HarpNinja
649 posts
Sep 28, 2010
6:37 AM
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In the last couple of weeks, I've had a couple of harps go flat on a reed or two. They have lasted a long time and aren't cracked or anything, but it got me to thinking about tuning preference. I also had an email conversation with a harp player about tuning preference as well.
For the last couple of years, I've tried to get into playing Marine Bands and keeping the stock tuning. However, I think I am an ET tuning sorta guy (unless it is a low tuned harmonica). I play almost all rock-based music and rely much more on octaves than chords. In fact, when I use chords, it is more as an effect than for the sake of using chords (if that makes sense).
Another factor is that I play just as much non-2nd position as I do second position. When I gig, maybe 50% of it is in 2nd. When playing as a side guy, I currently play almost entirely in 3rd and 12th.
I tried the Crossover tuning as suggested by Steve Baker, but I guess I don't totally get it. It seems to be pretty close to ET or the Manji tuning with some smoother intervals. I do like it, but I don't know if there is enough of an advantage that it is worth the extra time to tune to - or if I really get the theory behind it. I am undecided.
I also thought about 19 Limit JI, but the 3/7 octave would be a tad rough, and I use that too much.
While realizing I am totally over thinking this and that it really probably only matters to me and no one in the crowd, doesn't ET seem like the logic way for me to go?
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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tookatooka
1756 posts
Sep 28, 2010
6:46 AM
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As a relative newcomer to the harp (3ish years, adavanced beginner)I started off with ET tuned Suzukis and loved them but I found when trying to play from Adams and others videos on YouTube I never felt my playing sounded quite right. I got a Special 20 and the problem was solved immediately. I do quite a bit of octave and chordal playing which just doesn't sound right on ET.
Now if only Suzuki would tune to the same as the Special 20 and bring out a HarpMaster with that tuning. That would be my dream harp.
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bacon-fat
20 posts
Sep 28, 2010
7:07 AM
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I find ET harps such as Golden Melody to sound best for me when doing lots of octaves, especially 3rd position blues style, as they are closest to the tuning of a chromatic. I have some GMs that Jimmy Gordon set up for me and they are sweet.
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hvyj
653 posts
Sep 28, 2010
7:20 AM
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Mike, You must have read my post on this topic in the "Helpful Mode Backing Tracks" thread. I absolutely agree with you. ET is the way to go for the way you play.
I started playing ET about 3 years ago. I could not believe how much more in tune with the band I sounded. And, after about a month or so of playing ET, my ear started improving considerably. I play no other instruments and I had been playing compromise tuning for so long that I did not know what certain notes were actually SUPPOSED to sound like since they were tuned flat on the compromise tuned harps I had been playing for so many years.
Now, I am a multiple position player and I don't ordinarily play a lot of chords. A player who primarily stays in first and second position and likes to "chug" in a very traditional blues style or a player who likes to tongue block and do tongue lifts for chords probably won't sound as good playing ET. But that's not what I do and that's not what you do.
Who carers if chords beat a little if you don't play a lot of chords? And, btw, you can lighten the breath pressure and soften embouchure to minimize the beating when you do play the occasional chord and it sounds decent. But, there are very few available chords that work in positions above third anyway, and since i regularly play in multiple positions, I don't play a lot of chords. I'll more often use octave stops or other split interval double stops.
It depends on one's style of play. If a player wants to copy a lot of traditional blues licks, ET many not be the best choice. Personally, I'd rather sound in tune with the rest of the band than just be in tune with myself. I don't usually play my harmonica like it's a harmonica anyway and I definitely sound better and more in tune playing ET. I can't stand all the flat notes in compromise tuning--I think they are unmusical--and especially so for playing in positions above third.
Just my take on it. others may disagree and probably will.
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TNFrank
257 posts
Sep 28, 2010
7:23 AM
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This is some interesting stuff and something I'd not thought about. If it's not too much trouble can someone post a link that explains the different types of harmonica tunings in more detail please?
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Harmonicas:
Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb
Hohner Special 20 in Bb
Suzuki HarpMaster in C
Suzuki FolkMaster in D,E,F
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hvyj
654 posts
Sep 28, 2010
7:32 AM
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@TNFrank: Ask BBQ Bob. He is a walking encyclopedia of Richter harmonica tuning variations.
@tookatooka; Octaves should be perfectly in tune with one another no matter what tuning scheme is used. Even if a particular note is tuned flat, its octave in a different register will also be tuned flat to the same extent. In any tuning scheme, notes an octave apart are always in tune with one another.
