GermanHarpist
1701 posts
Aug 19, 2010
10:10 AM
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I read this topic being started on another thread:
Does the sound of the major scale change depending on which note you start on?
I know that back before equal temperament that was definitely the case. However, a friend of mine, who is rarely wrong, told me once that this is also the case in equal temperament.
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nacoran
2548 posts
Aug 19, 2010
10:39 AM
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I remember an article a while ago on Slate on the different tunings. I don't remember the conclusion though. I think this is the one I'm thinking of...
Slate
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Nate
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Last Edited by on Aug 19, 2010 10:40 AM
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arzajac
314 posts
Aug 19, 2010
2:32 PM
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We just got our piano tuned.
The scales sound exactly the same regardless of where you start - of course, the pitch is different but the intervals are the same.
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Jim Rumbaugh
291 posts
Aug 19, 2010
3:35 PM
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I believe on another thread a comment was made, "D major is the warmest key" I believe the question you are asking is," are some keys happy, some sad, some good, some bad? Some dark, some light? or are they all the same?"
My simple answer is, they are all the same, and the mathematician in me say that is haow it should be.
But I have had other musicians say,"it doesn't sound right unless you do the song in it's original key" This may true for certain individuals, but not for me.
@nacoran @ MrLong.. those are 2 good articles that explain why there may be truth to the keys having personalities when NOT in tempered tuning. That I can understand.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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MrVerylongusername
1176 posts
Aug 19, 2010
3:43 PM
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Ah yes, I missed the last sentence of the OP's post. Totally agree, it can only make sense on a "Well tempered" (i.e. not equal) instrument.
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nacoran
2552 posts
Aug 19, 2010
5:33 PM
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I suspect the 'original' key sounds right because it's what we are used to hearing over and over. There may also be some breaking points in specific instruments. I play some Celtic sounding stuff and I usually play that in first position in the key of D. Lower keyed harps don't respond quite as quickly and higher keys sound a little squeally to me, so it's a balance of response and human hearing range. Mathematically, keys ain't what they used to be.
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Nate
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GermanHarpist
1702 posts
Aug 20, 2010
5:44 AM
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Yes,... tempered. As I said, I read numerous times that this is the case with just intonation, but that this (although less present) is also the case with equal tempered tuning I only heard from this guy. An urban myth of sorts.. :)
nacoran, the reason that we like to hear songs in their original key is probably also due to the hight in which one sings it/perceives it.
I realise more and more that I'm really just comfortable singing in one octave or so and also when I think music (melodies, etc.) I probably rarely leave the two octave range. So one note difference covers 1/7th of my actual musical scope... i.e. quite a lot.
Anyway, I'm sure although strange at first, after you jam it in a different key for a while you'll also get used to that difference in pitch.
Last Edited by on Aug 20, 2010 5:45 AM
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Diggsblues
459 posts
Aug 20, 2010
6:24 AM
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I think the Composers Scriabin and Nikolai Rimsky-Korsakov might disagree with those that think
they're all the same.
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How you doin'
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GermanHarpist
1704 posts
Aug 20, 2010
6:32 AM
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Diggs,... if they don't have a street name in " ", it just hasn't got the same value, get my drift?
Try NIkolai Rimsky 'old dog' Korsakov and you migth get my attention.
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Andrew
1128 posts
Aug 20, 2010
7:31 AM
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My dog says there's no difference between red and green.
My uncle says there's no difference between red and purple.
I can't see the difference between red with a wavelength of 740nm and red with a wavelength of 741 nm, but I won't tell you that you can't.
However, my rods and cones are half the size of those of the average person, so I see everything with twice as much detail as a lot of people.
Tell me I don't.
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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hvyj
544 posts
Aug 20, 2010
7:54 AM
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I've always thought that different keys have different "personalities" or "colors." FWIW, a lot of very good musicians I've been around have felt the same way. For example, tune will sound different played in D than in, say, Ab and the difference is not limited to just a difference in pitch. I'm not sure I could describe or characterize the difference in words, though. But I can hear it.
Frankly, I'm surprised that this concept has provoked such debate. I've always been under the impression that it was more or less a given--a widely recognized and commonly known fundamental aspect of music. Live and learn.
