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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
forget about "big tone"
forget about "big tone"
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kudzurunner
1829 posts
Sep 06, 2010
6:47 PM
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I'm only half-serious, of course. But it occurred to me recently that although some of the players I love are characterized by monstrous tone--Cotton, William Clarke--a lot of others are characterized, as often as not, by a thin, glancing, breathless, sometimes keening tone: Little Walter, Big Walter, Junior Wells; Sonny Boy Williamson (Rice Miller) on his classic Trumpet session, "Mighty Long Time."
I'm not sure where the fetish for "big tone" got started. I've certainly been as guilty as the next harp player. I think a lot of it has to do with all the talk about mics, amps, and cupping--as though only an all-points focus on producing the thickest, fullest sound can possibly be of interest to the true aficionados.
But the truth is, most of the great players--and certainly the players I've mentioned above--were able to go both ways. Big Walter is often invoked as the ne plus ultra of massive attack, and he could certainly do that: "Easy" is Exhibit A. But BIG WALTER WITH CAREY BELL shows that one of his principal modes was the opposite of full, strong attack. And when I'm honest with myself, that's some of the stuff that really grabs me.
It's ACCOMPANIST harp, among other things: dialing it down, dialing it back, is something that any skilled accompanist on harp needs to know how to do. I think of it as "papery" tone. Whispery tone. The key is to maintain good blues tonality; good intonation on the blue thirds and fifths.
Junior Wells on HOODOO MAN BLUES is the other master of this mode of playing. It's about maintaining blues pitches, intensity, and groove, all while dialing the volume down.
The "big sound" is great. I love it. I use it. I strive for it. But it's not the only game in town. And it's definitely not the only game that the great Chicago masters (among others) could play. I think we need to let that myth fade into obscurity. If we did so--i.e., if we allowed ourselves to hear all of what the (amplified) blues harmonica is capable of, we might not worry quite so much about which mic, which amp, and which stock or custom harp delivered audible Big Bang.
BBQ Bob has spoken many times, and eloquently, about how the old-school guys didn't really care about what they played through. The point I'm making here connects quite logically with that point. The papery sound is one that evolves quite naturally from a player who is working through the PA, or through an amp that doesn't deliver easy big helpings of sag, compression, and even harmonics, and who is striving for some sort of tonal and dynamic range despite the apparent limitations of his equipment.
Then again, it's a sound that evolves quite naturally from a player who is working through a small tube amp cranked up, but who is backing off the mic a little. This is precisely the point made by Richard Hunter in his excellent article on Little Walter in a jazz studies journal back in 1979.
Big full tone is wonderful. It's not the only game in town. I think it's time that we let go of the illusion that it's the only ideal worth pursuing. The masters knew better. A skilled lover knows how to whisper.
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2010 6:52 PM
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eharp
782 posts
Sep 06, 2010
7:08 PM
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i think an assumption is being made about tone.
is their tone, be it big or small, a conscious act.
couldnt it be that little whoever was just having a great day? perhaps he got his sausage browned juuuust right?
or maybe big somebody rolled and tumbled all night and has no enthusiasm for playing on a certain day?
it is possible, right? i mean, i've seen keith richards hack up a performance, favre barely able to hit a wide open receiver, rachel ray spill her sauce. folks aint on 24/7. stuff happens and it has to effect their playing.
sorry if this is blasphemy. i have never gotten into the biographies of the greats. and i sure never had one talk to me about this stuff.
closest i ever got to this was cotton asking if my friend had a joint. (whatever that is!)
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gene
554 posts
Sep 06, 2010
7:19 PM
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"Closest I ever got to this was cotton asking if my friend had a joint. (Whatever that is!)"
I don't know. Maybe he was looking for a place to gig.
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2010 7:19 PM
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kudzurunner
1830 posts
Sep 06, 2010
7:30 PM
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No, that's left-handed. I'm talking about ambidextrous lovers. Full range stroking. Sauce or no. Either way works for me.
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Joe_L
604 posts
Sep 06, 2010
9:03 PM
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When I hear the term big tone, I think of Big Walter. He had a way of manipulating the sound of his playing and his use of dynamics. To me, his sound was very rich and deep. He would thin out his sound to keep things interesting. It's a variation of playing technique.
