Since joining the forum recently, I have realised I know diddly-squat about music theory and I feel like it is time this was addressed. I believe I play most of my stuff in 2nd position and I guess that is because i feel both comfortable with this and because I like the resonance of this position and that it suits my skill range. I possibly do play other postions, but I don't really know as it's a case of 'what I hear in my head, I play'
Mutiple positions and expressions like 'In 5th position, +5 is root. -5 is flat second' fly serenly over my head. I'd like to learn more and wondered whether you guys could help out i.e. is there an idiots guide to music theory preferably in relation to the harp, or any other resource you can think of.
Ta, Grey Owl
In the words of Isaac Newton:-
‘I seem to have been only as a boy playing on the seashore and diverting myself in now and then finding a smoother pebble or prettier shell than ordinary, whilst the great ocean of truth lay all undiscovered before me’
I'm in the same boat as you are Grey Owl. I did a google on it and did find that they have a "Music Theory for Dummies" book out which looks worthwhile. Since I play music by ear I don't really feel that I need the Theory for my playing as much as I need it just to make sense out of what some here are talking about. It's like being around a bunch of people speaking French(I would have said Spanish but I know a bit of Spanish,LOL) where they're all talking and having a good time and I'm just standing there thinking "What the heck are they talking about??" So far every time someone has tried to explain Music Theory to me the explanation of it is still to far above my head to even understand. I think I need to start out as square #1, even if it might be stuff that I already know and then work my way up slowly until I can follow along with some kind of working knowledge of what's being said. If anyone knows of any good online sites that can teach Theory in a way that VERY SIMPLE please, let us in on it. Thanks. ---------- Harmonicas: Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb Hohner Special 20 in Bb Suzuki HarpMaster in C Suzuki FolkMaster in D,E,F
I really think we need to learn theory before we start reading books that are theory based,LOL. ---------- Harmonicas: Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb Hohner Special 20 in Bb Suzuki HarpMaster in C Suzuki FolkMaster in D,E,F
IMHO most basic music theory is usually classically oriented. You still need to learn harmony. Once again a lot is classical harmony. It can't hurt but you'll most likely never see for example a I chord as a I7(dominant 7) or a blues scale. This I feel should be augmented with Jazz Harmony. Places like Temple University teach different harmony classes for different programs. Basic theory classes in College are usually not credited towards a music degree. This is usually a remedial course.
---------- Emile "Diggs" D'Amico a Legend In His Own Mind How you doin'
"Harmonica for Dummies" sounds like it'll be the next book on my list. They've got a copy at Books a Million in Cookeville, guess I need to make the trip.Thanks guys. ---------- Harmonicas: Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb Hohner Special 20 in Bb Suzuki HarpMaster in C Suzuki FolkMaster in D,E,F
You can check out this guys YouTube videos for some theory. It's not harp specific.
http://www.youtube.com/user/Lypur
The Circle of Fifths is probably the most important thing to learn. It looks intimidating, but it's really not to bad. The thing to remember is that there are notes between C and the next C up. Each note is a half step above the previous note. C has no flats or sharps in it, so you skip those notes. A major scale is that pattern of skips. (C# and Db are the same note. F# and Gb are the same note). To make things 'easy' they decided each key could only have one note of each letter. To make this work they had to do some funny things, like calling C# Db sometimes. It's all about keeping the pattern working and keeping the letters straight.
C C#(Db) D Eb F F#(Gb) G Ab A Bb C
Once you let that sink in, you have the Circle of Fifths. It turns out that you can make a pattern out of the keys. If you add one sharp the pattern for a major scale starts on G. If you add two sharps the pattern only works if you start on D, etc. You can only add sharps or flats, not both. By adding either flats or sharps you can get all 12 of the major keys (14 if you count the two spare keys you get because F#/Gb and Db/C# are the same keys. The circle arranges the keys in, hold on to your hats, a circle (they are so predictable), by how many flats or sharps it has.
Why is this important to harmonica? Well, if you know the circle of fifths you know what keys have nearly all the same notes in them. For harmonica this means that the keys next to each other on the circle are particularly easy to play on the same harmonica in a pinch. All your cross harp keys are one key clockwise from the first position key.
