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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
what is happening to live music??
what is happening to live music??
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waltertore
709 posts
Jun 28, 2010
11:38 AM
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I got 2 calls today to play for free. Both gigs are at least a 60 mile round trip. these are bar gigs, not benefits. I have watched the pay go down from 2-500 dollars a night (1970-mid 80's) for bars that held a hundred or so people, to these offers today to play for free in the same size venues. Musicians have cut their own throats with under pricing each other to the point that today it is just about impossible for anybody to make any money playing. The cost of living has gone up a ton. Harps use to be $5 when I was making a grand a week playing these size venues. Gas was cheap, hotels under $29 a room, fender black face and tweed amps were not yet considered anything but good solid amps that were cheap.
It is very sad to have watched the vibrant live music scene just about die out. Just about any city with a population over 20,000 had a few clubs to play for the above wages I mentioned. I am not leaving my house for less than $200 dollars in my hand for a local gig. Society pays for what it values. Obviously live music just isn't valued like it once was.
I have played, and will continue to play, benefits that I am passionate about. I have done hundreds over the years. I played a big one with Neil Young, Tony Joe White, Waylon Jennings, Los Lobos, and steve earl. I played for nothing and paid my way to get there. I learned from those guys that when they do benefits, they get expenses covered and donate their playing.
That made me think of when I spent a day with Johnny Cash in Austin. We went in a music store and he wanted to buy 2 guitars. The owner said they were free and asked for a picture with him. Johnny pulled out cash and paid the sticker price. He said when he was starting out he couldn't buy a single string and now that he can buy what he wants, everybody wants to give him stuff for free. He said to use the money to help some young musicians in the position he was in. Man, the little guy gets screwed everywhere in life....
Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2010 11:44 AM
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JimInMO
75 posts
Jun 28, 2010
12:01 PM
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The few places around here that paid ok just a year ago are now only paying from the cover charge or expecting bands to play for tips. See a lot more DJ's being advertised now. Of course the lousy economy is partly to blame but there are other factors at work. The increasingly stricter DUI enforcement. I'm not knocking that, all for keeping drunks off the road, but that's just a fact. Friends in the larger city's that have passed no smoking ordinance's say that has hurt the clubs. Places with outdoor patio's or decks are increasingly popular. So are festivals. Again, not knocking no smoking, reformed long time smoker here. A couple of places around here have closed, couldn't make with or without live music. Last year we could play out every Friday and Saturday. Lucky to get a couple gigs a month now. Earlier this year we were on the short list as the house band for a swinging place. It's one of the places that recently closed. Fortunately we have always played for the enjoyment and still do but do miss the mad money to spend on more gear....
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Kingley
1293 posts
Jun 28, 2010
12:16 PM
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Yeah I agree the live music scene is in a sorry state. I live just outside a University city and it has virtually no real live music scene at all. Yet a few years ago the same place had a thriving seven nights a week live music scene.
I often get calls nowadays asking me to play gigs for nothing. In fact the phone rang tonight for one. My response was "No, I won't play for nothing". When they got irate I simply said "Would you expect a plumber to fix your toilet for free?". Suffice to say they got the message. I spent years doing gigs for charity, etc. Now my charity is me. If it don't pay then I don't play!
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Paul "Kingley" Routledge
My YouTube Page
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2010 12:16 PM
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barbequebob
984 posts
Jun 28, 2010
12:23 PM
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The whole live music scene in general has been in a bad state for years and this economy is only making it much worse and it cuts across EVERY music genre. Even the GB guys aren't working anywhere near as much as they used to.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Mojokane
48 posts
Jun 28, 2010
1:17 PM
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let's ALL agree to not leave the house for less than $200....OK?
but seriously folks...let's not forget the amount of new players hittin the streets every year. The interest in music has exploded. Every one is a harp player, too. Competition is high.
And all it takes is a few posers who think they're good enough.
