Well i was sitting here thinking of all the threads lately .. And still there are alot of negative and not enought positive ... This thread is for the old timers and new to come ... That little paper that came with yur first harp .. If only i dident toss it away ... I was so excited to get my first harp ... i was 12 .. I dident care about that little paper i wanted to see the Harp ... That was in 1974.. The thing is if only i looked at that paper it shows how to TB right off the bat ....Back when i was learning the only popular music was Rock .. i remember trying to play like Blood Sweat & Tears ... And when i die..And Credence Clearwatter .. Keep on Chuglain ... if i spelled it right ... and then i heard the Blues.. By Cream ... Jack Bruce playing harp on The first time i met the Blues ... I was jamming and still after buying more than one harp since then ... Never looked at the info on the paper ....Im a Pucker all the way player ... Even after my brother told me about James Cotton and i been listening to him for a while now ... And seen him peform many times ... But every time i saw him live i always said to myself ... Man how does he get that Deep Tone ... Tone to me is worth more than anything els ... I asked James backstage many times to show me how he gets that deep sound ...He would only let me listen ... He would say Deak Listen ... and he would play a mean 2 Hole draw with the Biggest Sound ... That weekend after i dropped the James Cotton Band off in Chicago and parked the Van in Cottons Garage .. and went upstairs in his house ... Cotton asked me again ... Deak let me have that harp case you got and ill give you mine to put yur harps in ....I agreed and we swiched harps in the cases ... His had a broken lock so i had to add a Velcro strap to hold it together .... When i got home after driving 15 hours to NJ i pulled out my A harp this is about 1989/90. I got it i did my first TB 2 hole with some good tone ...i went right into learning the Creeper Creeps Again ... and worked on my runs up and down TB bends and walks .. and incorperated TB into my playing live ever since i am satisfied with my tone ... Now im not saying that this is going to be a thread about TB VS LP ... This is where i finaly learned that TB .. With Diaphram, Vibrado ,, And Good Air Flow .. you get Great Tone .And when Cotton changed his lineup After his sergery for throat cancer ... I had the privlidge to play with Luther Tucker, Daryl Nulich, and Dave Maxwell .. and try out my TB skills with the best ... While i was still working for James ,, i was his Driver/ RD MGR ..now 36 yrs later ...If i only read that little paper before I started playing my harp ....To me Tone is the most important thing to playing harp ... Nuthing worse than a guy with a 50 watt amp and no tone ... Ouch ,, Bright ,,,
I hear ya, deak. Mine was a Lee Oskar, and introduced me to second position. With no other peers and no internet, that's all I had. I would have plodded around lost for a long time if it weren't for that little paper. ----------
Crescent City Harmonica Club Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
I totally failed @tongue blocking when I pulled out that tiny piece of paper in my marine band over 30 years ago but tried to lip purse and succeeded--but you fellows have convinced me that tb is superior altho I only do it playing octaves
I barely remember my 1st harp i was a little kid and had to have 1 my Grandpa got it for me,He said that all good harp players play MB,this was in the mid 70's I cant remeber ,if it was a MB,How long i had it,and nobody in my family knows why he Knew the harp to get was a MB,Im sure i read the paper but it would of looked like greek to me.
Nice post,Deak. Well,I read that paper and tried to TB. That's impossible!,I said. LP was much easier for me. As a newbie I thought it was an either/or technique. I played for a long time before I started TB. I still have to consciously make myself do it-I naturally fall back to LP. Still,I don't know how I ever did without it.
P.S.--No matter how hard I try,I still can't get that Cotton tone. He's the man! Does he exclusively TB?
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2010 11:39 AM
My fave is still the suzuki instructions "Don't swing your harmonica around. You may hurt yourself or your friends."
i did pay attention to the instructions when a kid, then as a older teen went over to lip purse, but fell back to tb when wanting to really articulate notes, and once I heard Sonny Terry, had to use the tongue. Now mix it up...
1) TB allows a wide range of rhythmical counterpoint patterns to the melody being played. 2) TB allows chords on non-adjacent holes 2a) TB allows octaves 3) TB allows corner switches 4) TB gets enough harp in your mouth that it becomes physically possible to block all the remaining holes on the front of the harp with your cheeks and thumbs. This in turn gives far deeper Wah sounds than any other method, whether played acoustically or amplified.
TB is not superior? I'm not saying you need to TB all the time - I don't but only because I can't. I wish I could. But TB has several very distinct advantages as I mentioned above. Can you defend your position?
TB has another advantage, and that's with speed and to get more speed, classical harp teachers recommend TB, but rather than moving your head, they teach you to move the harmonica in a slight arc so that it is much more fluid and the fewer movements you make with the head, the smoother it is.
One thing the instruction paper that comes with Suzuki harps that the average player tends to completely ignore is that it warns you not to grip the instrument too hard so that you avoid crushing the cover plates and most players don't pay any attention to that at all and many DO grip their harps far too hard.