However, I'm not all that familiar with the 19L JI tuning that HarpNinja is talking about, so i don't know if that scheme may be different.
Last Edited by on Sep 28, 2010 7:55 AM
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HarpNinja
650 posts
Sep 28, 2010
7:35 AM
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http://www.patmissin.com/tunings/tunings.html
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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TNFrank
258 posts
Sep 28, 2010
7:55 AM
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Thanks for the link HarpNinja. I actually did run across that link doing a google search. I guess this kind of explains why my Suzuki HarpMaster, my Hohner Golden Melody and my Hohner Big River sounds just a bit different from one anohter.
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Harmonicas:
Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb
Hohner Special 20 in Bb
Suzuki HarpMaster in C
Suzuki FolkMaster in D,E,F
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HarpNinja
651 posts
Sep 28, 2010
8:06 AM
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In going through my gig rig of harps I realized the following:
C - Compromise that is almost ET
G - ET
D - MB Compromise
A - Compromise that is almost ET
E - ET
B - ET
Low F - Compromise that is almost ET
Bb - Crossover Compromise
Eb - ET
Ab - ET
Db - Compromise that is almost ET
Low F# - MB Compromise
The mix for my 2nd tier harps is almost identical.
My least favorite sounding harps are the Bb (which I tuned and let sit and now need to tweak - I have been using a Bb tuned to MB Compromise as well), D, and C.
So I guess I am a ET fan, lol. The close to ET harps are Buddha harps. All my low key harps are the MB Compromise, and I only use them for 2nd position blues.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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RyanMortos
826 posts
Sep 28, 2010
8:41 AM
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Almost all my harps are ET tuning. Any beating definitely isn't dull! I did compromise tune one of my MBs. Some are still JI. What is Manji a compromise too? I like the sound of that. I was thinking of compromise tuning all my harmonicas. Im also messing around more and more with paddy richter which changes your 3 blow to 3 draw double bend note. I wish even 10% of my playing was positions other then 2nd, I guess as an advanced beginner/early intermediate I havent gotten around to working them into my playing yet. I know & can play the scales but when I play with a jam track I just about always choose 2nd.
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~Ryan
"I play the harmonica. The only way I can play is if I get my car going really fast, and stick it out the window." - Stephen Wright
Pennsylvania - H.A.R.P. (Harmonica Association 'Round Philly)
Contact:
My youtube account
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HarpNinja
652 posts
Sep 28, 2010
9:37 AM
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The Manji uses a compromise tuning which is essentially ET with a few cents lopped off the major thirds of the chords.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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hvyj
656 posts
Sep 28, 2010
10:11 AM
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@RyanMortos: OOB MBs are NOT JI--they are a compromise tuning that is different than the compromise tunings of the Hohner MS and Crossovers
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Jim Rumbaugh
312 posts
Sep 28, 2010
10:41 AM
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You can go crazy over tuning..... I know I have.
I'm not sure, but ET sounds right to me IF you play more than 1st & 2nd positions.
I do favor shooting for abour 442A instead of 440A. I'm not good at tuning, but I can definitly see the pitch go down the harder I play.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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HarpNinja
653 posts
Sep 28, 2010
10:58 AM
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When I tune my harps, I tune to 442...and I typically don't play very hard....I think almost all stock harps are tuned higher than 440A.
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Mike
VHT Special 6 Amp for Harp Blog
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hvyj
657 posts
Sep 28, 2010
11:10 AM
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My Hammonds are A442 OOB and I have my Buddha harps tuned to A442 pure ET. No intonation problems. So far as I'm concerned, the acid test is when I'm sitting in with a jazz band and there are horn players. I'm able to play jazz heads right along with the horns and sound in tune. So, I think A442 is right for me.
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barbequebob
1263 posts
Sep 28, 2010
11:22 AM
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Which tuning to use depends on things like:
A. personal preference
B. genre of music you want to play
C. is chording/double stops important to what you do
D. positions you intend to play in
I personally find that no one single tuning fits everything well. For rock, since you are chording FAR less than if you're were playing blues, ESPECIALLY traditonal blues, ET or a comprimise tuning makes more sense.
Tradtional blues, I much prefer 7LJI and then afterwards 19LJI.