Sadly, the people who are forced to listen to it, the bars are trying to keep drinking and dancing. If the bar makes money, the musicians will, too. It's really that simple.
i have been lookng at it this way.:-( Someday the scene will get better. And as the musicianship improves toooo... so will the demand for "good players".
People are not gullible when it comes to where they spend their hard earned money.
And if there is a bad harp player straining away on the stage, with some others equally as bad. They won't go back to see them again...use this down time to better yourselves...keep doing your charity work. ..make connections with these bar owners. It is possible someday they'll repay you for your efforts. They're not all cut throats.
Bring together several bands, do a multi-band show. This way you attract several fans from different bands.
And the friends of the bands will fill the place. The bar makes money off the liquor and food, and the musicians make their money off the door.
..ain't much, I know.
Keep your band small, if you can, without compromising your sound, and have fun. When people see you are having fun, they will too.
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MrVerylongusername
1108 posts
Jun 28, 2010
1:48 PM
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There once was a time when the playing field was even. Music in bars meant either a band or a DJ. DJs needed to make a serious investment on a regular basis to buy the records they played - there were fewer of them and they charged more.
Nowadays anyone can buy a cheap pa and play tracks straight from a laptop loaded with 1000s of mp3s (and we all know how easy it is to rip those off file-sharing and download sites).
If you run a bar, generally speaking, your concern is selling beer - not some altruistic devotion to live music (there are exceptions). Music will bring the punters in, but given the choice between paying a four piece band £250 or a DJ £100 which would you choose? Then consider that Karaoke is an interactive entertainment and a DJ can (potentially) control the volume far better than the average bar room rocker. IThat playing field isn't level anymore.
Whenever we get a booking we offer to play the music before, after and between set. The reason? education; we make a point of showing people that when the pay a DJ, they are paying money for old rope. Just how much work is involved in setting up an mp3 playlist afterall? You'd be amazed at how many punters (weddings and corporates are our main business) tell us they wanted a band or a DJ but couldn't afford both. When we offer them the best of both worlds they jump at the chance. It might be a bit underhand, but the odds are stacked against us now.
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waltertore
710 posts
Jun 28, 2010
7:30 PM
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With my approach to music - no covers, not even my own, no idea what is coming out, it has always been 100 times harder for me to get a gig vs. the standard approach blues /roots bands, but I was able to slide in the back door for years. With things the way they are now, getting a decent paying gig in todays market is darn near impossible. I could get real sad about this. I keep the faith because what I do, no one else does, and what I do makes me happy. that makes me feel really good inside. Also I have no competition. To think that 10's of thousands of other players out there were doing the same sort of thing I did would really overwhelm me. I feel like the right marketing person is right around the corner. I have always felt that the right person is right around the corner. Whether they are or not is not really important. Just having that feeling has kept things very hopeful throughout my life so far. People that cut their own road have historically been ignored in their lifetime. I am driven to follow mine. It isn't a concious choice. I would have no interest in doing covers and crowd pleasing antics on demand. When I get sad about the gig front, I reflect on this. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jun 28, 2010 7:38 PM
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Joe_L
411 posts
Jun 28, 2010
8:35 PM
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Maybe you could make up the lack of pay in merchandise sales?
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Greg Heumann
597 posts
Jun 28, 2010
9:13 PM
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Free? FREE? Hell, you're in fat city, Walter! I was recently told by a booking agent that in L.A. they're asking bands to PAY to play! They pay up front to get a gig - and are supposed to be able to make it up and then some from the door. Yeah, right.
It sucks. Period.
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/Greg
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nacoran
2292 posts
Jun 28, 2010
9:42 PM
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Greg, that sounds related to the old model a lot of my friends used to work on in high school. There band only got paid if they sold enough tickets, and by 'they' I mean the band. Each band member was given a stack of tickets a couple weeks before the show and they had to sell them. I think they even had to front some money.
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Nate
Facebook
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DirtyDeck
68 posts
Jun 29, 2010
12:47 AM
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Walter. I love you.
Scary stuff for a guy that intends to make his living from playing live.
