I agree, Jay has great composure on stage and has a better feel for blues. I don't doubt for a moment that Alex will develop the same composure once he has more time on stage.
Correct me if I'm wrong ( I know you will jump at the chance), but Alex has been playing 3 years or somewhere thereabouts. I'm going to go out on a limb and say Jay has been playing 6 years. Both of them have obviously practiced very hard and put in the hours because they are worlds ahead of where I was at during either of those respective timeframes of my playing development.
Only now, 13 years in, have I begun to have the same feel for blues as Jay showed in the last clip with Bob. I know I certainly had and still have my moments of "playing at the band/audience" instead of for them. I can understand the urge to show off and be over the top and have succumbed to it.
I don't think what Alex displays in his clips deserves to be criticized so harshly. What I see is a young player that flew to the United States and is excited/overjoyed possibly nervous to be playing the venue with Bob. I would be.
How many of you have played harmonica with Bob Margolin at age 16? I see Jay and Alex raising their hands.
sure he plays lots of notes... so does Jason Ricci but, as with Jason, there is musical intelligence behind it... (not "cerebral vomit" Buddha...) if you had the ears to listen properly, you'd hear on all those fast phrases that Alex is brilliantly subdividing the beat into triplets, 8th notes, 16th notes, NOT easy to do on a slow blues. Maybe you need to put those solos through some slow-down software to hear it Buddha...
Alex has great tone, awesome vibrato, great overblow/bending technique and he swings like crazy. Jay is a good player, but his solos are less exciting and cutting edge...as for Alex not having his 'own sound', I think he does... Sure he's influenced by other players (who isn't?), but already I could easily pick him out from you, Jason or whoever... anyway, that will develop more in time (don't forget you're old enough to be his father).
I heard everything he played. Technique doesn't mean shit if you can't play music.
Where's the feeling? Where's the support? Where's the sharing?
He plays WITHOUT musical intelligence. He's playing the "cool stuff" when it has no appropriate application to the song he's playing. When a person is out there spewing meaningless notes to show off, it's cerebral vomit.
I can't hear his technique and I would rather listen to Xharp with his lesser technique but more appropriate player juxtaposed to Alex's monster technique applied inappropriately.
Alex is NOT cutting edge. He's regurgitating what others do. Jason Ricci is cutting edge. I'm cutting edge, Howard is cutting edge.
You say he has a defined sound but it's a combination of Jason and Me so how is that his sound? Jay has that same thing going on. I'm not saying Jay or Alex is a poor player, they are both very good but neither one has arrived. When they have arrived then people will start to sound like Jay Gaunt or Alex Paclin... right now Jay and Alex sound like Chris and Jason had a child. You can't deny that.
Who does Jason sound like? JASON Who does Adam sound like? ADAM Who does Little Walter sound like? Marion Jacobs
Do you get what I am saying?
They are not artist, they are not even true musicians yet, they both are very good harmonica players that are growing.
I don't care how old they are or how long they have been playing, if you're going to delude yourself and tell us that Alex is a top 2-3 player in the world then you sir do not have a clue as to what a real player is and further opinion from you should be discounted.
Ridge, nobody was being harsh with Alex. He's a ballsy little kid who thinks he can play in the real world. I guarantee both Jay and Alex will be the next monster harp players in the future but neither is such at the moment. Alex is much more ego driven than Jay. I can see it in his vids, hear it in his music and read it in his words.
Jay is much more grounded and if I had to bet on one or the other, Jay will emerge as the next dominant player on the scene with Alex behind him.
---------- "All is bliss"
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2010 8:10 AM
its a harp play it. I think custom harps are great but when we gets to the point that not having one becomes an excuse for not being able to play with feeling and groove i think the end of the road has arrived.
I don't care who plays better at all, but this 'head/heart' debate is really stupid. Some of the best musicians I hear play by the rules completely and just show off. Frank Zappa did that. No way did he play with 'soul.' I have seen the videos, heard his music, spoken to people who saw him, and he was a band Nazi who just played his music. Most people in the general public couldn't care about soul. So, maybe Alex isn't better soul wise, but maybe the public would liike him better? It probably SHOULDN'T be about that, but face it, it is.
Alex is a member of this forum. The forum creed is pretty clear about treating fellow members with respect. Your most recent comments cross the line. Please tone it down.
