Bb
234 posts
Oct 14, 2010
8:44 PM
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I'm looking at buying a late 50s Fender Princeton for what I think is a fairly good price tomorrow. I have a 57 Champ that I often play in tandem with a Lectrosonics Maxi Mouse and mic them both for gigs. If I keep them fairly close to my ears I can wring enough stage volume out of them generally to work with my band.
So, again, (experts please weigh in) if the Princeton is a pretty smoking price, would YOU pull the trigger?
Thanks.
-Bob
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Bb
235 posts
Oct 14, 2010
8:47 PM
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PS – the link below will give you a sense of the sound I get with the Champ and Mouse together. My question is if you believe I might achieve a slightly less "boxy" sound if I had the Princeton going instead of the Champ.
Again, I don't hate the tone going on here but..
Thanks.
-Bob
http://www.abc3340.com/global/category.asp?c=189742&clipId=5173699&topVideoCatNo=192263&autoStart=true
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chromaticblues
206 posts
Oct 15, 2010
6:40 AM
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I personally don't like stock fender champs. They sound boxy like you said. If you get an early one one with 6sj7 preamp tube and remove the back on it. That's a nice sound. I tested one once and the guy said "Hey try with out the back on it. It sounds better. Usually this is a no no for harp players. So I politly ignored him and played for a couple minuetes. Then I tryed what he said and man the guy was right. It sound GREAT! Then he said he wanted $900 and wooddyy soon went away.
If the princton has a 6sl7 preamp tube buy it now! Also try removing the back of your champ. If it sound to tinny. Put a higher value cap on the 6v6 cathode. If your worried about collector value put a 47 Mfd beside the 25 Mfd there. You can always remove it you want latter.
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5F6H
326 posts
Oct 15, 2010
8:57 AM
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A late 50's princeton will not have a 6volt octal preamp tube, it will have a 12AX7, but will take any of the 12A#7 tubes.
Ideally it would be good to determine whether it is a 5E2 (has a choke) or a 5F2A, the 5F2A is great, especially for chromatic. I would remove the 500pf bright cap between the vol & tone pots for diatonic harp...you could also experiment with removing the cathode bypass caps at preamp & power tube, one by one to see if none, some or all suit you. These caps should be replaced from original as part of a service so this will not impact on resale value, just pop them back in if you want to sell at a later date. Power supply electrolytics should also be replaced if original or >20yrs old.
Last Edited by on Oct 15, 2010 10:49 AM
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tmf714
268 posts
Oct 15, 2010
9:12 AM
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The 5A2 tv front had a 6SJ7 tube-manufactured between 48-53 with an 8" speaker.
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MP
915 posts
Oct 15, 2010
9:12 AM
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if you're going to drop some bread, a '50s deluxe is a good choice. also, i like the '60s princetons better than the '50s.
of course vintage guitar magazine ruined the buyers market on all these amps. good luck.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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6SN7
98 posts
Oct 15, 2010
11:44 AM
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If you want it buy it. They look and sound great. Just got to baby it cause it is 50 years old.
As much as I love old amps, i got a 58 deluxe, i leave them at home.
I use a cruncher, works great and it takes a kicking and keeps on ticking.
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Bb
236 posts
Oct 15, 2010
12:27 PM
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Hey, 6SN7. I have a Cruncher as well. I'm finding that I like it a bit less than when I first got it. Not sure why. Just not feeling it like I used to with that amp.
-Bob
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5F6H
328 posts
Oct 15, 2010
12:28 PM
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@ 6SN7 "They look and sound great. Just got to baby it cause it is 50 years old.
As much as I love old amps, i got a 58 deluxe, i leave them at home."
A properly serviced 50's/60's Fender will be as reliable, if not more reliable than most current production amps. Any amp can suffer the odd cap/resistor/pot failure, if it sounds good let the world hear it.
It's like the old Confucious riddle, "If a tree falls in a forest and ther is no-one there to hear it, does it make a sound?" If no-one hears it, what does it matter? Let your old amps be heard, they're not doing what they were built to do if they're just kept at home.