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LittleJoeSamson
320 posts
Jun 29, 2010
1:14 AM
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Number one: DON'T SIGN a CONTRACT!
If the no-pay gig is not far and you have no other gig or activity....book it, then set up bare minimum:
Ask if drinks are comped, if so, then
Play the same song over and over. Mustang Sally or Mojo Workin' come to mind.
If not comped, then
Set up half what you normally, then play kiddie songs, or do only lead-ins to popular songs.
Play fast songs slow and slow songs fast.
Play out of key.
OR, set up minimal, play one song, then pack up.
The joint will be without any entertainment. If a Saturday, even better. If management complains, tell them they got what they paid for.
Use a pseudonym of a Scab band.
[ Much of this is jest/speculation ]
Worst con job was about ten years back, when my then duo partner on keys picked up what sounded like a decent gig: $1,000 for two nights and comped cheesy hotel. ...300 miles away. OK, some gas bucks to shell, but Danny said he'd cover the gas.
We get there, and it's a coverted fast food joint made into a sports bar, with cases of empty beer bottles as ambient decoratives.
The owner shows up...looking like an Elvis impersonator reject in a NASCAR jacket. I whisper to Danny, (( Oh brother...this is gonna be trouble )).
The clown says we're late. ( We're not. ) Danny says, we'll play a half-hour longer. Dippy grunts " Well, OK. ".
Neither of us drink booze while playing. At midnight, the bartender approaches and says the owner called and to pull the plug on us. What's really funny is that we finally started attracting dancers and a crowd.
So, they shut us down and said not to come back.
Danny asked if we were still comped for drinks. Bartender was friendly and said yes. Danny beamed, " I'll take a Cosmo! " Make that TWO....Ketel One....oh and Honey, might as well make two more. ". We both were extra flirty with her ( not unattractive, just midwestern plain ). We schmoozed and had her send us off with a bottle of cheap champagne, and she complied. maybe just to get rid of us. Left her a $10 ( should been a $20 ).
I think if either Danny or myself would have been less tipsy, could have made some memories with bartender friendly and a pal. But perhaps only imagination!
Collected the $500 for one night, so $200 @ plus drinks not shabby.
Next morning, Danny was hungry ( 350 lbs. ! ) so we go to a local food trough ( buffet ). Danny hogs out, and I see him parking various scraps in napkins and pockets. We finish, and Danny insists we go back to the dump we played at. This was Sunday AM.
We get there, no one's around, and Danny divests his half eaten bones and other garbage into pipes, vents, and misc. other hidden places around the place. This was in humid August. In two weeks, you reek.
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The Gloth
415 posts
Jun 29, 2010
1:47 AM
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I can't see why you should accept a non-paid gig only to fuck up the job. If you don't want to play for free, just don't.
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http://www.buddybrent.be
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DirtyDeck
71 posts
Jun 29, 2010
2:13 AM
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Do I detect the scent of fingers once burnt?
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LittleJoeSamson
322 posts
Jun 29, 2010
2:58 AM
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I don't know. You live long enough, you learn.
Recent place I played at was a local catbox and gang hangout. Had shootings ans stabbings there ( never when I was around ) . Owner was a complete Johnson. Tried to get the band frontman to see. Nope. The one saving grace is that the dump provided a fair place to practice and get tight.
We quite naturally were absorbed as the House band for this Dive.
We opened for some halfway big Blues gigs. Lorie Morgan was a hoot! Good player ( and her bassist is badass , [ I found out married...lucky guy! ] )
We opened for Bugs Henderson. Great player, and we shared some stories, Nice guy.
Then, a supposed harmonica legend was booked.
Someone I had never heard of. Oh well.
First time, he insisted on playing first.
OK.
A Bassman and a Concert bridged.
Can you say TOO F#&%ing LOUD!!!
When the Wanker stopped, I decided to play ultra-soft, and told my bandmates.
Was sweet, soft, and yet was able to step on it when required.
We had them dancing.
Six months later, the wanker was back. This time, he switched to playing later.
