J-Sin
13 posts
Jul 07, 2010
1:38 AM
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Long time no see, MBH.
Radical things are happening in my head. I just sold my custom 30W tube amp. It was way too big for my kind of music. Instead I'm going to buy a 5-10 watt amp. I thought I could use opinions about what kind of an amp to buy.
Here's the deal. I'm not primarily a blues player, so that overdriven Chicago-sound is not what I'm looking for. I play music influenced by klezmer, Turkish, Arabian, African, tango and funk - "world music", if you like. For this kind of playing:
1. Distorted blues sound with delay is too muffled, the melody doesn't shine through enough, and it's not faithful to the spirit of my music.
2. I really need the high end too. I need to hear the nuances. I use Ultimate 545 mic, love it.
3. I'm actually starting to like reverb. I like the feeling that I'm playing in a mosque or something. Delay is great for some purposes, but I like the projection of reverb when I'm playing Arabian-influenced music, for example. It reminds me of playing in the streets, which is something I love.
I guess I want the harmonica to sound more like a violin than a sax or whatever.
What would you suggest? I've been thinking HarpGear's smaller amps, Rock Bottom or HG2. I also like UK-built Laneys, that's what my theory teacher who plays jazz violin is using. I don't want to play through PA because I need a dynamic and distinguishable sound.
So, before I make my decision, what say you?
J-Sin
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Reed to the Beat!
New track online with Alabaman Eric "Red Mouth" Gebhardt & Estonian Andres Roots -- with my beatboxing and harp! http://www.myspace.com/triplejaysinister
http://www.myspace.com/ataturkband
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5F6H
231 posts
Jul 07, 2010
2:45 AM
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Well your post & your requirements seem to contradict themselves several times over...
There is no specific sound or distortion level to "Chicago Blues". High end is required for a degree of fidelity in any kind of music. An amp can't be too big for a genre of music, just for the environment that you are playing in. I would have thought a regular PA would suit you best, but then you say, "I don't want to play through PA because I need a dynamic and distinguishable sound."
Anyway back to the basic question...
Sounds like you want a reasonably smooth, scooped mid sound, rather than a raspy, crunchy sound? If so, I would steer clear of the HG2 & Rock Bottom simply because these are "single ended" amps with just one power tube & tend to have more of that crunchy character because of this (unless played when turned well down). The Laney LC 15 is a "push pull" amp and should be generally smoother, especially with a mic with moderate output, or a hotter mic & preamp tube subs. How about the HG DT 1x12 (push pull, versatile & fairly "middle of the road" sounding)? Non reverb Princeton?
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2010 2:50 AM
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J-Sin
15 posts
Jul 07, 2010
4:04 AM
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'There is no specific sound or distortion level to "Chicago Blues".'
- I know. It just seems to me that blues players tend to look for the most distortion possible. For example YouTube harp amp reviews don't help me at all, because no-one presents the cleaner sounds the amp might be able to produce - some of them beautifully I bet. Instead most have the bullet mic and amp overdriven and wail the 4-5 draw so that it sounds like a chainsaw. I have no use for that sound.
'An amp can't be too big for a genre of music, just for the environment that you are playing in.'
- For a duo or trio with fingerstyle guitar, Turkish lute or a resonator with no pickups, I'd say 30W harp beast is way too big. At least that's what other players have been telling me.
But thanks for the tips 5F6H, I'll be sure to check those amps out. I have played Laney LC15 and like that very much. Something like that would be good.
If you listen to Ataturk Band, you get an idea of what I aim for. I actually play a small Street Cube transistor on the first 4 tracks, and I think the sound is rather good for this kind of music.
http://www.myspace.com/ataturkband
If you can you create the harp sound presented e.g. in "Totafot" with a PA setup, tell me how.
EDIT: HTML.
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Reed to the Beat!
New track "Lemon Days" online with Alabaman Eric "Red Mouth" Gebhardt & Estonian Andres Roots -- with my beatboxing and harp!
http://www.myspace.com/triplejaysinister
http://www.myspace.com/ataturkband
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2010 4:05 AM
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Baker
73 posts
Jul 07, 2010
4:53 AM
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I have posted this before, but check out the Marshall AS50D Acoustic amp (http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/marshall-as50r/307). As the name suggests it is designed specifically for acoustic playing. It has an XLR in and built it digital reverb (amongst other features).
I borrowed one of these for a gig, I wanted a clean sound. I used it with a Shure SM57. It sounded great, nice warm clean sound.
