OK I was at an open stage last night. A guy played a song in Gm. The song was 3/4 over before I figured out I could play on it in 3rd with a low F. It was working,although I picked some wrong notes. Afterword the guitarist said Gm is the same as Bb. Just what the hell is he talking about? He said it was the relative minor. I'm really,really ignorant of music theory. How much of this stuff do I need to know to be a better player?
P.S. Please word your answers in terms a 7 y.o. can understand. That's about my level on theory.
You can also play a Bb harp in Gm using 4th position
It's not great for minor blues, though, if that's what you were playing. Mainly because you can't get the flat-five blue note (unless you can play the 4 OB)
I don't think you kneed to know any of it to be a better player. How would it have helped you to know that Bb is the relative major of G minor? It wouldn't. Would it have helped you to select the correct harp more quickly? No. And if you're a harp player, you're playing by ear anyway. It sounds as though your problem is more to do with not playing much in 3rd position. And is it the case that it is so rare for a popular musician to play in a minor key that he hasn't got a clue what notes are in it? ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
OK I think. But playing cross in Eb won't work,I don't think. What am I missing? I think I might be biting off more than I can chew.
Last Edited by on Aug 04, 2010 8:54 AM
No, I think he was either blinding you with science (what mood was he in?) or trying to be helpful in a not-so-helpful way. It may be that he thought you play notes rather than holes, and it may be that he sometimes meets a guitarist or pianist who plays notes, but who is not experienced enough to know what notes are in a minor key, but that's why one practises scales. ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Taking a look at a piano is the easiest way to figure it out. If you just play the white keys you can play C Major or A minor. C major is C C# D D# E F F# G G# A A# B C (the struck letters are the black keys, which you don't play.) A minor is the same notes, but starting on A. On a piano, each note is a half step from the note next to it, whether it's a white key next to a white key or a white key next to a black key.
A major key is a pattern of notes: whole step, whole step, 1/2 step, whole step, whole step, whole step, 1/2 step (the same pattern you get if you play just the white keys starting on C. The pattern for a minor key is whole step, 1/2 step, whole step, whole step, 1/2 step, whole step, whole step. If you take the time to write out the two patterns on top of each other (each one repeats over and over) they line up so C works as a major key and A minor works as a minor key.
All the other major and minor keys follow the same pattern of whole steps and half steps, only starting on different notes. On the piano this takes some fancy counting, playing black and white keys. You have to do some of that fancy counting on Chromatic harmonicas too, but on a diatonic it's harp is only white keys, and the black keys are the bends, overblows, blowbends and overdraws. It's all about that pattern. On a C harmonica the minor key starts on the A, just like the white key pattern on the harmonica.
All the circle of fifths is is a clever, handy way to show that pattern so you can figure it out quickly. Print up a copy of it and put it on the inside of your harp case if you need to. Not only does it show you the relative minor keys, it also lets you figure out what note to start on for every harmonica position, just by following it around the circle using the harp in your hand as the starting point (1st position.) There are some more complicated reasons why the circle of fifths works, but in the end it all comes down to starting on a note and making those patterns!
Tuckster, I have had the same thing happen. THe jam leader says it is in Dm, but play it in B. I finally figured it out. What is worse when you ask for the key and the guys says "you need a C harp"....This tells me nothing. He was probably guessing at what 2nd position would be, but he may be wrong and I might want to play in another position.
The guitarist was trying to be helpful. He's in his early 60's and has earned a living playing. Well versed in music theory. He did just confuse me. I knew 3rd position would fit,but didn't have enough time on the song to play what fit.It was over before I could find the groove. Yes, I had to tell my very knowledgeable bass player to quit telling me the crossed key and just give me the key of the song. I never think of it as holes,but as notes. Unfortunately I can't tell you the name of those notes. I play with some very experienced musicians and they have a language I don't understand. It's like shorthand,so you don't have to fumble around trying to figure out what notes work.
Cross harp for, for instance Bb Major, is F Major. 11th position for Bb Major is Ab Major. Ab Major's relative minor is f minor.
Someone should make one of those code wheels like you used to need to play video games. One ring could be the harmonica you have in your hand, the next ring in could be the harp position and the last ring could be the relative minor.
Along with learning the positions, also learning where all the notes are available on the instrument, both unbent, bent, as well as OB/OD is very important.
The basic idea of the circle of 5ths is that the way a chord is made up is generally root note, 3rd, and 5th.
