into this forum) you are really selling yourself short by getting discouraged and essentially saying "well I only aspire to be a sub-par player like these guys". I really do think that you'd like to be a good harp player, but you have to realise it will take time, don't let that discourage you and make you try to justify your current ability by telling us that you only aspire to be a mediocre harp player. Because it completely unncessary!
Just keeping working and you'll get to be where you want to be someday. When people critique your playing and give you advice, listen to them, don't get self-consious and try to argue and tell them you're not interested in being a good harp player.
As people have said here before, bad harp players give the instrument a bad name and makes it difficult for us to be taken seriously, so if you essentially say or imply that you only aspire to be a less than mediocre harp player, you need to realise it's going to irritate some people here. BTW, this doesn't mean we expect you to become a great player (especially after only a month or so of playing, it takes many years), the people here are just passionate about learning their craft and tend to get irritated when people come across as having the attitude of "it's just a harmonica, it's not worth my time to learn to play it well".
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2010 8:10 AM
Hi, my name is Mathieu. I'm form Quebec. Been playing for a year and a few months.
I've been reading your posts recently and I think I understand your argument. Like you, I'm not aiming to become a harp virtuoso like Ricci (just to name one).It's not MY thing AND I don't have the time).
However, there are many levels of playing between someone like yourself and someone like Jason Ricci. When I read your posts, I get the idea that you see things in a dichotomous manner (eg. either your a very basic harp player who plays for fun OR you're a harp genious who has an infinity of tricks).
Personnaly, I would very much want to be somewhere in between in a few years. Where do you want to be?
TNFrank,(I swore to myself I wouldn't comment again on one of your threads, but it is hard to avoid them)
There are plenty of people who visit here who may never get past "twinkle twinkle little star." In fact, they may be perfectly happy to do just that. We are happy for them! (we, of course hope they do it with a blue third)
They do not spend all of their time trying to convince us that playing "twinkle twinkle" is enough. (or that they can still play it on a $1 plastic Chinese harp)
There is NO lack of understanding on our part here.
TNFrank, you can do whatever the hell you want. You will not win any respect here until you stop your obtuse defensiveness, have fun, and play - just play. For goodness sake, just play.
(edit: We'd be perfectly happy listening to you play Molly Hatchet! I grew up on southern rock. Just do it and don't worry who likes it or not - that's your thing. We'll help you get there.)
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2010 11:10 AM
@everybody except TNFrank: If you read what TNFrank wrote in his original post and what you've all written, I hope you'll discover that you failed, in every respect, to address his main point. How many of you actually listened to the Molly Hatchet video all the way through? Or are you all so learned that you didn't need to? Instead of judgments and accusations, why don't you try actually listening to and responding to the evidence TNFrank presents? That would actually give you guys some moral standing in this thread. Right now you don't have much, although some of you are trying to exert forebearance You're dragging in stuff from other threads, but none of you are responding to the evidence TNF has presented here.
@TNFrank: I've listened to the Molly Hatchet all the way through. You've asked us to listen to the harp part. I hear harmonica from :27 to :37, and from 2:40 to 2:47. That's what I'd call basic biker-bar harp. I can take anybody off the street--somebody who has never played harp in their life--and teach them to play the "harp part" in this video in about one week. I can teach them the 45 draw warble in the first session; I call that "instant harp" when I teach beginners. The 5 draw and blow that follow the warble will take a little longer for a raw beginner to get as single notes (rather than as partial double stops). And the bend 4 draw will take them the rest of the week. Then they'll have it.
If your point is that everybody in the world deserves to be able to have good healthy fun with the harmonica by playing the most basic possible stuff with a southern rock band, I'll agree. But if the "harp part" in this video is really the best you've got by way of trying to explain why you feel somewhat misunderstood on this website, I think you need to reassess your own goals. There's nothing wrong with basic biker-bar harp, but most of us here aspire to more than that. I certainly hope you do! We're not elitists, but we're serious about the instrument. Whoever played that solo with Molly Hatchet just isn't very serious about the instrument.
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2010 9:47 AM
@ kudzurunner: "You're dragging in stuff from other threads, but none of you are responding to the evidence TNF has presented here." Yes, that is correct. I am basing my response on conversations that took place in other threads. That is because TNFrank has, 'figured out why some of us keep butting heads...' I took my cue from the use of the present continuous - keep butting - in his opening sentence, as I expect some others of us did. To decide that any response should be based on this thread rather than those in the past is just playing with semantics. TNF's opening refers implicitly to the past, as did my response.