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apskarp
241 posts
Jul 07, 2010
4:56 AM
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Howard Levy recommended the Marble Max. It should be pretty similar to the HG2 based on this review. Note that nowadays there are also "Super" Max in the markets that has the changes made that were recommended in that review: http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.view&friendID=51523264&blogID=218196836
Here's some discussion about that amp too:
http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/457414.htm
I sometimes play it with ultimate 545 too, and I think it sounds good for my ear. However, I think that the circuit has been designed more for the bottom end than high end. One possibility would be to use keyboard amp + some effects pedal like RP155
Here's some ideas too:
http://www.angelfire.com/music/harmonica/ampdamps.html
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5F6H
233 posts
Jul 07, 2010
5:20 AM
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@J-Sin "If you can you create the harp sound presented e.g. in "Totafot" with a PA setup, tell me how." Totafot seems a fairly middle of the road tone, nice, cleanish...should be easily attainable with a PA & lo-z mic cupped.
If you like the street cube, why change it?
Apskarp - the Marble Max has gone through a couple of circuits that I know of, again, for the reasons stated for the HG2 & Rock Bottom, I don't know if I'd recommend a SE amp for J-Sin's application.
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J-Sin
16 posts
Jul 07, 2010
5:46 AM
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"If you like the street cube, why change it?" - Like almost all transistors, it lacks the warmth and responisveness I'm looking for. I bought it for busking, but since I've been using it more than any other amp, I've grown fond of the tone. It's strange. But I still need another one.
Listen to the jazz example Harman plays on the samples of Rock Bottom.
http://harpgear.com/rockbottom.html
This sound is close to what I would just love to have when I'm playing Anatolian Riot-Blues and battery-acid-drenched street klezmer. It's cleaner than the usual blues sound, but still has potency, soul and warmth. But is this sound misleading, the amp concidered?
Mashall seems a bit odd choice for harmonica, but who knows, maybe I would like it.
Thanks again for your input.
J-Sin
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Reed to the Beat!
http://www.myspace.com/triplejaysinister
http://www.myspace.com/ataturkband
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Baker
74 posts
Jul 07, 2010
5:52 AM
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Yep. I thought that too about the Marshall, I only used it as it was all I could get my hands on at short notice. However I was really surprised at the tone.
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5F6H
234 posts
Jul 07, 2010
6:34 AM
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@J-Sin - The Harman/Rock Bottom Jazz clip still has that hot, brassy edge...it sounds cool, but it isn't a necessarily less "Chicago bluesy" tone than the other RB clips per se...as much, the difference seems to be a result of attack & phrasing by the player, it doesn't strike me as being "more like a violin than a sax or whatever", or fundamentally different to the RB "low volume blues" clips. Nor does it strike me as having much in common with the Street Cube/Ataturk clips on your Myspace page.
I don't think that it (Rock Bottom) is in any way a bad sound, or that you are being misled, just that you are reading more in to the style of playing in that clip, rather than the signature tone of the amp itself. At the end of the day, if you like it, then you like it...& that's the important thing.
I'm just having a little difficulty in consolidating what you say that you want, with the different sounds referenced in the clips.
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XHarp
395 posts
Jul 07, 2010
6:37 AM
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My $.02 worth,
Amps are great but as you are looking to stay clean and still amplify and add effects, perhaps you need to consider just using a straight PA? Most have reverb and effects built in but the clean is truly clean.
You can get a used 300 to 500 watt small venue solid state PA for about the same price as a standard 15 - 30 watt amp and likely meet all of your needs and have inputs for other players if you want to jam.
I find that the PA's sound good at all volumes unlike some amps that loose their tone or effectivenes in lower and upper ranges.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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DirtyDeck
80 posts
Jul 07, 2010
7:36 AM
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Sorry. ^^Couldn't resist that ^^ Read recently about vascectomies and their main downside ;)
Last Edited by on Jul 07, 2010 7:37 AM
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Buddha
2200 posts
Jul 07, 2010
8:19 AM
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What you want is a Roland Jazz Chorus 120 and a Beyer M160
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"All is bliss"
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XHarp
397 posts
Jul 07, 2010
10:32 AM
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Yeah the Roland amp and Beyer mic are a good way to go but you'll drop about $2,000 USD or more getting there.
Seems to me that the mic is a $700 or $800 item alone.
Might be kind of pricey for a home unit, but then again I offered him something he didn't want to do at all so.... I'll just shut up now.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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Buddha
2201 posts
Jul 07, 2010
10:41 AM
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you don't have to buy new. I used to use that set up found it all used for less than $800 total.
There is no substitute for good gear.
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"All is bliss"
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XHarp
399 posts
Jul 07, 2010
11:33 AM
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Yeah, I'm ok with the buy used logic. Makes a world of sense and agree on the good gear. As long as it fits the budget buy the very best you can afford.
