i don't think they achieve a groove. it's like lee oskar plays a couple of groove notes (like two) and goes off somewhere else.
but the bassist doesn't even bother trying to establish anything at all. ---------- MP hibachi cook for the yakuza doctor of semiotics superhero emeritus
I have played a bit with that type of bass player.
He has all those extra strings and likes to show off. Every time he played something really off the wall and hard to anticipate or follow he looks at his friend for encouragement.
I think Lee did the best he could with a bass player that plays passages that cannot be understood without a rehearsal.
Last Edited by on Jul 15, 2010 5:17 PM
Sounds to me like they are not working together to create real music, each is just playing over the other.
I think that from the begining, the bass player is in vault. It seems that Oskar is trying to make something happen, but the bass just keeps grinding away, so Oskar just starts returning that harshness. ---------- Brandon O. Bailey Official Website of Superchucker
For unimpressive stuff, it's pretty good. :()........
I've only heard Oskar once live--in an L.A. supper club many years ago. I forgot how good he is. An incredible amount of musical knowledge he's got packed away, and it's on display here. Very solid lip-pursing tone. Rock-solid, in fact. What kind of harp is he playing? Is that a regular ol' diatonic?
I do think that the bassist keeps looking to his friend for approval, and stutter-stepping the groove when he does. But we should keep in mind what the occasion is: a highly public, informal showcase, with no rules. Part of what they're supposed to be doing is showing off. They're also supposed to be listening to each other--enough, at least, to make music that engages the listener, and flows.
I think Oskar is listening and trying to work with the bass player. The song seems to be a modified 12 bar blues. I'd need to go through it a second time, carefully, in order to hear exactly what the changes are.
I'm not unimpressed.
Last Edited by on Jul 15, 2010 7:09 PM
Two extremely talented players,but they couldn't find the groove on that one. Bill layed down a groove but then he would throw in those zingers. Lee never found the groove,even ignoring those zingers. It started to gel for a while towards the end,but then they lost it again.
Lee Oskar is as unselfish a musician as you can find.
Saw him with the Lowrider band (the real WAR) a few weeks ago. Though the the audience drank in what ever he played with eager anticipation and his rare leads where the highpoint of the night for most of the crowd -he played in strict service to the music and not his ego.
He did not have a musical partner in this regard here. Poppin bass players in the spotlight never did for me. Aside from an occasional solo , less is more and the pocket is king.
In the second video they are at least on the same page.
Last Edited by on Jul 15, 2010 11:20 PM
It's kind of like if Howard Levy used natural minor/melodic minor harps with the Flecktones instead of playing the diatonic chromatically.
I don't think it was unmusical though. There was a call and response going on towards the end and Lee seemed to be following the changes that Bill was laying down. Would have loved to hear this done with a regular diatonic though...
Just highlights the importance of a rhythm section. There is no groove. I don't feel like there is one here - just two lead instruments doing their own thing
I think it's a bit hard on Lee to say neither is listening to the other. Looks to me like Lee is trying very hard, but really struggling to lock in on anything.
at :50 Dickens changes what he is doing and Lee doesn't really catch it. I hear him just playing through what he was going to play.
The 2nd time Lee catches it but it seems to throw him a bit.
What I don't like about the whole thing is lack of consistency... Lee doesn't set up a motive and is mostly riffing. Lee can be a funky mofo but he's not tapping into it.
When Lee finally settles and starts to play a theme the bassist doesn't really adapt.
OK, Buddha, I agree with your last summary description of the dynamics. That's what I heard, too.
I think of myself as a harp player who carries a pretty strong and clear groove, although I have a habit of pushing the beat a little. But I know how to lay down a groove on the harp, and I know how to listen for the groove somebody else is laying down and connect with it.
It seems to me that Oskar is trying to do that here--trying to hear Dickens's groove and hook into it--and for some reason that I can't figure out, Dickens is either dropping the groove (maybe he's distracted by the joshing back and forth with his friend?) or else doing such fancy stuff at certain points (the "soft" places) that even if he IS maintaining the groove, he throws Oskar off. Either way, there are a handful of points in this relatively short video where the groove just crumbles for a split second, or a full second, until the harp player quickly chases after and triangulates freshly on what the bass is doing.
Given that situation, I'm not surprised that Oskar is missing Dickens's harmonic explorations! First things first. I'd be missing them, too. And I'd be more irritated than the harp player gives an impression of being. "Dude!" I'd be shouting in my head. "Give me a break!"
Yet, all that being said, I'm OK with the music, given the venue. It's just loose stuff, but still interesting, for all that.
Now, if this were an actual stage, on an actual gig: No, I would not be impressed. I'd feel like they hadn't maintained professional standards.
Last Edited by on Jul 16, 2010 2:23 PM
@groyster "the fact that this was imprompto makes it okay"
No it doesn't and that's my point, both are master musicians and should be able to perform better than they did. They are among the elite of their instruments and they are afforded no excuses for the music shown in the clip.
I agree mainly with Tuckster (and Chris). I apportion most of the blame to Lee Oskar - he's too busy with his mouth and not busy enough with his ears (or his feet, it would seem). ---------- Andrew, gentleman of leisure, noodler extraordinaire.
Last Edited by on Jul 17, 2010 10:05 AM
I think I remember that in at least one of his videos, Adam said that musicians do or should listen to music differently from the general population. I understand that, but can it be taken to extremes? If you ALWAYS analyze instead of simply listen, I think you can lose the ability to truely ENJOY music, or at least greatly reduce the amount of music you do enjoy.
Here are some clips of me just jammin with a bassist that has at least the same level of bass chops. 100% improv on the spot. There are some cool moment as well as some really ugly ones but a least we are listening and playing off each other that we made the changes when they came.
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My whole band just making up shit on the spot. You can tell we all listen to each other in an effort to make something out of nothing.
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I would love to hear clips of you guys doing the same thing.
theyre both playing solos. one doesnt care that the other one is there at all, and the other is just trying like hell to keep up, until the last few minutes of the jam. tough call...i certainly wouldnt try to blow to that bass line...kudos to LO for trying. the daps at the end would've been the best part of it for me.... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
I'm pretty sure it is the tuning of harp that Carlos Del Junco uses for 'B Thing'.
The 1b is tuned down by a whole step which means that the 1,2,3,4 blow chord is your IV dominant 7th chord in cross harp.
The 1d is tuned up by a whole step and a half so the 1,2,3,4 draw chord is your I dominant 7th chord.
The 7 draw is tuned up a half step to give the flat 3rd of the I chord/flat 7th of the IV chord without the need to overblow the 6.
It's a strange tuning, but feels nice to play because of the dominant 7th chord sound. The 1 draw has a huge range of bends available. On a C harp the 1 draw is F and the 1 blow is Bb so the notes E, Eb, D, Db, C and B are all available by bending the 1 draw.
---------- "You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
I am trying to figure out what is lousy abut this spontaneous jam. Sounds pretty cool to me. Modern jazz bassplayers popping the strings is perhaps an acquired tates. But for me, this is pretty tasty all the way around.