As for seeking any 'moral standing in this thread', that was never my intention. I am simply stating what has irritated me on here in recent weeks, without claiming that that position is either right or wrong. ---------- YouTube SlimHarpMick
"@TNFrank: I've listened to the Molly Hatchet all the way through. You've asked us to listen to the harp part. I hear harmonica from :27 to :37, and from 2:40 to 2:47. That's what I'd call basic biker-bar harp. I can take anybody off the street--somebody who has never played harp in their life--and teach them to play the "harp part" in this video in about one week. I can teach them the 45 draw warble in the first session; I call that "instant harp" when I teach beginners. The 5 draw and blow that follow the warble will take a little longer for a raw beginner to get as single notes (rather than as partial double stops). And the bend 4 draw will take them the rest of the week. Then they'll have it."
Oh-oh...I think I suck at harp worse than I thought.
Honkin on bobo: Maybe I'm just a heck of a teacher. :)
@TNFrank: This forum, as the creed notes, makes a space for many kinds of harp player, and all skill levels. The great majority of us are questers in some way: we're interested in improving ourselves, and in helping each other improve. So we have infinite patience, for example, for beginners who show up and say, "How does [such and such great player] get that sound?" We have somewhat less patience for people who say, "Sure, the piano is a remarkable instrument, but what's wrong with just settling back and playing 'Chopsticks'? And hey, while I'm at it, Michel Camillo and Art Tatum don't even play with feeling, they're just about lots of notes." There's plenty for you to learn here, if you're interested in learning. But yes, I'll agree with you: if you ASPIRE to play like the guy in the Molly Hatchet clip, and if that's truly where you set your bar, this forum probably isn't for you. The great majority of us want more than that.
"How many of you actually listened to the Molly Hatchet video all the way through?"
I sure did.
"Or are you all so learned that you didn't need to?"
That seems a bit snarky.
"I hope you'll discover that you failed, in every respect, to address his main point."
If I'm not mistaken I believe his main point was that he thinks the main source of the conflicts he's been having are the result of the fact that many here approach the harp from a different perspective than he does. Mick did in fact address this point. I agree part of the problem has to do with different perspectives when it comes to the harp, but I agree with Mick in that I don't think it has much at all to do with the fact that most people here are blues players and listen to guys like Cotton, the Walters, etc. and he listens to Southern Rock. I honestly don't think it has anything to do with it. This forum has people who are interested in all different types of harmonica playing, not just blues, and not just super technical highly polished harmonica playing either. And yet these people don't seem to have the same sort of conflicts with the forum. There are people here who are interested in simpler forms of harmonica playing and have no interest in becoming really technically skilled players, but these same people are also interested at getting better at what they do. They listen to those more experienced in the hopes of learning more. They take the instrument seriously and they don't try to argue that it's okay to play sloppy because they're simply not interested in becoming a great harp player (that's the difference in perspective that I'm talking about).
I pointed out some of the reasons I believed he was butting heads with several people. I believe that was addressing the point. If he'd posted this video and simply asked "how can I play more like this?" I don't think there would have been any problem. I, and I'm sure others, would have been happy/willing to discuuss it and give advice.
He continues to say that "Not everyone who picks up a Harmonica has dreams of becoming the next Jason Ricci", and yet no one here as ever claimed otherwise. No one here thinks that if you want to play the harp you have to have intentions of becoming a master of the instrument.
I think Frank would like to become a good/decent harp player, but I think he's become defensive and now feels the need to argue his case for not being, or becoming, a better harp player. And it's completely unneccessary. I may be completely wrong, maybe he really aspires to only play very basic beginner harp, that's fine, even then there's no reason for him to start up a thread trying to defend his aspirations to be a mediocre harp player. If that's what he's going to do, then great, do it, but why does he feel the need to try and argue his point of view and try and get us to agree? It just seems to me that he's self-conscious or insecure. It's like when he contiually tried to argue and convince us all that he was making the best decision in buying a bunch of cheap harps, people gave their opinions, which were contrary to his, and he didn't listen (which is fine, that's his choice, although right after he got them he was already talking about selling them) instead he felt the need to continue to argue why he was right and kept trying to get people to agree with him. Why? Just do what you're going to do. It seems like the whole idea behind this thread is the same, him trying to convince us of something. My guess is that may have something to do with some of the other people frustrations on this thread.
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2010 12:14 PM
"Still, I kind of feel like a guy who's wandered into a Jazz Bar without knowing it then when the band asks for requests he yells out "Freebird" and everyone looks at him kind of funny."