Memo to Alex and Jay: I think you're doing great, considering how long you've been playing. Just keep growing and learning and you'll be fine. Little Walter would have curled up in a ball if his every move as a teenager had been filmed and broadcast internationally for dissection. Have a good time at SPAH.
just to continue the argument... ;-) Buddha said "Alex is much more ego driven than Jay. I can see it in his vids, hear it in his music and read it in his words." What's wrong with ego? From the way you like to lay down the law and explain how influential you are you have plenty of it yourself, Mr Cutting Edge... But that's cool, every performer/musician has to have a lot of ego just to want to get out on stage, which is another way of saying "look at me!". Nothing wrong with that. Alex is smart and has a lot of coolness and self assurance for his age, maybe that's what you don't like? He's cocky alrite, but he backs it up.
Seems to me like people like to diss people with extremely good technique by claiming they have no feeling. Without technique feeling means nothing. Music is not just about feeling. If you want to make it that, fine, but don't diss the guys that decide to play music to make it a more technical art form of sorts.
"In the finished article, the only thing that is important is whether it moves you or not. There is nothing else that is important at all." Roger Waters
I concede, that there is more to music that just feeing, but the music that I want to listen to has to have feeling. And it's not just a lack of feeling that some of these players suffer from, it's taste also, in what they play.
Some people listen to music to be impressed, I prefer to listen for enjoyment. It's not sport.
@Buddah - "I'm not saying Jay or Alex is a poor player, they are both very good but neither one has arrived."
I agree, but does it need to be stated that neither has arrived? Doesn't it take time to develop one's own sound? Neither of them has feasibly had the time necessary for that level of development. It's like saying, "That egg isn't a platypus yet."
Is it so awful that Jay and Alex are emulating their influences openly? I would think it should be somewhat flattering to have them quoting some of your phrases. The pure fact they spent the time listening to you and learning indirectly from you is a compliment (I know you don't like them). I believe that's part of the whole cycle of creating one's own musical identity. Emulation->Assimilation->Creation.
I was responding to JJ's assertion that Alex is one of the top 2-3 players in the world. I also responded to the notion that Alex is a better player than Jay Gaunt.
They are both incredible for what they are. And they both will be the leaders of the next generation. I AM truly flattered they choose to study my music and I would help both equally as much as they want it. I would love to help them exceed my own abilities and bring the harp where it's never been before.
You're one of the few who has experienced the fact that I can play a lot more than what is out there. Remember that day on skype where I was rattling off a million notes in different keys on one harp? You were surprised and even comment that my technique is on par with Howard's. I just don't show it in my performances but I don't need to and audiences generally don't care.
On the subject of EGO. Ego is necessary. Good for a musicians' personality but bad to exhibit via their art. Ego should be an engine not a picture or a method.
I have a huge ego but my music is egoless. The best music comes when a person is grounded and open to all things, you can't be open to real music if you're just up there playing to show everybody what you have.
A musician is really no different than a painting, they may appeal to the same emotions but also to different senses.
I often think of music in terms of graphic design.
What's wrong with the "bad" example? Too much visual information. The "good" example is concise and to the point. There is a certain inherent beauty in the words and everybody understands what it is saying without question.
The same thing can be said with fewer notes. There is no problem with saying "Here I am, I'm a bad ass" but not in every song.
Do you understand?
---------- "All is bliss"
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2010 10:27 AM
Except for the ego thing,I have to totally agree with Chris. Music is ALL about evoking emotions-any kind of emotion. Otherwise,you might as well let a computer create it. I think both Jay's & Alex's technical skills are,at this point, 'way beyond their musical skills. That will change in time as they get more experience. Also,I think Alex (horrors) isn't really into blues. Nothing wrong with that. Not everybody who plays harp HAS to play blues.
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2010 11:13 AM
I don't think I was missing your point. I do realize you were writing mostly in response to JJ and not to me. I also now realize that you have a fundamental grasp of graphic design.
Perhaps you can hit Alex with your monkey paw technique at SPAH to straighten him out.