I personally advocate learning both methods and I use both methods, often switching in mid phrase and I know Kim Wilson does this a lot as well. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Do they still put those little instructional papers in Hohner harps? I haven't seen one in a really long time or I just stopped noticing.
I started playing using lip pursing. I did that exclusively for a long time. Eventually, I stumbled on tongue blocking and started working on it. Now, I mix the two. Most of the time, I don't realize that I am doing it. No one has ever described my tone as thin.
When I do the wah-wah effects, most of the effect is coming from my hands. If I am blocking holes with my cheek, it's a good indicator that the harp is a higher pitched harp (like an E, F or F#) or it isn't very airtight. I picked up that from watching Mark Hummel. I don't ever remember anyone in Chicago blocking of holes with their cheek.
I hear you Deak...I remember my first harp....in the late 60's on the steps of my best friends house tryin to play CCR's "Poor Boy Shuffle". I wanted to be a drummer but my parents would not buy me a drum set...so I went down to the music store and bought a MB for about $4.50. I learned how to play by TB'ing from the instruction sheet....I never knew there was another way until watching Adam's videos.
---------
Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. - Charlie Parker
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2010 2:00 PM
i can defend his position greg....theres pros and cons to both, as you know, and as far as floating around like a butterfly on the harp, nothing beats LP'ing... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
James Cotton is a TB Exclusively on most of his playing ... Except the blow bends ... so i would say he is 96% ... And Me too im 96% i dont TB the 1 hole or the Blow Bends 7 up ... sometimes i will bend the 6 draw LP . But then i will go back to TB it too .. i swicth off if i want to articulate a run .. but then i go right back to TB .. Like Greg said .. The rhythm vamping and T Swicthing is great .. for when you are a sideman like me now ...Rhythm Harp .. keeps you in the song so you arent standing there waiting for a solo ... looking waiting for the leader to say Go ...I learned to keep good rhythm being a sideman for the last year and a half ...TS =Tongue Slapping in first pos .. in the key of E with a lo E .. instead of a A harp .. and vise a versa first pos in A and also G .. there my fav keys to play first pos ... and you get a great Fat Tone with those lo harps ...I mainly dont play harps past the key of C unless they are Lo Tuned harps .. But like i said I like the lower tuned harps A,Bb,G, reg and Lo F,C,D,E cus i like Bass sounding reeds ... in the lower octaves in the key chart ... Playing a F harp with 50 Watts ... just hurts anyone in the first row ....
Kyzer - a weak defense. I don't believe LP makes you any faster. But it takes away all the things I mentioned. So saying TB is not superior is still a bullshit claim in my book - you have people like Deak, Joe, BBQBob, Walter all saying TB gives you some important abilities. The only people I know who think LP is fully adequate are those who don't know how to tongue block. You should know both to be a complete harp player. ---------- /Greg
It is obvious who plays which way in this thread...lol...I won't bring up all the positives of lip pursing, but I will say it is possible to play rhythms without tongue blocking.
After I learned to play single notes I started on Gussow lesson .006 ...2 hole draw and opening slightly. He does a chug in the vid. I've found his method works well in a 12 bar boogie style as well. There are also places to do it on 4 hole draw bent and open up to the chord.
In this video I am trying to learn to apply his methods to 1st position bluegrass. My cam is a cheapo and making a video makes me nervous for some reason. I can play in front of 300 no prob...but those damn cams..lol...I lost the beat a little but you get what I'm trying to do.
This is Wildwood Flower and my tongue never touches the harp.
I've see Adam do this thing by changing his embouchur and can nail the creeper yes ... it is amazing to see him do it ...he proved it to me ... and but that is Adam .. he is a Monster Harp Man ...he invented that tec. Kyzer i think you are right in a way too .. Cus i cant go real fast scale wize with TB and i know that ... I sacrificed speed for tone ... and im happy with that ... But i can slap down a boogie walk line ... real fast ... and i can Tongue Warble back and forth a octave real fast and side to side single note warble ... real fast ... and i always got Great Tone .... You can get a mean tone LP too that is why the pro's play both .. i can do either or ... But i think it is alot harder to get a good tone LP and alot of players forget to have good tone while learning harp . They learn to buy amps nice mic's thinking that will give them the tone they want . Cotton told me long ago ... You need to make the harp sound good first ... then get a amp ...
i'll never find that piece of paper now! i can't even remember the year i threw it out. ---------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
i would allmost bet every harp no matter what brand,Has the song (Oh susanha)printed on that white paper,a true classic:-)
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2010 11:59 PM
I read that paper! But I didn't like TB'ing - LP was much more comfortable, and much more successful for me. And as I read books that extolled TB's advantages, I would try and go back to LP. Jon Gindick himself even told me - face to face - that he's never heard a TB'er with bad tone (an occasional problem of mine at the time). Tried again, went back. Annie Raines taught me a great little 12 bar that uses octaves; kept TB'ing "on the shelf"...
