No, I'll nominate "Fast Boogie" from the previous session as LW's peak--listen to the interplay with Fred Below's drums.
"Rocker" is a lovely demonstration of how LW varied his sound by opening and closing his hands, but the cupped-up sound is just too furry for me--warbles like the ones ca. 0:20 just drive me up the wall these days; I really don't think we can hear everything he's doing, he really HAS to open his hands to be clear at all. I don't want to sound like that anymore so I do things like take bypass caps off to cut the gain down. Stuff like the octave block ca. 0:40 does sound cool but overall the fur just sticks in my mouth. I admit it's what I sound like on the Pinetop Perkins tracks but I consider that a mistake now.
Another thing for me about "Rocker" was checking the personnel and sure enough, Louis Myers had left the band. Subsequent lineups never gelled to the degree of the original band in that July 1953 session. YMMV, maybe we need another thread to argue the most bestests :)
All you gotta do to get that "Rocker" tone is turn an older-style 6V6 amp up too far, then you got furball city like that. There's a reason he didn't keep using that tone, namely that it obscures some of what he's doing, as I said already. Yeah, his playing on "Rocker" is great, but to me it sounds like a great job of coping with the excess distortion.
And the combination of Freddie Green-w/ Count-Basie-style guitar drive and the explosively free drums on "Fast Boogie" outswings "Rocker" any day or night. Name your second so I can put you out of your unperceptive misery and liberate your oppressed tweeds.
Uh, you are talking about this tune, right? Make sure you pack all those Harp Attacks in bubble wrap for the executor of your estate when he ships them to me.
Adding to LW's tonal array is the fact that Leonard Chess would have Walter play through gear he didn't like, proven by the bantering between them between takes. Also read in the LW book about how the relationship of studio mic to the harp amp speaker could influence the recorded sound. As I remember it, what the author was suggesting is that most of the "Watch Yourself" sound was the studio mic being distorted by the amp speaker, not a holy-grail amp......
@Ev630: **** no, I am NOT talking about that tune, sir--I explicitly stated "from the previous [July, 1953] session." Please ATTEND when I specify IMPORTANT DETAILS like that if you wish to avoid looking even more foolish than you already did, because if such a thing is possible it seems that you will find a way to do so. That's "Fast Boogie" from the July 23, 1953 session, and not the multiple early versions of "Off the Wall" that are canonically titled "Fast Boogie" simply because that was what the tape log said, not because they're early takes of the July 23, 1953 song so titled.
And as for the Pinetop Perkins, go to Pinetop Perkins where "Chicken Shack" and "Mojo" include me, in fact, on harmonica. The album on which those appear, dare I say it, won the Grammy for Best Traditional Blues despite my best efforts (which include use [however briefly] of the 1OB on the "Chicken Shack" turnaround).
My second will relay to yours my request for a delay in the dawn meeting; for me to kill you as many times as your rampant foolishness deserves is impossible at present. I have seen you on video, sir, and notwithstanding its ungainliness, your frame does not offer space for enough bullet holes. Please take a few weeks to gain weight so I can perforate you to the degree merited by your cloddish machinations.
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2010 6:31 AM
@ Harpwrench: "Adding to LW's tonal array is the fact that Leonard Chess would have Walter play through gear he didn't like, proven by the bantering between them between takes." I assume that you are talking about the "Leonard, this mic is a bitch" episode? This was "Worried Life Blues", Feb. '59, acoustic...Leonard & the engineers were obviously preferring Walter to play without an amp at this time (perhaps causing a monitoring problem in the studio, among the band? Walter would have been in the vocal booth). Later in the year Walter would resurrect his amplified tone on Backtrack (rest of the same session was acoustic), before the aforementioned tracks (Me & Piney Brown, etc) then in December Walter ends the year with amplified harp on "You're Sweet/Goin' Down Slow". From then on, until the pretty ropey "Chicken Shack" session ('66), Walter was acoustic in the studio.
Hopefully Fess & EV's duel will escalate to mutually assured destruction, and I'll be free to extoll the virtues of "Rollercoaster" as LW's bestest ever work, unhindered!:-)
You recorded with Pinetop Perkins? Now I'm conflicted. I wanted to drill your hide full of more holes than a tea strainer designed by a gopher for use in a Swiss cheese factory, but now I don't know. This is some kind of cognitive dissonance. Pinetop Perkins? FTW indeed.