It also turns out that each major key has a relative minor key. Minor keys are what you get when you take a major key pattern but you use a different note for the root. In the case of C Major, the minor key is A Minor. Modes are other patterns altogether. They can sound interesting in their own right but they will sound different that what most people are used to hearing.
If you can memorize the Circle then you know what keys are related to each other. Now, if you aren't using the handy dandy circle of fifths, there are other ways to remember the order of sharps and flats involving sheet music, but they end up with the same results. There is a handy mnemonic to remember for sheet music, but it doesn't work as well for the Circle of Fifths (but you can make it fit).
Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle (That's the order you add #'s to a major key, so if you see 2#'s they'll be F and C. If you see 6#'s, they will be F, C, G, D, A, and E._
Battle Ends And Down Goes Charle's Father (That's the order you add b's to a major key. It works the same way, just for flats.)
Now, if you want to use them for the Circle of Fifths you have to cheat a little. The Circle of Fifths usually is drawn with C Major on top, because C Major doesn't have any flats or sharps (in piano terms, it's all white keys.) But if you go one step counterclockwise you can apply all the keys that don't have a # or a b in their name, clockwise Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle. Then, you can fill out the rest of the circle counterclockwise with all the flat keys Battle (Bb) Ends (Eb) And (Ab) Down (Db) Goes (Gb) and then you run out of keys so you stop.
I'd explain dotted quarter notes and other rhythm stuff but I don't know how to make the symbols on the computer.
I like to think of Music Theory as a thought process. Understanding how the notes you are playing work with chords or harmony from other instruments. It is necessary to understand this information to progress past playing by ear, and it will open big doors once you "get it".
My advice to you is not to bite off more than you can chew. Start small and try to apply the information you learn to your instrument. When you learn something new by ear try to understand WHY it works with Theory.
@Greyowlphotoart: You play extremely well. You've gotten by without learning any theory because you don't play with other musicians with whom you need to communicate. Also, because your ear and intonation are so good, you haven't had to learn theory in order to figure out what you should be playing.
Have you ever considered going out and jamming with other players?
Last Edited by on Sep 29, 2010 4:26 PM
Musictheory.net looks great, and I believe I've used it before. It's really only important stuff to know if you're going to be writing, transposing, or playing against complex chord changes.
@earlounge Yea that sounds like an approach I could take to. @hvyi probably playing with others would be a motivation to learn more. Get me out of my comfort zone as it were. Have to think on the move and adapt, working out what key the guys are playing in, what harps and positions to choose to make it work. @Zack Musictheory.net does look good and a useful starting place and yea I don't intend getting totally absorbed in theory at this stage, but enough to get by. I mainly want to continue developing my playing.
@Greyowlphotoart:"Have to think on the move and adapt, working out what key the guys are playing in, what harps and positions to choose to make it work."
Exactly. This sort of thing would be a terrific catalyst for musical development, and it's fun to do while getting you out of your comfort zone. It forces you to ask questions and learn some practical music theory in order to function.
how many of you learned the ins and outs of grammar before you could carry on a meaningful conversation?
How many of you even know what an adverb or pronoun is today?
Music is taught backwards. It's nothing more than a language, think about how you learned to speak and by age 3-4 you were lying your ass off and making up stories...how is that any different than improvising?
Most of you guys are making music too hard for yourself by focusing on everything EXCEPT music.
Do you guy know why my students are all badass musicians? That's because we focus on what matters most and that' not theory.
Dont misunderstand, theory is important and I can speak in terms of flatted 9ths and Augmented 4ths, Dominant, Subdominants, Dimishished patterns, whole tones, Lydian Augmented chords, Tri-tones etc... but I don't for the same reason I do not speak of prepositions or dangling participles do you get what I'm saying there?
---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
Buddha I have a problem improvising over complex chord progressions, especially bossanovas, e.g. Wave, Desafinado, Girl From Ipanema. I actually remember chord progression, I can play it with guitar, but when I'm playing solo on harmonica I get lost sometimes and root changes sometimes ruins my phrasing. What would you recommend?