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"Keep it in your mouth" - XHarp
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Dusty Dave
7 posts
Jul 07, 2010
1:33 PM
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Yow. "battery-acid-drenched street klezmer". I'm always looking for new styles of music. I think I will put on my haz-mat suit and
check it out :)
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hvyj
431 posts
Jul 07, 2010
4:42 PM
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I like to set up clean, and i like my 545 Ultimate. A Fender Princeton Reverb Reissue is a small tube amp that can stay clean and has nice, warm tone. 15 watts. But my primary amp is an SWR Baby Baby Blue acoustic bass amp. 120 watts.
Acoustic guitar amps I've tried tend to be feedback-prone. Acoustic BASS amps have interesting EQ and stay clean, but produce a nice deep dark tone when used for harp. You may need to spend time dialing in the EQ, though.
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eharp
697 posts
Jul 07, 2010
5:47 PM
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you need a digitech.
check out richard hunter's site.
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Buddha
2206 posts
Jul 07, 2010
6:17 PM
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digitech sucks compared to the real deal.
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"All is bliss"
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J-Sin
17 posts
Jul 08, 2010
12:17 AM
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@hvyj: I've been thinking about bass amps. Got any sound samples?
Bass amp is also brilliant for acoustic guitar. Hmmm...
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Reed to the Beat!
http://www.myspace.com/triplejaysinister
http://www.myspace.com/ataturkband
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hvyj
432 posts
Jul 08, 2010
5:40 AM
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My SWR has a tube preamp which is a nice feature, and it also has semi parametric EQ which provides almost total control over tone shaping. There are other bass amps which also have tube preamps and sophisticated EQ, which are nice features for harp. Another useful feature is a switch to turn off the tweeter which many bass amps (especially acoustic bass amps) have. I like the tone much better with the tweeter off.
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isaacullah
1038 posts
Jul 08, 2010
12:47 PM
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Hey, I'm going to poke in on this thread with a little bit of an OT post. For anyone who hasn't checked out J-Sin's music with the Atatürk Band, head over to his myspace and have a listen. I especially LOVE "Tango Mesopotamia"! He's a fellow anthropologist with a love affair with the harp, so I have a special place in my heart for him. It doesn't hurt that I think his music is one of the coolest things to happen to the harmonica in a long long time. Check him out, you won't be sorry!
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View my videos on YouTube!"
Last Edited by on Jul 08, 2010 7:44 PM
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Dusty Dave
8 posts
Jul 08, 2010
5:15 PM
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I checked out J-sin's myspace site. I love this music!
Here's the web-site of another anthropologist, which I think all blues fan's should check out: http://deltablues.net
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hvyj
435 posts
Jul 09, 2010
5:08 AM
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I agree! Great stuff, very original, very creative and very good harp playing.
Tonally, a bass amp sounds deeper and thicker for harp than a guitar amp. IMHO, that deep, dark, thick tone works very well for electric music. If I were attempting to play material like what is on J-sin's MySpace site, I'd probably use my Princeton Reverb Reissue for that sort of sound. FWIW.
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hvyj
439 posts
Jul 11, 2010
4:22 PM
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@J-Sin: You asked for a sound sample. Well, as luck would have it, a few minutes ago I just got an email from a bandleader telling me that recordings of 2 tunes I sat in on this Friday have been posted on his website. Here is the link:
http://www.vytas.devicegroup.com/audio.php
Hit the drop down arrow in the "Jukebox" and scroll down to 2010-Vytas and his Eclectic Outfit Live at Manhattans July 9. I am playing on "Maybe Reggae" and "Don't Look Back." The band is semi acoustic: acoustic guitar, vibes, string bass, drums, with me, a trombone player and an electric guitar player sitting in.
I did not anticipate being invited to sit in, so i only had my "electric" rig with me in the trunk of my car (the SWR bass amp and a pedal board). These recordings provide a pretty good representation of how this amp sounds.
The set up I'm playing through is a low-z 545 Ultimate through an IMT into a Carbon Copy delay into the SWR Baby Baby Blue. The CC is dialed in for a reverb-like effect. All the other gizmos on the pedal board are bypassed. So, you are hearing the actual sound of the amp, with some reverb effect from the CC and the same mic as you use.
Btw, the SWR Baby Baby Blue has been discontinued. The replacement model is called the Spellbinder Blue.
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J-Sin
19 posts
Jul 12, 2010
3:05 AM
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Thanks, hvyj!
Sounds deep and clean, like you said. I 'm going to consider bass amps too.
I'm beginning to realize that describing the perfect sound is like trying to explain how perfect wine should taste like. It's bound to fail. I'm just gonna have to experiment again and again until I find it.
Thank you.
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Reed to the Beat!
http://www.myspace.com/triplejaysinister
http://www.myspace.com/ataturkband
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barbequebob
1019 posts
Jul 12, 2010
9:01 AM
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If you want clean like a PA, I'd consider getting a keyboard amp because, like PA's, they're designed to be sonically neutral.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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