Mark - Rollercoaster is the 2nd best Little Walter instrumental. That fact was enshrined in law when Congress passed the "Definitive Ranking of Little Walter's Grooviest Instrumentals (by cats who would Know) Bill, no.2, 1978." That bill has never been amended although I note there was a challenge in the Supreme court that failed in 1992, "El Pollo Loco Harmonica Society v USA".
Now shut your trash talking pie hole so I don't have to whup your ass and discipline you in front of your friends too.
Buddha, if he keeps his chaps on and rides on thru to the French Quarter this weekend for Southern Decadence Fest, he may very well find himself a 'Brian'. ----------
Crescent City Harmonica Club Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
Last Edited by on Sep 03, 2010 11:13 AM
This thread has degraded into nothing I want to participate in. No religion, no misogyny, no politics, no racial or ethnic interests, nothing. Just tone, Ramsey and Walter Jacobs. "Modern" harmonica, indeed.
I didn't know you played with Pinetop, good job, H-Town!
I'm with you on staying out of the overly furry sound.
My local harp mentor that I have acquired from the Ted Hall blues jam has a totally custom rig...and it is so dang furry. It sounds very murky and has zero slice to my ears, and he is a great player!
Everyone tells me to turn up, which he forbids. Then I ask them if they can hear him very well and they say no.
The harp attack sound you set up at Dan Electro's still haunts me...it had that snarly distortion, but very "crisp", like clear separation between holes and their interplay...that's what I want.
It kind of reminds me of what I love about Billy Gibbons (ZZ Top) guitar tone pre Eliminator, cutting but clear and rich.
I could see how the bulletizer could give my sm57 the best of all worlds, cup it really tight for a furry comp rhythm thing, loosen cup for more cutting clarity for solos or ornaments. ---------- Shane
Any board back then was a tube amp! some boards would not distort just because the they put a volume pot that wouldn't drive the preamp into distortion, but most of them would distort easily with a high impedence mic. I'm just saying it is possible?
there wasn't much difference between amps and PAs in LWs day. they were all vacuum tube.
i once had a Masco that was a record player, PA, and instrument dealy. plugging in direct didn't garuantee a clean sound like the modern, efficient boards. ---------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
I'm not sure which Little Walter amped tone is the best as I like so many of them, Rocker, Off the Wall, Watch Yourself, Fast Boogie, Blues with a Feeling, You're so Fine, the list goes on.
I suspect though that pretty much any Princeton amp would give you an approximation of the tone to which Mike is referring. Of course it won't be exactly the same, as most of Pat Ramsey's sound was Pat himself. I find that my '65 Princeton Reverb Reissue gives a nice overdriven tone (in my opinion) when I want it too. Of course I can also have it clean when I want as well. The setting I use to get that overdriven sound is bass high, treble off, no reverb, volume on 5-7, using a Shure CM 99A86 in a bullet shell reasonably tight cupped but not to tight, miced into the PA with a Low-z Shure 545SD. Here's what it sounds like (you'll have to forgive the bad playing!):
Zack, it's not bad form to name-drop in this situation; in fact, it's bad form not to do so--you made the claim, so you provide the evidence to support it. If Sam Lay told you that, for example, say so. Chess Records' penchant for running guitars straight into the board @ their own studio is a matter of public record so it wouldn't be a surprise if they managed to push LW into trying that.
The reason I suggested "Rocker" MIGHT be straight into the board is that it sounds like the distortion might be steady low-level input clipping. Maybe from going straight in the board, or maybe it's a miced amp that's a hair too hot into the board. Or maybe it's a badly worn or mismatched pair of main tubes, as it sounds not unlike a badly worn pair of Sovtek 5881s to me--another thing that could create a steady low-level edgy distortion, but is sheer speculation on my part. February of 1954, there's a possibility LW brought his custom National rig in after months on the road and the main tubes are worn out (mains may have been real 5881s if my 1954 Stage Star is any indication).
Easier to get the sense of that grind w/ 6V6GT as Kingley suggests; quite easy to run a lot of early 1950s twin-6V6 amps near there.