I knew his tricks, and so brought Carmen, my YGL-3, Mk III ten tube beast that I have tamed with 12AY7's, 5814A's, and 7247's.
125 watts of bridged POWA!
I might have well said, " Follow that, MOFO " ...
but remained silent.
Idiot played way too strong, told to shut up and STILL was too loud.
Some don't like me here. For my politics ( which I have personally left out ) or, for my irreverance.
Sorry, I won't change.
JR or LJS or J 5&10's
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DirtyDeck
72 posts
Jun 29, 2010
3:27 AM
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Joe Sampson you're a legend!
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waltertore
711 posts
Jun 29, 2010
4:49 AM
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Greg: I saw the same thing back in NYC in the late 70's. Lots of clubs started the buy a roll of tickets for $150 and sell them for whatever you like at the door. Another angle on this was the soundman needs $100 up front and then you get the rest of the door. Another was the % of the bar. We get 10% of the bar plus a cash minimum. Well I caught many a bartenders leaving the register open. they would sell 3-5 drinks and they would read up as 1. Then they would pocket the difference and we would make the % off the 1 recorded drink. Like I have said before, the music business is seeped with addicts, thieves, egomaniacs, and all known to man dysfunctions.
DirtyDeck: Thanks! I will make my living playing again once the right business person appears that can do the business straight.
JoeL: Thanks for the suggestion. I imagine I could generate some $ if I was inspired to set up a slick website. I have no knowledge in this area and no interest in learning. I am well on the short side of life and use my time doing things that are inspiring. I continue to put wishes out to the universe for the right person(s) to appear that believes in what I do and find their passion in promoting, booking, etc, my musical concept.
LittleJoeSampson: You sound like me 30 years ago :). I would fight, sing songs about the jerks that were in my face, take tv sets/house PA from bars for pay, turn owners upside down and shake their wallets out, take kegs of beer when not paid, etc. I once took an entire cash register with me out the door because the owner locked it when he saw me coming at him. I busted it open in the parking lot and took our pay out. In austin I sang about a very, very, influential music business person as he stood in the crowd. I sang about what a sleezeball he was. All the musicians knew this but feared him and acted like he was a good friend. With my music, I have no idea what is coming out of my mouth, and this was one of those times when it really came out of left field. He stormed out of the club and made a point to make my life as miserable as he could. All this kind of stuff led to lots of fights, gun play, lost gigs.........
Thankfully I have mellowed down a lot over the years. Spewing that negative juice takes a toll on ones mental and physical well being over time. I was basically just hurt inside from all the crap that was dumped on me and lashed out instead of just telling people how hurt I was, or better yet, just not dealing with those kind of people anymore. I was insanely driven to play, and dealing with these jerks was a necessity, to get the gigs. It was a coping mechanism that got me through the day, but over time it became more of a burden than an friend. Nowadays I just walk away from bad energy as soon as I can. I am by no means cured, but a lot better than I use to be. My wife tells me that I have really mellowed down. I still get that knee jerk urge, but over time, a small window of time has been developed so I can detach and move away. I am very lucky to still be alive! Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2010 5:03 AM
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barbequebob
989 posts
Jun 29, 2010
10:31 AM
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The number of venues to play verses the bands/musicians has changed dramatically since the days of disco in the late 70's. Prior to disco, there were FAR more clubs than bands but since then that's been clearly the other way around and it's now more like 500++ bands for every club and many bands wind up playing into club owners hands by undercutting each other just to get in and the unions haven't really been of much help and this is a sad reality.
I've been thru many of the same things Walter speaks about. Pay to play has been going on in the LA scene, especially in the rock scene for decades and it's not getting any better and I've seen clubs in other areas doing something similar to this and that means bands have to do TRUCKLOADS of self promotion 24/7, and that's WORK and just getting the gig is not the end at all as far as your work is concerned and some club owners expect you to do everything but dmaned near run their clubs for them.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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waltertore
714 posts
Jun 29, 2010
10:47 AM
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Bob you are right about the disco dj nail in the coffin of live music. I have mentioned this before, but maybe not here, in regards to the disco movement and decline of live music. I was fortunate enough to get to know Roy Smeck in his later years. He invited me to join his group of back up musicians after he heard me play some harp. The problem was I couldn't read a lick of music and his music is all about charts. At the same time Louisiana Red invited me to stay with him, and Red never mentioned anything about music except to play it. That was a stress free, natural move for me and I lost touch with Roy.