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Jim Rumbaugh
292 posts
Aug 20, 2010
11:00 AM
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I don't hear differences.
I change keys A LOT
One week we do the tune in G, next week in E
If someome in the group doesn't have the right harp, I say, "Ok, lets change key to ......."
To me,tempo, grove, and chords set the feel, not the key.
Yes some keys are easier to sing, and some harp keys are easier to play, but I, ME, MYSELF, do not hear the difference, but I do respect the right for OTHERS to hear the difference. (but I then I say,"too bad, we're changing keys anyway":)
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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MrVerylongusername
1183 posts
Aug 20, 2010
11:12 AM
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@Andrew
I'm saying nothing about your perception, but i think it must be really amazing to have a talking dog! Does he solve crimes and eat giant sandwiches too?
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Andrew
1129 posts
Aug 20, 2010
12:33 PM
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No, he prefers canapés.
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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ZackPomerleau
1014 posts
Aug 20, 2010
12:47 PM
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"Does the sound of the major scale change depending on which note you start on?"
Playing a major scale (such as C) and starting on a different note does sound different, it is called a mode.
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Andrew
1130 posts
Aug 20, 2010
11:58 PM
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"Playing a major scale (such as C) and starting on a different note does sound different, it is called a mode."
It's called a mode by mediaeval church organists and by 21st century harmonica players.
By 21st century musicians it's called playing the scale of C major starting and ending on D, E, F, whatever.
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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ZackPomerleau
1018 posts
Aug 21, 2010
12:14 AM
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Andrew, every theoretical text will say that is a mode. It is theory, not some voodoo. The key signature states the KEY but the mode is determined by the resolving note of the piece.
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MrVerylongusername
1186 posts
Aug 21, 2010
12:33 AM
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OK now I'm confused. What was the OPs question about?
Was it...
1. That different major keys (i.e. C major vs D major) inspire different feelings - true in a well tempered tuning, but debatable in equal tuning
or
2.That different modes (and Andrew, Guitarists talk about modal scales all the time) have different feels - true and well documented.
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ZackPomerleau
1019 posts
Aug 21, 2010
12:38 AM
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Well, he said starting on different notes which would imply modes, which is why I made the statement I did. We all play modes whether we know so or not.
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Andrew
1131 posts
Aug 21, 2010
1:09 AM
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MrV, would these be the same guitarists who hate playing in the key of F (see the thread on the Bb harp)?
(Don't get angry - I'm only playing with you)
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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GermanHarpist
1715 posts
Aug 21, 2010
2:13 AM
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Zack, modes?
" Does the sound of the MajOr scale change Depending on which notE you Start on? "
I see how you came to that conclusion (...ignoring most of what I wrote..).
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GermanHarpist
1716 posts
Aug 21, 2010
2:50 AM
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An ambiguous sentence... yes. An ambiguous post? An ambiguous thread? Context, my brother. Context.
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Andrew
1132 posts
Aug 21, 2010
3:14 AM
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To express it in a totally different, and hopefully unambiguous way (well, to express something at least - it may not be what GH was asking). Say you take a piece of music like Beethoven's Moonlight sonata slow movement, and say it's in the key of C minor (I haven't played it for more than 30 years, so I can't remember, but it really doesn't matter).
Say you transpose it to C# minor. Some listeners will perceive immediately that it is "wrong"; I probably wouldn't.
Some will perceive it as wrong because they have perfect pitch and know that it's in C# minor not C minor.
Others who don't have perfect pitch will perceive that the "colours" or "tonalities" are wrong. They can also tell in this way if the piano is out of tune.
I don't know how they do it - it may have something to do with ET or it may have something do do with the way the notes of the chords beat together. Or it may even be genuinely a form of synaesthesia, which is even further from my realm of experience.
I'm not certain about how "ET" is achieved on the piano - it may be that every note is ET, but I think it very possible that certain notes, such as the fourths and fifths with respect to middle C are JI and the rest of the notes are ET. This would cause different chords to resonate differently (I haven't watched a piano tuner at work for 35 years).