Walk into any kind of bar and yell out "Freebird" and you will be looked at funny. ;-)
BTW, I don't have any real problem with Frank, some things have frustrated me, but I get over it pretty quick. Some people have said some pretty unneccessary things towards him, and I tried to say something in his defense a few times. Hopefully the things I've said aren't overly harsh, I just write what I feel at the moment. I do hope Frank sticks around, I think this forum has a lot to offer, and if frank is interested it could help him on his way to becoming a better harp player.
I've been fooling around with harmonicas since I was 5 years old. Yes, "fooling around" was a chosen phrase.
Growing up, my house was filled with jazz and blues, as both my parents loved music. It rubbed off on the kids. I always tried to make my harmonicas fit that music. Was I successful? Usually not by any standards or opinions from the ilk on this Forum. But, my parents never tried to discourage me from exploring those efforts.
Years went by, always with my harps for my own self entertainment, amusement and companionship. Gradually, I got better at making my harp fit a tune at any given time. I didn't "learn" this, I just figured it out as I went. As a young adult, I found myself making my music fit with rock and roll because that's what my peers, friends and myself listened to.
I ate up all things harmonica in the meantime. If it was music with a harp in it, I wanted to hear it. Country, jazz, showtunes, rock, and blues. Whatever, it was harmonica.
Along the way, I just discovered and enlightened myself through accidental findings as I explored the harp. Not as a "student" of the harp, but more as a friend of the harp.
When we all entered the age of computers, I stumbled onto the Harp-L. As a harp junkie, it opened my eyes even further and I eagerly read all the posts and discovered that I had a lot in common with my journey and other's. I read about techniques, with names for things that I had found out on my own through mimicry and experimentation. Very cool.
The first time I read about "overblows", I skimmed right past it, figuring that it was too far over my head for me to worry about it. I had all the notes I needed and didn't need any more to play enough for myself. Then, that "overblow" word just got more frequent and more frequent. After a couple of years, out of curiosity I had Mikey Pelican show me what all the fuss was about. At first, I treated them like a novelty or trick. Before I knew it, overblows were showing up in my everyday music.
My advice to you is this:
Relax. Don't fight it. If you like Southern Rock, well so be it. If you like Stravinsky, fine. To each his own.
When I started playing I basically didn't play for anyone at first. I've identified a recurring trend in my life. I put too much value in what other people think, and suddenly something I enjoy becomes something that has pressure and expectations around it. I decided that I was going to play harmonica to entertain myself, to have something that I did for me.
So far, it's worked. The danger of putting yourself out there isn't just that someone won't like what you are doing, it's that you'll start doing what your doing to impress for external reasons instead of internal reasons. I enjoy hanging out on the forum (probably a little too much), and it's for a lot of external reasons. I like helping people find information. I like learning things. If posting a clip of my music helps me with either one of those things, I'll post a clip, but I deliberately try to keep the joy I feel playing as an internal thing so that it's about the music.
@TNFrank "I kind of feel like a guy who's wandered into a Jazz Bar without knowing it then when the band asks for requests he yells out "Freebird" and everyone looks at him kind of funny."
Frank- if you spent all that time you did posting actually playing, you wouldn't be asking this stuff. What you want is simple. At this point in your playing,there's nothing you need on this forum. All you need to do is shut up and play the damn thing! (With all due respect and some tough love.)
I think I have figured out something too. Naturally everyone thinks their opinions are correct. The problem arises when someone tries to discredit others opinions.
If Franks aspires to be a southern rock harp player then we should respect his opinion that this is a good goal. But Frank should also respect that very few of us agree with this opinion and he should not try to convince us other wise.
I've been agreeing with Frank all along, really, but in this thread he's reiterated his stance. But for some reason it sank in more this time, and I agree with him even more.
Here's the thing: He plays guitar. That's his instrument. The harmonica is pretty much just a toy to him...A useful toy but still a toy. He came here, I think, for light conversation and maybe advice on simple matters.
He casually stepped into the low end of the pool with an air mattress and is stunned when Olympians all around him are pushing him to do 10 laps with the butterfly stroke and take the high dive, etc.
I think the Olympians should recognize what he's here for and give advice like, "Hey, buddy, the water's warmer over on that side." If he argues with that...well, it's just his way. He seems like a nice guy to me.
There's a good chance that after he floats around a while on that air mattress, he'll get off and do a little swimming. Then maybe later, some heavier swimming....