@Alex - If Buddah comes at you with the monkey paw, you can dodge it. He always comes in from the left so you can either duck it or parry it, but don't use a GM because the brittle comb will shatter and cause shrapnel damage.
both alex and jay should be flattered that they have caught the attention of some of the top harp players around today. they both must be darn good to merit so many words...
one difference i did notice in the clips, is the ability to be a supporting player when you are not playing a solo. to make the other player sound better or just don't play at all. that might take more musicianship than many have. adam has that better than del junco. jason, in general, plays balls out or not at all(not that he is not capable of comping well). some of chris's solos he has posted in the past are so laid back that he sounds like he is comping :-)
one of the two young and talented men was better at the supporting role than the other.
I don't really hear how Chris or Kenny G influenced them, their playing sounds nothing like smooth jazz to me, but I do hear a bit of Jason in there ---------- WORLD CLASS HARMONICA PLAYER
Last Edited by on Jul 19, 2010 2:14 PM
Sandy, I hear it in Jay in the vibrato and lots of the phrasing. I do similar but I use way less vibrato. The problem is is after hearing horn players, etc, you might change vibrato styles Chris has been a major supporter of "don't listen to harmonica players."
Zack- Frank Zappa was a musical genius. You may not care for his music,but just take a listen to "Black Napkins" from the album "Zoot Allures". He is playing from the heart on this tune. That whole album was more hard edge,straight ahead,in your face Zappa.
buddha, this is bad, this is better:... im not completely on board with your analogy so much... what if the type said "up in the air" instead of this is bad? puts a whole different stress level on it eh? ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
These guys are both very good. I agree that Jay is better... But on another note, for their age and the amount of time they've been playing they are both awesome and make me feel rubbish :L. ---------- "Blow as thou pleaseth"
Alex is probably a better player than 99% of the people who frequent this forum. It's pretty sad that a few of the posters here can only spout what they percieve as short-comings of a young player that I for one would give my right testicle to be able to play like. If I was Alex I would be offended by some of the so-called constructive criticism offered here rather than be encouraged by it. He shows remarkable restraint in keeping his comments down to just 3 words. ---------- Oisin
alex or anybody else is free to refute what I said.
There's nothing wrong with his playing, I think he's very good. But to consider him one or the top three in the world? That's asinine.
You're welcome to point fingers at me but they should be pointed at JJ. And then for Alex to come here and say it's ridiculous that Jay is considered a better player than he only further illustrates my point.
I am looking forward to working with both of them at SPAH.
---------- "All is bliss"
Last Edited by on Jul 20, 2010 7:51 PM
Chris, I pretty sure when Alex said "that's ridiculous" he wasn't refering to the comment that Jay is better than he is, but was in fact responding to the video that Todd posted.
JJ clearly has some sort of bias that's preventing him from looking at this objectively. Obviously Alex is a good player, but claiming that he's one of the top 2-3 players in the world is absurd. I don't think JJ realises that making claims like that, and fawning over Alex's playing, does Alex more harm than good.
Last Edited by on Jul 20, 2010 8:44 PM
An objective observer might notice that this thread began with me simply bringing to the attention of this forum an intriguing jazz/blues performance by my friend Rob Paparozzi--a guy who has made a full-time living as a harp player for 20 years, something nobody else on this forum can claim--and our mutual friend, Jay Gaunt, a rising talent. I suggested that the song was a good one for broadening blues harp players in the direction of jazz.
What's not to like? I should have known better.
An objective observer might also notice that Buddha quickly transformed the thread into a staging ground for his ability to separate the wheat (Jay) from the chaff (Alex Paclin).
That's cool. My opening post invoked my relationship with the song in question. So there's no reason why Chris--I'm sorry: Buddha--shouldn't twist the thread towards himself and his powers of next-harp-genius-certification. We all have egos.
An objective observer might notice these things. An objective observer might also notice that several wise forum members know how to tug such familiar thread dynamics back in the direction of playfulness and relative ego-less-ness. That's good. I'm glad we have such people.
The meaning of "protege" is "protect." There's nothing wrong with Chris protecting Jay: his Jay.
But I do feel bad for young players who get caught up in such dynamics and wonder if there might be another way forward, one that at least partially exempts them from such careening egos.
There is, in fact, another way. But it requires the young players in question--Alex and Jay, in this case--to turn their backs on the easy seductions of YouTube and dedicate themselves to the hard work of mastering their instrument without hope of immediate gain in cultural capital--i.e., without hope of being burdened with the "next great harmonica player" tag.