Below is a link for the complete list of tunings:
http://www.deltafrost.com/diatonic-harmonica-tunings-an-update_topic6473_post63914.html?KW=Diatonic+Harmonica+Tunings#63914
Between 7LJI and 19LJI, 19LJI is more versatile because 5 & 9 draw is tuned 1.5 cents sharper than equal, wheras in 7LJI, those same two notes are 29 cents flat.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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nacoran
2832 posts
Sep 28, 2010
11:45 AM
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Historically different keys each had there own tuning. There are tons of old piano tunings, like well-tempered, that aren't really used much. If someone really got into it they could create some unique sounds. Wikipedia has some surprisingly good primer material. There was a Slate article a while back on old piano tunings. (Although it's more about the history. It doesn't have the tuning specifics.)
Slate
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Nate
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TNFrank
261 posts
Sep 28, 2010
11:57 AM
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Do all these tunings (i.e. Compromise, Just Intonation, Equal Temperament) fall under the Richter tuned umbrella or are they different? I know that the Country Tuned harp has a flat 7th or something like that(remember I'm not real good at theory, wish I was but I'm not) added to it instead of a major 7th so it's not technically Richter tuned.
Man, this "little tin sandwich" is a complicated little beast, isn't it.
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Harmonicas:
Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb
Hohner Special 20 in Bb
Suzuki HarpMaster in C
Suzuki FolkMaster in D,E,F
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hvyj
659 posts
Sep 28, 2010
12:04 PM
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@TNFrank: Yes. JI, ET and compromise tunings are all variations of the same Richter tuning. Richter tuning refers to the note layout. JI, ET, etc. refer to how the intervals (notes) in that layout are tuned in relation to one another.
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TNFrank
262 posts
Sep 28, 2010
12:09 PM
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I also noticed ya'll talking about "cents" as it relates to pitch. How many "cents" will take it to the next note, i.e. from say a C to a D?
I guess my next purchase should be the "Music Theory for Dummies" book. I really do need to learn this stuff, even the basic stuff just so I can keep up with ya'll and carry on a half way intelligent conversation. I feel to totally stupid not being able to understand this stuff after playing music for so long.
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Harmonicas:
Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb
Hohner Special 20 in Bb
Suzuki HarpMaster in C
Suzuki FolkMaster in D,E,F
Last Edited by on Sep 28, 2010 12:10 PM
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barbequebob
1266 posts
Sep 29, 2010
10:32 AM
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Between each note, there is 100 semitones AKA cents, based on ET tuning.
JI has been around centuries longer than ET tuning ever was and long before harmonicas were ever invented and every instrument until about the late 1600's/early 1700's were tuned to some for of JI and the site http://www.justintonation.net has a complete list of EVERY historical temperament ever devised and I'd love to hear a number of classical music pieces using instruments tuned to their original historic temperaments to compare how they'd sound today.
IF you go to http://www.patmissin.com, he has a huge listings of tunings that have been devised for both diatonics as well as chromatic harmonicas in terms of note layout and also some sound files for diatonics using a key of C harmonica so that you can hear with both the chords as well as the individual notes on the differences between ET tuning, 7LJI, 19LJI, 5LJI.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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boris_plotnikov
257 posts
Sep 29, 2010
10:47 AM
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I hate JI, I hate lowered 5 and 9 draw. I ususally choose base tuning A4=442 for all reeds, except 2, 5, 8 blow and 3, 7 draw where I use base tuning A4=441. I'm not a blues player but I love using some chords and thirds.
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Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
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TNFrank
273 posts
Sep 29, 2010
11:21 AM
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Thanks BBQ Bob. So, 50 cents would be a sharp or a flat depending on which way you went, is that right? An E that was -50 cents would be Eb and an E that was +50 cents would be E#(or Fb depending on how you'd look at it). Ok, that helps to clear some things up when they say something is -12 cents or +5 cents.
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Harmonicas:
Hohner Big River in Low F,G,A,Bb
Hohner Special 20 in Bb
Suzuki HarpMaster in C
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barbequebob
1268 posts
Sep 30, 2010
10:09 AM
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@Boris --- The JI you may not like is 7LJI, which has 5 & 9 draw tuned 29 cents flat, but if you use a harp that's tuned to 19LJI, those same two notes are instead tuned 1.5 cents sharp, which makes JI much more versatile.
@TNFrank --- That is a completely incorrect assumption because each cent difference (AKA semitone)is that between each 1/2 step, such as E and Eb, there are 100 cents (AKA semitones) between each note and 50 cents flat or sharp will NOT be true at all because, again, to be at the very next half step requires 100 cents and NOT 50 cents in between the notes.
If the note was tuned 50 cents flat from E, you need to retune the reed an addtional 50 cents DOWNWARD in order for it to be an Eb.
When you see the tuning differentials, like -12 cents, that means -12 from 0 cents, which means ET.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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