---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Learn to sing. The problem is, with your harp playing, you're not always playing music, you're playing patterns. Learn to connect your ears to your instrument. Teach yourself to listen and then reproduce what you hear.
---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
Buddha Thanks. I take a private lesson from Howard Levy and he tells me almost the same. Just interesting Is it possible to improvise over One Note Samba or Wave by ear without understanding theory, chord progressions and scales.
--------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Last Edited by on Sep 30, 2010 10:48 AM
not once where you connected to the music. Even the audience can sense it with their lack luster applause.
Slow down.... you're playing licks and not music in this clip. There is no place for showing off in music.
If you were my student, I would take all the way back to the beginning. You've got some pretty severe foundational issues. This usually happens when people focus on technique and and theory rather than music.
Listen to how I play it... I come in half way through the vid. Lots of space, phrasing that makes sense. I'm connected to the music and playing what comes rather than what I think would impress the audience or Robert.
---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
Buddha, I understand your point, and it's a good one. The thing is, different people learn languages differently. I actually had a really hard time taking a foreign language because English came so naturally for me that I never bother learning the names of all the rules. You could argue that maybe I should have tried immersion instead of regular class structures, but I ran into the same problem in English classes in college. Music is a language. Theory is a language related to music that helps you describe music.
You don't need to know Derrida to understand language, but you'll be able to understand it in different ways. There are musicians who can look at sheet music and hear all the instruments playing all the parts.
When I was a kid I had nearly photographic memory. If somebody asked where I read something I could describe where on the page I had read something, but it wasn't really so much that I could remember, but I could deconstruct my memory. I knew how text books were organized, so I could picture the header, the sub-header, and pictures they used to illustrate it. When I didn't do the reading I could answer questions on tests without knowing the answer because most teachers tipped the answers because they weren't great at writing questions.
I did it instinctively, but when it came time to explain to someone else how to do it I needed that secondary set of skills. I needed words like headers, paragraphs, and chapters. You pick some of that up just speaking English, but the more specialized you get the less likely you are to run across the words you need. Studying a little theory fills in some of those gaps. Some people can pick it up just by hearing other people use it, but some people need to sit down and study it.
Of course now I can barely remember my name unless I have a name tag on. Over a decade of SSRi's and I have holes in my memory you could drive a truck through.
Buddha You're right about this mine video, it's relatively old (2007) I already dislike it. I now listen to bunch of bossanova and understand, that it's necessary to play melodic and slow. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Last Edited by on Sep 30, 2010 11:05 AM
"The thing is, different people learn languages differently."
Are you sure? Think about it. You were taught by experts in your native language - mother and father. You were taught from birth. You learned by listening to the sounds of your parent's voices... after 9mo or so, you as a baby, began to mimic those sounds and what happened? Your parents made the same sounds back to you and you had your first "conversation" with them. Eventually as you grew older, you would learn to mimic the sounds of other words... ie; Cookie many children pronounce it "ookie" and how did your mother respond? By showing you the correct way to say it. "KA KA KA" KA-OOOOKIE." or something similar.
The point is, we learn through sound, tone, rhythm and emotion first. It wasn't until years later you learned to read and write but before then you could have relatively meaningful conversations. Right?
Perhaps you learned to speak your native language differently? Please elucidate.
---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
Last Edited by on Sep 30, 2010 11:31 AM
@Buddha You quoted nacoran not me. Thanks for advices. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Last Edited by on Sep 30, 2010 11:22 AM
Wow! Buddha and I are actually on the same page here. I've said for years that music is instinctive and that it's something that you "pick up" buy doing it, not by learning the Theory of it. That's pretty much what he just said. I totally agree. I'd still like to learn a bit of Theory Speak so I can carry on and understand conversations that take place about music but I don't look at Theory as helping me play any better. ---------- Harmonicas: Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb Hohner Special 20 in Bb Suzuki HarpMaster in C
Don't put all your eggs in one basket. Relying on your ear will work only if you have the opportunity to make mistakes. You can learn a lot by making mistakes from experimentation during practice, but what do you do when someone gives you a chart and says "How 'bout you bring us in with a lead".