James Cotton and William Clarke (your two examples) also possess this skill. Their uses and variation of techniques and fitting it into the appropriate musical context is part of what makes them excellent. The variety keeps their playing from being boring.
I can think of a few modern day players that bore me, because they lack variation. They are highly skilled and know their way around the harmonica, but the ability to express the feeling isn't there.
Isn't playing Blues about expressing emotion and feeling? Lefty Dizz used to say that it's all about dynamics.
What do I know? I'm just a guy writing about this stuff on the Internet.
Last Edited by on Sep 06, 2010 9:04 PM
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shanester
226 posts
Sep 06, 2010
11:11 PM
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Yup, I agree. Big tone isn't everything in the Blues, but dynamics is.
I value dynamics. It is important to know, as a harp player, how to cup the mic and get maximum compression, but there is also a time to back off, and let more treble cut through.
That is one thing I love about Junior Wells, he was for the most part not a real tight cup player, although he did sometimes for dynamic variation.
He really let his treble come through, and I think it was a big part of his signature sound, which is immediately recognizeable.
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Shane
1shanester
"Keep it coming now, keep it coming now,
Don't stop it no don't stop it no no don't stop it no don't stop it no no..."
- KC and the Sunshine Band
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Hobostubs Ashlock
1001 posts
Sep 06, 2010
11:36 PM
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i just enrolled in David Barrets harp school this last week,and there was alot of talk about dynamics,i didnt even know what it meant,but im trying to become more aware of its use now.Good point shanester
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shanester
229 posts
Sep 07, 2010
12:08 AM
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Thanks, Hobostubs!
To me dynamics is sort of the emotional content of the song.
Sometimes, within a song, it can be like screaming at one point and whimpering at another. Loud, soft, fast, slow.
I think a lot of the power and passion of blues and rock revolves around dynamics, it shakes things up and keeps your attention. It takes you through multiple moods, just like real emotion, like grief.
I think being in tune to that stuff is more important than a lot of technical knowledge, although technical knowledge on top of that is powerful indeed!
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Shane
1shanester
"Keep it coming now, keep it coming now,
Don't stop it no don't stop it no no don't stop it no don't stop it no no..."
- KC and the Sunshine Band
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barbequebob
1210 posts
Sep 07, 2010
11:43 AM
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Big tone these days is too often, IMNSHO, confused with very dirty tone and some of the things to induce more dirt like the different tube swaps, may make things dirtier, but truth be told, I feel most of that is pretty much BS because everything gets so ridiculously dirty that it actually acts as an impediment to getting tonal variety just on the use of breath control and dynamics with everything soiunding so heavily overcompressed and then every note totally lacks definition.
Many of those old guys frankly didn't care what they played thru as long as their sound got across and a few of them just burst out laughing at a lot of these harp players who are so overly obsessed with gear and nearly every one of those old guys would always tell you that it ain't helping them sound any better than they already are except in their own minds.
A huge part of the equation of tone control is undrstanding and learning how to control the dynamics as well as how you hold the instrument and often times a tight cup isn't always necessary and some of the stuff those old guys did on recordings don't work when you tight cup the instrument and whatever you're playing thru.
Too often all this gear stuff, which at times, the arguments I see on forums like Harp-L and, unfortunately, this one as well, at times gets flat out silly to the point that I just feel like cracking up laughing because some of these things wind up as immature pissing contests for absolutely nothing with too many people needing constant ego stroking.
Yes, I know that's not gonna make me popular, but unfortunately, it's the cold, hard brutal truth.
With some of the gear things that go on in so many forums, the ones most heavily into gear tend to be lesser in the skills category (tho there are GREAT players who are into gear, but NOT as overly crazy as lesser skilled players tend to be, from my experience), a lot of times, as one old player once told me, "it's like a totally bald headed man with absolutely no hope of getting that hair back and glueing on the cheapest, ugliest wig on his head that`s too easy to tell and then having the nerve telling you that's all his own hair when everybody can see that's nothing but BS!"