The Gruenling version reminds me why I dislike HarpKings so much. That murky, muddy, mushy low-fidelity tone doesn't do anything for me and IMO overdoes the "Rocker" tone--if you ask me, DG is actually straining to get some clarity out of it and it won't really do the clearer open-hands parts of the original.
The Sugar Ray video, IMO, shows a tone that is cleaner than the original and a tone that would have worked better than what's on the record. The SJ's tone, however, does not really get bright enough until SR turns his mic up, a little before 1:50--compare the warbles right after that to the ones he did at the beginning of the tune and you can hear that the mic is driving the amp harder. He turns the mic back down during the final chorus--watch his right hand, it's quick. Even with the mic turned up, though, IMO it's not the papery, furry sound or as harsh a bright edge as in the original, which is why I like it better.
If you want to hear either of those videos as exactly like the original tone, there's nothing I can do about that. Go ahead on. I'm not even gonna clean & inspect my pair of Joe Manton's best over it. However, I will suggest that you dig out Gary Smith's version of "Sad Hours" on the Mountain Top West Coast Blues Session record for a sense of what LW-through-a-tweed-Champ sounds like: there's a miced Champ in an iso booth in a picture in the liner notes, w/ Smith blowing in the background. IIRC someone said it's an earlier Champ, not a 5F1, but I could have that wrong--sounds darker like an early one, though. Anyway, IMO it still doesn't sound like "Rocker" and Smith doesn't use that tone all the time.
The sound in Dennis Gruenling's video may be a little distorted if I recorded it-I'll have to check. I used my Kodak digital camera-hardly a good representation of Dennis's tone and effortless playing-he never strains for notes or style. Also,he has been using the HarpKing 4x10 more lately-I think the Kt-88 tubes are warmer and a little bighter. He was using the 6x10 in this vid.
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2010 8:02 AM
Zack, you can hardly get snippy about me when you yourself have expressed an arrogance about the knowledge level on this board. Seriously, mate, how can you post such comments when we have people like Stephen, Mark and others posting excellent technical data here, as well as many who have played dozens of vintage amps and know what does what?
Thomas - sounded great to me - even given the technical limitations.
Last Edited by on Sep 05, 2010 8:10 AM
ev, YOU are the one that constantly gets 'snippy.' I have never downed anyone or been arrogant with my knowledge. Some of you don't get music theory? Fine, I never throw it in anyone's faces or jump at them for expressing such knowledge or anecdotes. I could care less about amplifiers, but the ones that do are great. Stop accusing me of doing something you have done yourself, I have only given my knowledge when people asked and never threw it at anyone.
@tmf714: I think you're right about the recorder--I forgot to qualify my reservations with that--and about not straining: I watched again and I think maybe he just spit up the works a bit or hung up on the coverplate around 1:15. I was interpreting the sound as the HK turned up further than usual or AFB turned up and it may well be that you were just too close to the stage right then, an example of what I mean by input clipping putting fur on most everything.
Dennis has if anything raised the bar on tonal nuances and textures by exploiting what a hot mic and custom harp can add to his physical gifts--I like to hear him play any song.
Zack, I apologise. I'll limit my engagements with people who are a little more robust and a little less sensitive. I'm sure your friends are better than all of us here.
Zack, please don't address any further comments to me unless you can accept an honest and robust response. I think it's clear that you are somewhat delicate, so please quit with the hurt girlfriend act.
Tone isnt even on my radar. Ive figured out the formula for that some time ago. All the amps and PA's and mic's in the world? Keep floating on by...they come and they go, but one thing wont ever change, the Kyzertone...
besides, when have you ever heard a patron in the crowd say: "That dude's tone was perfect"
Sorry, i dont buy it, it's how/what you play that gets booty's on the dance floor....
Ev, have you had a lot of experience with hurt girlfriends? You must considering you can easily compare me to one! But, I must say, I find your comment to be extremely misogynistic. Do you think women lurking here would like to see a guy comparing a teenager to a woman when you are using an obviously sexist description of how a female acts to describe me? That is awfully low of you and personally I think you should consider using your time to help yourself with gaining more respect for women instead of using it to insult me.
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2010 12:40 AM
Seems the other posters on this thread are doing their best to shift the discussion back to the topic at hand. As an occasional poster/frequent lurker I find you each have many valuable, insightful contributions to make - and really, it would be nice to have you back.
Last Edited by on Sep 07, 2010 2:17 AM