Amaj7 C#m F#m7 Dmaj7
What will you do? Are you going to wait until the band plays through the progression once first? Do you even know what harp to play?
You need to know this stuff to communicate with others. When you have years of experience your ear will be your best asset, but learning Music Theory is the best way to sling shot your musicianship forward.
Buddha, ideally, yes. A child picks up language very intuitively, but brains change as we grow older. Some people get very good at book learning. Some people are better at hands on learning. If you want a kid to be a great musician, the sooner you can get them playing the better. Unfortunately, lots of people decide they want to be great musicians later in life. I certainly learned to speak before I could read or write, but learning to read and write eventually made me much better at speaking. I'd never discourage someone from learning to read and write just because they can already speak.
you're missing the point, at no time have discourage learning music theory. You are assume most harp players can already play music. It's clear that most can't and therefore, I encourage them to learn to play music before they learn the theory.
In this case, many of the players on this board are unable to speak and learning grammar first as a mechanism to learn how to speak is ill advised.
So how much theory do you know Nacoran? Have you ever played with a band? And how has said knowledge of theory helped you?
---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
Even when I was in a band(played guitar) we didn't talk much Theory. We'd listen to the song, figure out our parts and play and work on it as a group until we got it. ---------- Harmonicas: Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb Hohner Special 20 in Bb Suzuki HarpMaster in C
Buddha, how has theory helped me? Well, for one thing, it lets me know which harp to pick up if I want to play in second position. I learned that if you play really large interval leaps your music will sound like a sci-fi soundtrack.
When I played baritone a touch of theory let me read sheet music. When I'm explaining to my friend what note to play on his bass and I don't know what fret he needs to be on knowing the name of the note I want, well, that's theory. (I could play it on the harp but is faster for him if I tell him the name of the note.)
When I was mixing something the other day it let me know I should probably be careful using parallel octaves. It lets me call out the time signature before we actually start jamming. Theory is knowing the difference between equal and just tuning when you go to tune a harp. It's also a great change of pace when your lips are chapped and raw from playing. It even involves knowing things things like how to get rid of pops and hisses on recordings.
Some people might even, gasp, find it interesting! When I learn something new in theory I immediately want to see if I can figure out how to do it in practice.
As for playing like that clip, I'm not sure I'd want to. I'm not into dissonant jazzy stuff. Yes, I've played with a band, although mostly garage stuff. I've played an few open mics and a few songs at a friends show.
I took up harp pretty late. I practice until it's not fun anymore, put it down, then pick it up when I want to. I'd rather write music than perform live. I don't mind playing live. I just don't get feel the creative energy when I do. I get that feeling from writing.
I took a couple music theory classes way back in high school and college. I can sight read the bass clef and work my way through the treble clef in a pinch. I know the difference between major, minor, diminished and augmented chords. I know to avoid parallel motion and why, and that no rule is hard and fast. By no means am I an expert at music theory. Any classically trained musician would know more, but I have fun with it, and I find it helps me put stuff in context.
TNFrank, even figuring out parts is theory! It's all just how far you go with it.
Buddha tells us theory is not important in general. Howard Levy tells me how important to understand theory and tells me I have to practice diminished scale and altered scale and to use them fluent. Just more musicians more points of view.
Anyway Buddha, do you really recommend to play such complex tunes like One Note Samba, Giant Steps, All The Things You Are by ear? ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2010 1:21 AM
I think some people are misunderstanding what Buddah is saying here. The point is (as I see it) theory is important, but listening and playing with musicality is more important. It's easy to get stunted by theoretical knowledge. Paralysis by analyisis. i saw it happen to lot of people at the Conservatory where I studied. It's good to learn theory, but try not to think about it when you're playing, and just focus on making music.
@ Boris - I think learning difficult changes has a LOT more to do with listening and reacting than it does with knowing the theory behind the changes. Learning scales is important, but that's just really learning how to play the instrument. It's comparable to driving a car. Before one can drive the Nürburgring, one has to be able to shift smoothly, accelerate, brake, and take the curves properly. it helps to know the theory behind doing these things, but to learn it, you have to actually get in a car and try it out. But theory doesn't help at all when taking corners at 200 kmh. At that point its solely about listening and reacting. Fluid motion of brain and body.