If the question is "does D major sound differently if commenced on E rather than on D, or on F#?", then I'd say not to me, and I'd be surprised if anyone claimed the answer for them was yes. Take for example Mozart - a lot of his music is constructed from scales. The number of notes in a scale-phrase is governed by the rhythm and length of the phrase. Say the phrase has to end on the tonic. If there's only room for 6 notes, and it's in C major, then the scale has to begin (if ascending) on E; if room for 7, it can begin on D. If you think that creates a totally different sound, then you may want to get checked for autism!
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Aug 21, 2010 3:28 AM
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MrVerylongusername
1189 posts
Aug 21, 2010
3:17 AM
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True - context is everything :-)
So since we're not talking modes, getting the thread back on course...
Synesthesia aside (I presume that's what Diggs was hinting at with the Scriabin & Rimsky Korsakov comment) can anyone who claims there is a difference back that up with a description of the difference?
[I think we should disregard synesthesia, since each person with the condition perceives the colour qualities of the sound differently]
If I recall, the whole topic started because Diggs made the statement in another thread that D major was brighter than other keys? can anyone expand on that?
I'm finding this hard to understand - surely tonal qualities like bright and dark are dependent on the harmonic content of the sound?
Does D major played as a series of pure sine waves, with no overtones still sound brighter than the equivalent C major? or is the matter dependent on the instrument(s) the scale is played on?
It would seem obvious that D being a high key on the harp would sound bright, but what if it's played in the low register of an ET tuned piano? (is there such a thing?)
EDIT - sorry Andrew, not ignoring your post, just posting at the same time. I'll have to cogitate on that a little!
Last Edited by on Aug 21, 2010 3:25 AM
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Andrew
1133 posts
Aug 21, 2010
3:21 AM
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Sorry, MrV I've doubled the length of my post!
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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MrVerylongusername
1190 posts
Aug 21, 2010
3:33 AM
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Having read your post Andrew, now I'm starting to wonder if I shouldn't be too hasty to disregard synesthesia.
Perhaps there is a sound-emotional synesthesia? this would explain why there are people who can detect differences and those that cannot. But surely that would be subject to the same debate that your dog and your uncle have ;-)
I cannot perceive any differences other than pitches.
Last Edited by on Aug 21, 2010 3:35 AM
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Andrew
1134 posts
Aug 21, 2010
3:43 AM
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Yes, I would assume that (literal) colour perception is just one (extreme) of many forms of synaesthesia.
Aargh, I keep forgetting the goddam spam prevention code. At least it's not crappy HTML that loses what you've typed!
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Andrew,
gentleman of leisure,
noodler extraordinaire.
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ZackPomerleau
1020 posts
Aug 21, 2010
1:31 PM
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German Harpist, if you pick a MAJOR scale and start on ANY note it becomes a different MODE. Now pick a whole tone scale and do the same thing, it's not a mode. So, yes, this is easily mistaken.
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phogi
450 posts
Aug 21, 2010
2:31 PM
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There is on important factor that has not been mentioned:
All major keys are functionally identical except in two important ways:
1)Instruments are real, not theoretical, and will sound different in different keys. Why? Because all instruments have real working ranges, which they were built for. Example: Capo a guitar up several frets. The sound of identically fingered chords has a different quality. Te instrument projects the sound differently.
There is another real way in whch different keys are different:
2) Instruments are played by people, and people have different conceptions of the sound of certain keys. This will likely influence the musical choices they make.
Is D warmer? It is if you are writing for orchestra. But D on a guitar is bright. A is warmer on the guitar. 2nd pos harmonica? C is a shrill key. D is deep and low.
They are only identical if you place your focus on the function of harmony. If, however, you also consider timbre, and also the human element, changing keys can radically alter the feel of a piece of music.
Make sense?
Last Edited by on Aug 21, 2010 2:31 PM
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ZackPomerleau
1021 posts
Aug 21, 2010
4:45 PM
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Phogi makes a good point.
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nacoran
2588 posts
Aug 21, 2010
6:19 PM
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Andrew, of course, Beethoven wasn't written to be used with modern tunings so if we could get him hear with a time machine he'd probably be upset with the performance, even if it was in the 'original' key!
I suppose with electronic music if you want to have more control you could customize the tuning of each note as it played. I suppose we do that to some extent with bends. I wonder what the threshold for human hearing is for differentiating between pitches. I'd imagine it even changes when you play it with another note instead of in isolation.
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Nate
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