Frank: Do you like the harp in Roadhouse Blues? In When the Levee Breaks?
THAT'S why I think you'll eventually be getting off that air mattress, but I see no reason for anybody to push you off of it. You'll get off when and IF you want to. Period. In the meantime, enjoy the water here.
Have I assessed your position accurately enough?
Edit: Ahhh...Buddha jumped in front of me. :)
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2010 2:13 PM
Harmonica, bass and drums-no guitar. I've heard Hakan Ehn playing to bass and drums backing tracks, and I like it. I've wondered if such a trio could exist in real life. You've answered that question. Sounds interesting, but did you find lack of guitar to be too limiting at times?
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2010 2:25 PM
I was never limited by not having a chord player (guitar or keys) Did you miss it as a listener?
The heavy use of my effects came from playing in a trio and being forced to change up my sound. I only play with great musicians and if I can't find one that is up to my standards then I just move forward anyway.
AFAIK - I'm the only one to front a harmonica power trio.
---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
I tried the PT a few years ago(albeit not to the degree you accomplished with it, Chris), and had a killer bassist who could simultaneously sample bass lines on the fly and switch over to 'guitar' sounds...but never found the right drummer. Still something I want to explore-in that spare time I have none of. When and if I ever have time, I will need to do some woodshedding with Buddha to acheive what I know I lack in my playing to accomplish the ideas in my head. ----------
Crescent City Harmonica Club Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2010 2:46 PM
No. I absolutely did not miss it as a listener, but wouldn't there be times when you would prefer chords or whatever for this song or that song...Something to change things up a bit?
much of the music around the world doesn't have chordal instruments.
When I say good musicians, I don't mean technical ability alone, they have to be well versed in many styles of music. When we played our set ranged from bebop to blues to jazz to jam to rock to country to classical to indian to arabic to south american music etc... We would often do things by request. The first clip I posted is part 2 to a jam built upon requests. This is part one....
Lots of our stuff is 100% improvised, meaning you walk up to the mic and just play. It's hard to find musicians that are capable of that level of improv. Jason Ricci had a tremendous band and it's too bad he let that group get away. I doubt he'll ever have another collection of players like he did with Shawn and Todd.
This is from a couple of years ago but it's an example of "what do you want to play?" "I don't care. Play whatever you're feeling right now..." So Todd starts, I don't know what the key is or the changes and neither does Shawn but we made something out of it. And I think it sounds good for something that was made up on the spot.
@frank
this one has fretless bass in it. Same trio...
@gene
re: changing things up. I did that by changing the style of music, effects, or amp vs acoustic
Here's another things...same group of guys just different music and vibe
---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2010 2:53 PM
"I think the Olympians should recognize what he's here for and give advice like, "Hey, buddy, the water's warmer over on that side." If he argues with that...well, it's just his way. He seems like a nice guy to me."-gene
Just be careful, sometimes the reason the pool is warmer on one side is pee! ;) ---------- Nate Facebook Thread Organizer
Yes i to have been Following Franks coversations on your Site also, as many of you are Folowing the Adventures of Frank on MBH Forum thanks for Sticking up for MBH were not such a bad Bunch:) but I'm a bit of a wild one they tell me:)
There is a wealth of information to be had here i understand that many of you are 1st time Harp Players Please don't be deterd by the argumentive nature of Frank on the Formum:(
You will see we arn't the Problem or Jerks and Harps Snobs Frank says we are he has no respect, you will soon find this out:(
You will truly advance faster as a learner Player if you wish to Listen and Show respect for the Advice and apreciate the time spent giveing this information:)
So please Don't be deterd From Joining MBH Forum we will Hold out the Hand of Friendship but we do ask that you wade gently into the water, i will respect your questions and give my best advice as will many other Members on the Forum Thanks for your time:)
Please feel free to Copy and Past this to your Forum thanks for your time from N.O.D.:)
Ps MBH Bro's watch this topic
http://www.harmonicaclub.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=3717 ---------- Cheers:)
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2010 8:45 PM
Please Add it in the Beginers Section as My own Offering of friend ship to the other Players that are Following your every move on MBH Forum
There are many Players just starting out on Harmonica,com they will advance much faster on this Forum from the good Advice and Tuition avaliable from beginners to advanced Players Thanks Mate?
NOD as the forum ambassador?? the guy that got booted then did some heavy knee work to get back? the guy that almost got booted again for rants about either religion or sexual preferences or maybe both? you gotta love this forum. truly the american dream.