It's a long, hard road, everybody. It takes a lot of solitary work, many gigs, many late nights, quite a few heartbreaks and disillusionments, and--with luck--a bunch of aesthetic breakthroughs that the world doesn't even really notice. It's not about being petted, or stroked. That stuff is dangerous. It has nothing to do--and I mean nothing--with what it takes to becoming a musician.
It's as simple as Chris allows it to be, when he gets beyond the ego he has wisely acknowledged he possesses. It's about the harmonica and what's inside you. It's about the room you're playing to--whether it's an empty woodshed (or bedroom), or a room full of people who believe you're Jesus incarnate. It's about finding a way of getting beyond all that, and getting WITH all that.
It's definitely not about whether Chris or I or some other fallible arbiter deigns to notice you and pronounce on you. That's just publicity, and in the long run it's dangerous. It leads to Lindsay Lohan.
It's about being savvy enough to recognize the direction in which growth--your growth--actually lies, and being strong and honest enough to go that way, regardless of who thinks it's a good idea.
My video post was meant only in fun. Jay and Alex both know I think a lot of them and their playing. My post stems from a conversation that Jay, Alex and I had on Facebook in which Jay JOKED that he was scared. If you're wondering what Alex was referring to by saying, "hah, that's ridiculous=)", ask him. Alex is rooming with me at SPAH, so we've been chatting frequently. He isn't offended by any comments in this thread, but he certainly isn't worried about a competition with Jay. In hanging out with Alex, he seems to be a pretty nice kid and not arrogant at all. I think we'll all have a great time together at SPAH.
if i possessed the technical abilities of either one, and being a teenager, had THAT much time to concern myself almost entirely with just musical growth. i wouldnt give two flying fornications about what anyone thought about my playing, or if I should become the 'future' of harmonica...its all speculation at best. and it's far too easy for them to rise above that mess. if there's ego to be found, be certain that its threads like these that plant those seeds... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
Music as it's best is fun, entertaining, socializing - even enlightening, therapeutic. At it's worst it is a job, a career with goals and bills to pay.
I hope that both Alex & Jay find a real job and become virtuosos with the harp just for fun. :)
Wow - ur bein a bit harsh on the kid Chris. He probably aint even had his heart broke yet - yet he's damn near mastered the instrument technically.
Yes - he is not as original a voice as Jay -yet. (Jay is amazing in this regard for such a yung-un especially) But we ALL copied our idols for a while before finding our own voice.
Yes - he plays 'more' than the song or feel calls for, - because he can?, because he's proving himself?, because challenging challenging himself in that way ??? - I don't know - but it's a natural trap of youth and the 'more is better / faster is better ethos. I thought Jay had the same 'problem' until the more recent videos -like the one above- I've seen.
But technically - sheesh! @ 2:04 - 4:17 in Work Song he rips along Jason-esqly - drop dead in time, then gets right back on the vocal like nothing happened. It looks too easy, If Jason did the same thing he would sweat a little for it, you'd know he was working, you'd get the passion.
Just looked at his lessons on 12 Position and on OB's in cross harp blues. He has command, he has tone, and he knows his theory.
How old is he? I am hopeful the kid will mature - develope a warmer - sweeter feel and have more of something to 'say' with his music. This kid is a stone cold -technical killer though. A heartbreak or two just might warm him up.
*a hebrew recognition of accomplishment and blessing for continued strength.
You are impressive young men who have already worked very hard and accomplished much. Rankings Shmankings. You will both find audiences (or they will find you), Your musical path's will do nothing but flourish. Of this I am sure.
Here's another young (14 years old)harp player, Nic Clark with incredible talent. I like the fact that he is playing 'in the pocket' and not all over the place. I think his tone is damn good!
Harpaholic, thank you very much! Nic is outrageously good. I myself am not a 'blues' player like he is, but if I wanted to I suppose I could do pretty good as I try to fit in as much as I can. But, Chris himself helped me out and also gave me that advice of not listening to too much harmonica playing. My more recent playing (which I haven't really recorded) is must more lighter and airy. I have been working on my intonation and groove/rhythm. I am a drummer originally so I have been focusing on that for a lot of reasons (enjoyment and schooling applications) but this will help me big time I just know it. I haven't listened to harmonica too much in the past months, only jazz and rock, maybe an hour of harmonica in all. I want to lose some of the obvious influence and get the musicality in there. Thank you, though, it means a lot!