Anyway, the disco DJ was just coming into effect. Guys were dragging their stero systems to clubs with a box of records and charging $50-100 for the night. Clubs jumped all over it and let go of the $200-1,000 a night bands. I was telling Roy about this and he laughed. He said you should have seen what happened when the radio and record came out. He told me that wiped out about 90% of the musicians that did it for a living.
The history clearly shows that man continues to try his hardest to eliminate the live musical performance. Today it is the youtube, big screen tvs, killer surround sound systems, home theater systems that make most live concert sounds a joke. Also our parents generation was raised on live music. the younger generations, have been raised in a tv screen world of live music. Actual live music is a strange phenomenom to them. These online lessons and skype things dominate what is now considered "live" interaction. I know alot of people will jump into to defend these new ways of "connecting", but the result is less and less people are valuing live performances.
In a capitalist society, the proof is in the pudding. If live music was in demand, profits would reflect this. Instead, live music profits are shrinking as bad as musicians pay has. Obviously our society no longer places much value on a live performance. As the video technology improves, soon live music will be a dead thing, much like the blacksmith and the railroads. There will always be some kind of live music, but it will take shapes we never dreamed of in our youth. It will also not pay enough to sustain very many players. We are already seeing that. I have read people stating that the level of musicianship is now much higher. It may be technically higher, but the get down, get with the audience, interact, make some statements, is dying out real quick. Most performers today are very technical, but boring to watch/listen too IMO. I believe this is largely due their learning in a make believe world of isolation that connects via mediums like this one. It shows up real bad in their playing. Kind of like how a high school band sound hit you-technically great, but no umph. It lacks the soul note that is nutured in the street side traditional way of learing. there is no training ground like a real club, a real old time player to mentor under, a real bare bones tour, a real juke joint, broke down in podunk with no money, navigating the dangerous streets of the shady clubs, learning how to get ripped off and avoid it, wondering how you are going to pay your rent, living your music 24/7 with everything else taking a back seat, etc. this is how 99.99999% of the guys we call great started out, and ufortunately in the blues, many spent their whole lives. Walter
My recording studio is still down - awaiting my recording software update in the mail. Lots of time on my hands.............
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2010 10:59 AM
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Jim Rumbaugh
250 posts
Jun 29, 2010
10:51 AM
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I agree with what has been said..... but..
What is the age of the average "club patron"?
Are we playing the type of music they want.
When I hear Jason Ricci play at the Empy Glass in Charleston, WV, I would say the majority of people there to listen was over 50.
If we do not have a product the average consumer wants, we may have to take less for our products.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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waltertore
715 posts
Jun 29, 2010
11:05 AM
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Jim: I think the main problem is live music just isn't valued much anymore, thus the lack of venues, variety. In the 70's,80's, all kinds of clubs abounded in all small to large cities. It was still hard to get gigs even then, but if you worked a little at it, any kind of music could be booked. My music was always a tough sell, but I was always able to find clubs that would hire me. Now those same level clubs only book straight ahead, proven successful artists, and copy cats of them. What is left is to take gigs in coffee shops, small restraunts, and places like this that attract people that really don't want to interact with the music. these gigs were always filled by backround musician type players. I wonder what happened to them?? The big restored theaters are a realitively new circut that has also chopped into the local club scene. High ticket prices to see once arena rockers, and legendary old rock and roll, folk, blues, jazz, performers in posh setting. Traditionally the same clubs guys like me would play would book these people when they had an opening in their tour schedule. Could I see myself getting a gig in one of those restored theaters as a headliner????? No way today. Man is the world a changing fast! Walter
this whole thing kind of parallels the demise of once famous music scenes. I saw that happen in austin. Small clubs emerged, musicians migrated there, the music industry followed, bigger clubs arose, bigger festivals. Then the smaller guys got edged out, the smaller clubs that once thrived, closed big time, and what is left is a music capital that attracts tons of visitors a year to explore the history of it and see music. the problem is the musicians that made the scene famous, the local guys that filled the air with music 24/7 had to move away because they couldn't afford to live there anymore and what remains is a bare bones of what made it such a great place to be. Memphis, SF, NYC, Chicago, are few others that have also seen their real days and there aren't any new meccas busting out nowadays.