Take a key of C harmonica as an example. 1st position you play in C, and so the root note is C, the 3rd is E, the 5th is G. Now from the 5th, here comes 2nd positon, which is G,and so the notes in the G chord is G, the 3rd is B, the 5th is D, and son on and so one. Do you see the pattern happening?? Not as difficult as you thought it was.
Scales are essentially note patterns and once you understand the patterns, it becomes easier. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Minor tunes can be dealt with in several ways. In the end it's what you feel and hear that will your guide that being said here is some of my theory. You got the relative minor stuff. You were playing dorian wich is a minor approach treating the minor as if it was a II chord. You can also go blues cross harp depending on the tune. With the relative minor system there is the natural minor (Buddha gave that to you) the harmonic minor raise the seventh a half step. The melodic minor raise sixth and seventh going up and play the natural minor coming down. There's more minors but this is enough A traditional theory class won't show you how to improv with this stuff but it's a start.
Here is a tune that falls in A minor. I use the A natural minor, A harmonica minor A dorian, A blues and maybe A minor pentatonic
OK So far,BBQ explains it so I can understand a little. So it's just a matter of patterns, like those math problems where they give you a sequence of numbers and you have to come up with the next number in the sequence?Music theory and math seem to be related. I play "Story Monday" in 2nd. Even though it's a minor key song,3rd sounds too "minor" 2nd is better for me,but I have to be careful because some notes don't fit. My patterns are different than "normal" 2nd position,? Is that where intervals come into play? Can I look at music theory as math?
Last Edited by on Aug 04, 2010 11:56 AM
This is the best chart I have seen about scales and modes. Takes time to figure it out, but worth it. Try this on the site. On the far left column, click on "C" as the harmonica, 2nd row click on "A" as the scale key which would be the band key. Click on natural minor in the 3rd column and you will see the scale in green notes. You only need one bend to play the scale. Count up from the letter A in the second column until you get to "C"...1,2,3,4 so you are in 4th position. This really helps you learn what positions are best for what modes and scales. http://www.overblow.com/?menuid=26#
You can change to different harp tunings on the right as well.
Tuck, yeah, it's just a math pattern! It's easiest to see on a piano. Almost all theory teachers teach a little piano, but if you can run through the notes in your head and count the spaces you can figure out what notes are in any key by counting from the first note.
I have a keyboard buddy that's willing to give me lessons. He even said I could take a keyboard home for awhile. I believe I'll take him up on that. I think the visual aspect will help.
When you learn about the keyboard, even where the notes are laid out are ALL in a pattern so that you can see things quite well visually.
If you look at a piano keyboard CAREFULLY, one of the first things you'll notice that the black keys are set up in repeating patterns of 2's and 3's.
To find a C anywhere on the piano, it's the 1st white key just before a pair of black keys.
To find a D, it's the white key in the middle of a pair of black keys.
To find an E, it's the white key to the right of the 2nd black key in a pair of black keys.
To find an F, it's the last white key to the right of pair of black keys,
To find a G, it's the first white key just to the left of a group of 3 black keys.
To find an A, it's the white key in the middle of a group of 3 black keys.
To find a B, it's the white key just to the right of a group of 3 black keys.
Now this pattern repeats itself in every octave.
If I remember correctly, I believe if you go to this freebie site http://www.musictheory.net, there should be a keyboard diagram showing you this layout. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
BBQ B-harp being the only instrument I've ever played,that seems almost like cheating! To have everything layed out in a logical, orderly fashion,with "markers",so you always know where you're at. Perhaps harmonica is not the best instrument to learn music theory.
Tuckster, how much time have you spent on learning where all the notes are on the harmonica?? Why do I ask?? The reason is that too many players take damned close to ZERO time learning where everything is and often won't understand the note layout patterns in any or all the harmonicas they've played and frequently get lost because they're just butting their heads into a wall and hoping for the best and pray they don't embarrass the living hell out of themselves.
Music theory CAN be learned on the harmonica, and even tho I also play a bit of guitar, I took the time to teach myself theory and too many harp players are often too frightened or unwilling to make even a cursory effort to do so.
If you take the time to study the note layout chart on a harmonica, and COMMIT THEM TO MEMORY, everything will make more sense to the point that you don't have to think about it so much.
Piano is the easiest for learning theory because everything is all laid out right there for you, but learning theory for harmonica is basically only as difficult as you yourself make it so.
The freebie site I mentioned is an excellent site that you can learn at your own pace and it will pay dividends. I wish this was out when I started out back in the 70's.