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2010 1:18 PM
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Littoral
74 posts
Sep 07, 2010
1:12 PM
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"Forget" ain't gonna happen but putting tone in perspective is certainly in order. I was lucky enough to obsess for 8 years over "the best amp" and learned to play with some tone in the meantime. It might not have happened if I'd gotten the 57 Champ sooner. $150 bucks back then.
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DeakHarp
181 posts
Sep 07, 2010
1:30 PM
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I love my tone ... but there is nuances that i like to put in my playing ... where i open my cup on the mic .. to thin it out ... and swicthing back and forth from .. Deep To open cup ... and also puckering ... in places gives me a difrent tone on fast runs ... I use all the tricks i know ... Keep the bag of tricks filling up ... Every day i learn something .....
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Have Harp Will Travel
www.deakharp.com
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2010 1:31 PM
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MP
811 posts
Sep 07, 2010
1:48 PM
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What Bob said w/ one addition.
jimmy reed and slim harpo and a host of other rack players have great tone. cupping? nope, hands are busy with guitar. mics and amps and pedals? you gotta be kidding.
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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harpoon_man
1 post
Sep 07, 2010
3:05 PM
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(My first post here!) Agree with Kudzu big-time on this one. What I learned from watching Gary Primich up close on many occasions was that it’s not about achieving a big fat tone (although he could clearly do this), it’s about achieving variation in tone to keep things interesting and musical. Gary used the whole spectrum of tone, from huge-fat to thin-shrill, to great effect. There were at least a couple of other factors that set Gary’s playing apart from the rest, but this was one of the big ones for me.
-Rusty
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MP
815 posts
Sep 07, 2010
3:18 PM
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welcome harpoon! cheers!
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MP
hibachi cook for the yakuza
doctor of semiotics
superhero emeritus
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JTThirty
79 posts
Sep 08, 2010
4:35 AM
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You've got to be able to 'bring' a decent big fat tone to the table as needed. It may not be the only game in town, but to gain respectability as a blues harpster the deep fat has to be in the arsenal. The fattest tone that I ever heard 'live' was produced by Gary Primich, but as "harpoon man" said, he strived to prove his versatility by producing other tonal shades. All true giants of the blues harp demonstrate this ability--but to me, it's when they choose to dig down from way deep and bring that 'big tone' that they reach the recesses of my soul.
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KingoBad
362 posts
Sep 08, 2010
5:42 AM
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I think the biggest epiphany for me was at the Hill Country. I was watching these guys play a few feet away, guys like Deak, Adam, Brandon, Billy Branch (among others).
I couldn't believe they were playing the same instrument I was. It was tremendously loud, full and warm and they were not playing very hard.
I thought I had a pretty good tone at that time, but they made me want to toss my harp in the nearest trash can. I have been trying to make a lot of adjustments since then.
You can tell why they have such a good sound when they are on the mic cupped or not because they're acoustic tone is so good.
Last Edited by on Sep 08, 2010 5:43 AM
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N.O.D.
172 posts
Sep 08, 2010
6:04 AM
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Bro's forget about "big tone" Na won't happen:)
to get this thin tone fat tone, you need 2 things
or what ever tone you are looking for it's there in ya Fat chubby Little Hands,and that butt breath you breath all over ya ol Lady when you kiss hear:)
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Correct Hand Control Breath force:)
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barbequebob
1213 posts
Sep 08, 2010
6:09 AM
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@Kingobad
--- That`s exactly what I`ve been saying from day one and too many players NEVER make a solid effort to develop it at all and use gear like musical plastic surgery thinking it will make them sound better and more professional but none of that stuff they`re blowing money on will ever do that.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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blueswannabe
61 posts
Sep 16, 2010
5:27 AM
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I came to this conversation a little bit late but had to comment given how important the topic was. I, too, bought the different amps and mics and pedals, etc. but have realized over the past 1.5 years in which I have been playing that it's all about dynamics and variations of tone and the basics. My two amps have been collecting dust for the past three months. Since then I have played acoustically and focused on grove, cupping, and expressiveness through dynamics. It's made a difference and I 've seen some improvement. Also, I have focused on singing ( as bad as it is) and playing which forces me to acknowledge and appreciate the dynamics. No doubt, Adam's and BBQ 's words of wisdom have definitely rung true for me.
Last Edited by on Sep 16, 2010 5:29 AM
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