I dont understand. Whoever has started out on a trek that knowingly takes a mile, with the intentions of going 17 feet? Especially one who has gone 20 miles on another? ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
I don't think you will find much "southern rock harp or biker bar harp." You are going to be borrowing from both blues and country - and you will need both.
Here is an interview with Willie Nelson's harp player Mickey Raphael. He had to figure it all out too and I think it is an interesting interview.
Part 2:
There are people here who play all sorts of music - jazz, ska, classical, irish, folk, Finnish-Anatolian-Laser-Klezmer-Riot, and of course mostly blues.
You can bring up the stuff you like. Just don't go nuts on us.
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2010 8:39 PM
Frank - "Biker Bar Harp" is not a real genre it's a term coined by Adam to describe blues/country style harp, played in a Southern Rock context. I THINK YOU SHOULD RE-READ HIS POST the key point of which is that it is very amateur playing.
You don't listen to blues (nor do I really) you don't want to play blues - OK we get it! unfortunately for you Southern Rock is the bastard son of blues and country. What the harp is doing is blues style - you cannot avoid it.
The example you posted was pretty unskilled harp playing. No! its not always about the skill. Though not Southern Rock, Neil Young, Springsteen and Dylan spring to mind, as singer/songwriter rock guitarists who play a bit of harp (without much skill) but still the music is good. From my point of view though I cannot see any reason why the harp in a Southern Rock context HAS to be played badly (unlike Adam I'm not going to be diplomatic about it) and I'm sure you could find better examples.
If this is truly the level you want to achieve then this isn't the place for you. There may be a few folk who are just wanting a bit of fun, but I think all of them see their development as players as their reason to be here.
You are not going to find a forum for people who have no aspiration, don't want to learn to play the harp well and just want to excuse their lack of skill (but strangely, still have an obsessive compulsion to talk about it endlessly).
If you don't see that, then I think you should stick to the Harmony Central forum where there are some guitar players who, like you, play a bit of harp.
Everyone is welcome here, we were all beginners once - it isn't anything to be ashamed about.
i've never been on a forum where it almost gets suggested that a newcomer leave. most of us have different goals on harp. or different skills we want to achieve. and those goals and skills change, in most cases, as they are met or something new is thrown into the equation. we are on a journey. we take different routes to get where we hope we want to be. it seems many of you are tired of frank's multiple postings and seemingly argumentative attitude. if he bothers you so much, just leave him alone. mick even goes so far as to post that he is done posting! lol
do you guys remember the early days of the forum when folks were positive and full of encouragement? what happened?
@Frank..My first exposure to the Harp was not from the blues....It was Bob Dylan , Neil Young....Then I heard John Mayall play "Room to Move" WOW !!. I then began to explore other forms of music. Rock, Blues and Jazz. (I have that Molly Hatchett record on vinyl) Never got into Jazz...that does not mean it's bad...I just don't care for it. Explore all music..... then you will figure out how it ALL relates, and make you way. ----------
Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. - Charlie Parker
@eharp: TNFrank has been a challenge to this forum to the beginning, and he gave as good as he get. He had an early run-in with Buddha (welcome to the club!) and ended up dissing not just Buddha but this entire forum on another harmonica forum. This wasn't nice, and I and several others called him on it. He remains a challenge to this forum, but I'm OK with that. And it's really no big deal. Many people are having fun here, regardless.
Last Edited by on Oct 16, 2010 8:36 AM
A guy goes into a Chinese restaurant and starts complaining that there was nothing on the menu he wants. All he wants is pizza.
The waiter tells him it is a Chinese restaurant and the dishes are very nice if he's prepared to try them. The other customers offer some suggestions: "The Kung Po chicken is great if you like spicy", "try the Salt and Pepper squid, great if you like seafood"
The guy, gets defensive - "I just want cheese and tomato - nothing fancy"
The waiter tells him again"This is Cantonese food sir, Margherita pizza is not on the menu." The guy starts getting angry - "I just want a pizza!", he shouts, "why don't you understand that?"
The other customers start tutting loudly in the background and the manager comes out...
What should they do next? Carry on patiently suggesting he try something off the menu, or gently suggest that he might be happier at "Alfredo's" next door?
@kudzu: I agree, we need "challenging" people on the forum, if for no other reason than to balance out people like me. I tend to try to make my posts non-offending and neutral. Consequently I get few responses to my posts (and sometimes stop threads dead in their tracks :)) ---------- Ozark Rich __________ ##########