Sites like http://www.coast2coastmusic.com have complete note layout charts for just about every single harmonica they sell from diatonics to chord harps, bass harps, polyphonias, tremelo, octave harps, you name it and I advise EVERY harp player to take the time to study them and commit it to muscle memory and then you'l make a lot fewer mistakes and if you do, you can eventually work your way out of it so that it doesn't sound like you just hit a clam and just hid it by turning it into a passing tone.
So study the patterns on both the harmonica as well as the piano and then you can see how they all work.
Even with a guitar, in the standard tuning, which from lowest to highest string, is E-A-D-G-B-E, and each fret, like a keyboard, represents 1/2 step.
What does it boil down to?? It's basically all about patterns and understanding them. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@tuckster: G minor IS easily playable on an Eb harp in FIFTH position. Use 2 blow for root, don't bend anything but draw 3 and try to avoid draw 5 and draw 9. There's more to it, but this simple formula will work effectively to get you started.
Actually, the breath pattern you use is the same as you would use for playing the major pentatonic scale in second position. This works because Bb is the relative major of G minor which means, as Buddha said, both scales have the same notes, but just start on a different note.
So the pentatonic minor scale in FIFTH position is the same breath pattern as the pentatonic major scale in SECOND position which means if you are able to play in second position, playing in fifth position should be no problem. AND you can play w/ blues phrasing very easily in fifth position. Personally, I like to play minor blues in fifth position.
The problem using third position for all minors is you get a major 6th, which works for dorian minors, but sounds really bad if you are playing a natural minor tune and hit that note. Fourth and fifth position give you minor 3d, minor 6th and flat 7th without having to bend, so are good for playing natural minor tunes. You can bend to get major 7th in fourth position, so fourth can be also used for playing harmonic minor.
@GamblersHand: I agree it's harder to play with blues phrasing in fourth position, but you CAN get the flat 5th by bending blow 8.
Last Edited by on Aug 04, 2010 5:31 PM
Thanks to all of you. You've given me enough to keep busy for quite a while. I went to music theory.net and read some of that. Now my head is pounding.This 61 year old dog is having trouble learning new tricks. A lot of it would be hard to apply in an improvisational situation. Basically,I'm trying to understand the language the pro musicians are using when they talk about how a song is to be played. I have a pretty good intuitive grasp of what works musically. I can do tension and resolution pretty well. I can phrase decently in my comfort zone. At this open stage,I try to stay out of my comfort zone. That's where I'm having trouble.
It`s also important to challenge yourself so that you don`t just lie still in your comfort zone wallowing away and never progressing because life is a non stop learning curve and once you stop learning, you stop progressing. Are you gonna learn it in a matter of hours or days? Of course not as the that very old but true saying, "Rome wasn`t built in a day," (to which Shemp Howard of the 3 Stooges replied, "Neither was Syracuse!"). ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Yes,I guess I am learning theory ever so slowly. I'll keep hacking away at it. Anyone who can work a Stooges quote into a post has my undying admiration. ;)
Don't feel bad about it. If you are not feeling a little uncomfortable and uncertain you are not growing and developing as a player. You must get out of your comfort zone as BBQ Bob says.
I'm self taught myself and play no instruments besides the harmonica. The basic practical working knowledge of music theory I've acquired was picked up by listening to what experienced musicians I was playing with were saying, asking them questions about music and paying close attention to what they told me. Then some self study was required to apply this sort of information to the harmonica.
The most useful thing I did was look at charts of what notes (by letter name) correspond to which holes in which key on the 12 keys of Richter tuned diatonic harmonicas.
Another useful thing to do is learn to "spell" the scales in all 12 major keys.
Musicians speak in terms of letter names of notes and to understand what is going on you need to know how to "spell" the different scales and you also need to know the relationship of scale tones to chord tones. So, you need to know how the notes of the scales are put together to "build" different types of chords.
There are letter names for chords and there are shorthand names for different types of chords such as "dominant" "major" "minor" "augmented" "diminished", etc. You need to know, or at least have a general idea about, what note groupings those terms refer to. It seems much more complicated than it actually is, but this stuff is not really all that hard to pick up over time if you make the effort. The nomenclature may actually be more difficult than the concepts.
Some musicians know more than others, some are more willing to explain stuff than others,and some explain things better than others. But, in my experience, many good musicians are very willing to share their knowledge with an interested beginner if you ask the right questions. The problem is that they may not know how what they are telling you applies to harp which is where the self study becomes important.
And, btw, learning to PLAY different scales on the harp is a very useful way to start learning this stuff.
Last Edited by on Aug 05, 2010 10:02 AM