BTW, theory is a great tool of musician conversation. It's possible to make a fast arrangement of any tune (cover or authorship) and working on music if all musician are musical literate. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
I'm not saying theory is not important. Everybody should learn it, but learn to play music first.
Just like speaking, we all learned how to speak before we learned how to spell.
Most of you guys are not truly able to make music yet and learning theory is not what you need right now. You need to learn how to play music.
Think about when you hear music. What is the first thing you think about? Is it, he's in the key of A, the progression is a standard 145 blues with a 251 turnaround? No! Generally you feel the groove and the rhythm of the song, you hear the words and the melody. You feel the emotion behind the song, you determine if you like the tone etc.... None of this has anything to do with theory.
I have much respect for Jason Rosenblatt and Sandy Weltman but much of their music is unlistenable to me. They both know tonnes of theory and demonstrate it in their music but their overall sound is thin and their playing is stiff. It's not musical.
Guys, I know theory, I studied it for a long time but people already thought of me as a great musician long before I ever learned to ready chord charts, notes etc...
I get a lot of harmonica players who want to learn theory. I listen to them first and not a single one have I given a theory lesson because they simply were not ready. Instead we work on breathing, tone, phrasing etc and you know what? Not a single student has regretted it. When they are ready I'll teach them theory if they feel the need it.
Some of you will need to know theory as time passes but for others it's as important as learning geometry, algebra and calculus in High School when all you're doing is selling cars or water systems.
The point of my posts in this thread is not to discourage learning music theory but rather to learn music first ---------- "I am a great believer in understanding, not copying."
I probably know more theory then I know that I know. Just like the 12 Bar Blues, I'd played that way since I started playing guitar and had done it all my life but I didn't know what it was called. I can play all manner of chords on guitar but when you start talking Tonic, Root, Sub-Dominate, Dominate, ect. it totally goes over my head. I know it when I hear it but I don't know it when I'm talked to about it. I think it's because I'm more of a "hands on, show me a picture and I'll figure it out" kind of guy rather then a "read 3 pages of instructions" type of person. I put a shift kit in my Turbo 350 recently, read thru the instruction and everything but it didn't make sense until I saw a few pics of what to do. It's just how my brain works. Some people relate to words, some to pictures and sounds. I'm a Pictures and Sounds kind of guy. I would like to learn the words to express music though, it's just I've not found anyone that can come down to basic enough terms for me to get it. Even when they think they're talking in simple terms it's still over my head.
----------
Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb,D(on order) Hohner Special 20 in Bb Suzuki HarpMaster in C
Last Edited by on Oct 01, 2010 6:41 AM
I just printed out a "Circle of Fifths" chart. I think I understand it a bit. If I'm playing in C(the "I") and need to find out the IV and V I just look to the left for the IV and to the right for the V and I'll know the chord. Also, to the right is the 5th which would show me what key I'd be in Cross Harp from the Straight Harp Key. So C would be G, D would be A, ect. Ok, I just need to study this chart and learn it, that should help out some with the Theory Talk. Who'd have thought that learning to play harp at age 49 would mean going back to "school", LOL. ----------
Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb,D(on order) Hohner Special 20 in Bb Suzuki HarpMaster in C
Buddha, I'm not saying everyone needs to know everything about theory, but some of the basics make life easier right from the start. Learning the Circle of Fifths is easier for me than memorizing a list of what harps to play for cross harp for what keys. It's the same information, but understanding the structure helps me learn it. Back in school the math teachers used to always hand us formulas and tell us to plug in numbers. I hated it. I'd ask them why the formula worked. If I know why a formula works I can figure out how to break it to do what I want. It stops being about rote memorization. That's how my brain is wired. I'm not saying theory is for everyone, but some people are going to benefit from it early on. Other people may never need it or may only add it later. I'm just saying, if you want to try a piece of pi, try a piece of pi. If it doesn't agree with you you can try it again later if you want, or you can eat cake instead.
Last Edited by on Sep 29, 2010 1:09 AM