Finally, while working on tweaking an old favorite of mine - "House of the Rising Sun" - I threw in a few octaves, and loved how they fit in. It was clumsy to fit them in while LP'ing, so I caved and started playing that whole song TB, then converted entirely for about a year.
On most of my harps, though, I could never bend as cleanly TB'ing as LP'ing, so eventually I decided to use "all the tools in my toolbox" and became biharmonic, and now mix-and-match both methods...
Awesome book. I loved the history part. Usually, the the history parts of the books the companies put out are about 70 percent wrong. This Herb Shriner instruction book one is different. The history is 100 percent bullcrap. I loved all those pictures of Herb Shriner. I was expecting to see him light up an Old Gold cigarette, but he didn't. Here's Herb Shriner, for those who don't remember him.
In the Shriner book, after you're done finger blocking, Herb has you tongue blocking. You know what's better than tongue blocking or even lip pursing?
Doing both.
---------- www.harrisonharmonicas.com
"There are only two things money can't buy - true love and homegrown tomatoes." - Lewis Grizzard
Last Edited by on Jul 20, 2010 8:07 AM
I guess I had been playing about two years 'lipping'the harp when I first really took a good look at the slip of paper in the Marine Band box.
I had met my grandfather only three or four times and I remembered the way he sounded on his harp.When I followed the Hohner diagram showing the lips-cheeks and tongue I quickly recognized and understood how my grandfather was getting the rhythm section (tongue slap)sound I remembered.
After I discovered bending, like many players I found it much easier to get accurate bends while lip pursing and still do. These days(35 years later) my playing is a hybrid of tongue block and pucker.
agree with helix---I need my tongue to bend if I tongue block it seems to cause my tongue to go into extreme multi tasking--again I say tho from this forum tb seems to win out
Don't toss out that paper that comes with your harp because you may need to slide it under a reed for gapping or tuning purposes when you are out & around in public--it's lighter-gauge paper than paper money is & easier to slip under there.
Deak: Are you from NJ? I am and wonder if we ran around there at the same time? Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
i ran the streets of NY NJ all through the 90's Manny's Chicago B.L.U.E.S , Dan Lynches ,,,Jasons South Belmar , Stanhope House ,, Burbon St New Brunswic .NJ .. Then i moved to IL in 99 ..
We missed each other. I was in the Newark area until 79 and then went to California. Tramps, dan lynches, lone star cafe, other end, bottom line, were my NYC hangouts, but most of my time was spent in much more energized NJ clubs like Wallaces, the longhorn saloon, Bunny's, Cryans, unnamed after hours clubs in Newark, and sawdust covered floor dives in Newark when I was with Wilbert Harrison. I did gigs with Mark Ribot(ended up with Tom Waits for years) at Bunny's. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Deak: I was there the other day, going to star taveren to get IMO the best pizza in NJ, and saw Wallaces is now a Chinese restraunt. I went over and asked if I could go into the club area (it was walled off inside the restraunt). All the guy kept saying, as I tried to explain it was once a great music club, was "we have great food". After a few minutes of that I left. I sure miss the NJ places to eat. Restraunt food in Ohio by in large is not edible.
On the harp paper- I never did read one. I was too excited to start making noise on the harp! Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
With all the interest in harp papers, I looked at the papers that came with my Bushman and Suzuki harps. The Bushman instructions show third position harp and crossharp with G blues scale on a C harp aka second position,and straight first position harp. there is no mention on this sheet about tongue blocking or lip pursing. The Suzuki instruction book goes into whistle style and tongue assist style, plus it is written in Japanese for that language. It shows a position chart just like the Bushman instructions. It is in small print, the Bushman is printed larger on better quality paper. Never looked at them before, glad I did.
walterharp: Yes I have played with a lot of great musicians. Marc and I went to junior high and high school together. Many of the old black bluesmen took a liking to how I play, but most of the white blues guys that were making it never really have opened up to my playing. So, I went into finding clubs outside the blues scene and met lots of guys on the rock side of music. Many of them played in my band when they weren't touring. They were as supportive of my playing/approach as the old black guys were. Since the old black guys have passed, I have been steadily more disconnected with the blues scene. The white dominated blues scene of today is a whole different world than what I experienced with the old guys. That is sad, because I feel like my music is blues based. Maybe if I live long enough my ticket will come back around! Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
my playing style was exclusively LP for a lot of years- couple decades really. about 10 years ago i "discovered" 3rd position, chromatic harp, and octave blocking. partly thanks to a long phone call i made to deak. i still purse a lot, in fact mostly. i am a fairly old dog and i manage to get good tone and good note separation the way i play. nobody has come up and ragged me for not tbing at any point. say, 15 years ago, my tone was pretty thin. until i paid closer attention to guys like Cotton, Carey Bell, and a slew of others, and just worked and tried and found my way to better air column and wind control, learned to open my throat and pull from deep in my diaphragm.
there are so many ways to get good to great sound out of a harp. and i feel like it's late in the game for me to try a drastic change in technical style of playing. but more power to you TBers. who knows i may have a change of heart and try to join yo0ur ranks!