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MP
920 posts
Oct 15, 2010
12:30 PM
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a 58 deluxe 'll make yah feel it.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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chromaticblues
214 posts
Oct 16, 2010
2:15 PM
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I have 1958 Gibson GA-20 that is a great harp amp. I'm not affraid of bringing it anywhere, but I completely rebuilt it except for the transformers and the sockets. I think alot of people are missing the boat on old Gibsons. They were not built as well as fenders, but the driver circuit they designed is great for harp. Anyone that has an old beatup 6v6 push pull amp. Look up the Gibson Ga-40. The one that had a sharp cutoff pentode first stage preamp tube. I think it was a 5179, but I'm not not sure. Anyway the driver circiut is the important part. That is blues harp nirvana right there. See the difference is the fender deluxe sounds great cracked. at 3 or 4 it sounds clean and country. My GA-20 sounds great at 3 or 4! The tone is thicker and actually makes me play slower just so I let everbody hear what it's capable of. There must be other people that have discovered this. I know one problem is they didn't sell well so there aren't as many around.
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6SN7
100 posts
Oct 17, 2010
8:33 AM
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@5F6H- Yeah, I hear, the amp is reliable and I love playing it. But on two occassions I have had amps knocked over by errant dancers who lost the grip of their partners and fell into the bandstand. It's not like my deluxe is resting on a perch @ a Hard Rock cafe, I do use it at rehearsals and the odd gig. If I didn't use it, I would sell it to one of the 6000 people that have asked to buy it. It was my first amp so I am partial to it.
@Bb: I used a 4x10 amp for years for gigs. I bought the cruncher because it is good for smaller rooms. The tone is different and perhaps a bit limited compared to the 4x10, but it has worked out well playing with a band. I have played a cruncher w/ a 12 and a 10 and I thought it sounded great but was tone range was limited. My cruncher has 2-8's that make it brighter and it cuts great through the mix. For playing in a chicago style blues band, it is money well spent.
@ chromaticblues- I had a GA-40. Awesome amp when it worked, but it had to be miced. It just didn't cut the mix.
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2010 8:36 AM
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hvyj
718 posts
Oct 17, 2010
9:39 AM
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Don't know that this has much do with the topic, but FWIW, I took my Princeton Reverb Reissue to a blues jam the other night. The harp player with the house band plays through a Green Bullet into a Blues Junior with a Lone Wolf Harp Octave pedal. Nice tone, but I hate playing through a bullet mic, so I brought the PRRI amp and my Shure 545 Ultimate so I wouldn't be stuck using his rig.
Well, everyone, including the harp player in the house band (who actually asked to use my rig for a couple of tunes) liked the tone of the PRRI better than the BJ with the pedal and the bullet mic. I had put the bass on 10, the treble on 0 and the volume on 7, reverb on 3 or so then I rolled off volume fairly dramatically using the VC on the mic. This puts the amp at its "sweet spot" where I get superior tone and still have much better articulation than one gets using a bullet. The depth of tone,"texture," response and dimension were better than what the house harp player was getting from his bullet mic and Harp Octave pedal into his BJ (which, btw actually sounded pretty decent).
A Princeton REVERB has an additional tube stage that a non-reverb Princeton does not have because of the reverb driver. I've never owned or played through a non-reverb Princeton, but those who have tell me the tone of a Princeton Reverb is better than a non-Reverb Princeton because of the extra stage. But a vintage Princeton from the 50s should sound pretty good anyway. And personally, I have a strong preference for 10 inch speakers. I think they're great for harp.
One way to deal with a "boxy" sound is to put a set of tilt back legs on the amp and tilt it back--the tone really opens up if you do this. I put a set of Fender 14" tilt back legs on my PRRI for this reason since putting the bass on 10 and the treble on 0 can make the amp sound a little boxy if i don't tilt it back. It's actually hard to believe just how much of a difference in tone tilting the amp back can make.
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2010 9:56 AM
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MP
928 posts
Oct 17, 2010
9:55 AM
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actually hvyj, i've found most amp nerds to prefer the old princetons w/out reverb because they lack that extra stage. they tend to be guitarists though.
i personally can't tell the difference, but i've used non-reverb princetons (unmolested by CBS except for a minor faceplate change) for years.
chro is dead on about old gibsons. i had the pleasure of playing a BR1 w/ field coil speaker. you just kinda sit back and dig yourself.
i would avoid later models like the Falcon. too tiny/no bottom.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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Mojokane
112 posts
Oct 17, 2010
11:57 PM
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ahhh yes...the ibanez cd10 and a 70 Princeton...
MP..."sit back and dig yourself"...cm, cr, or crystal, no matter...they all sound great.
Last Edited by on Oct 17, 2010 11:58 PM
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