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2010 11:14 AM
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AV8R
25 posts
Jun 29, 2010
12:26 PM
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Musicians and club owners should take into account that a lot of their audience base is getting older (ie boomers like myself) and although they still want to listen to live music, they are not likely to sit around and drink till 9PM waiting for the first set to begin.
Speaking for myself, I would like to see the first set start around 7, that gives my wife and I time enough to eat dinner and then listen to an hour or so of live music before calling it a night. We're not interested in having to kill a couple of hours in the bar waiting for the first set.
Plus, nowadays there's so much DUI heat from the police I think people are becoming paranoid about leaving a club late and driving home.
Just my .02 on what might help keep the live music scene profitable.
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barbequebob
990 posts
Jun 29, 2010
12:40 PM
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The older crowds doesn't go out anywhere near as much as younger crowds do and this has always been true regardless of the era. With the internet, cable TV, gaming, and that's just for starters, plus adding karaoke into the mix, those things have also watered things down quite a lot.
With more frequent use of sampling and DJ's, which is what you hear the majority of hiphop artists doing and more and more bands are doing as well, that's also cutting into the live music scene as well.
For most club owners, live music starting at 7 PM, the cold, hard, reality is that unless it's a Sunday, that's generally a GIGANTIC money loser, regardless if it's convenient for the older crowd, especially 50+, and that has been the truth damned near forever and still is and the only places that do well with it at all generally tend to be those with a dinner set and a maybe a jazz trio, which generally plays WAY quiter than the vast majority of blues, rock or nearly any other music genre hands down, and then add n to the fact is that many local musicians may not be able to make that gig in time if they have a day job and then having to travel anything longer than 60-90 minutes and then they may be cutting dangerous too close to show time by the time they get there to set up, especially if it's during the weekday and even so on a Friday or even a Saturday if they have a day job.
It is clearly a lot tougher now than it has ever been plus the money hasn't gotten better, but actually worse, plus there are many more expenses that have to be paid when it comes to booking gigs and just booking the gig alone is only ONE PART of it and then there's promoting it, and these things alone are a full time job in itself.
AV8R, nice idea, but the majority of clubs would either lose money and/or die real quick and the real money maker is NOT, unfortunately, with older crowds and older crowds generally go out to see live music FAR less than younger ones do and that has been a fact from day one.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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bluzlvr
386 posts
Jun 29, 2010
12:48 PM
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I'm totally bummed.
My local blues club, Cozy's, is going dark after nearly fifteen years.
Last show Saturday, July 10th.
I'm left with the memory of many great blues shows I witnessed there including Rod Piazza, Kim Wilson, Jason Ricci - the list goes on and on...
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myspace
Last Edited by on Jun 29, 2010 12:52 PM
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barbequebob
992 posts
Jun 29, 2010
1:02 PM
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I've been around long enough to know that clubs, like any other business, generally has a life cycle of about 5 years or less and anything longer is a bonus and a blessing and unfortunately, this is the nature of the beast where clubs live and die quick.
Some of the owners may actually be good people but lousy business people and vice versa and even owning a club is not something real simple either as they have other things that can make life as an owner tough and that's not counting drunk driving laws, noise problems, etc., and just getting licensing and permits can be a royal hassle in itself and some of what's needed may surprise the crap out of you.
One area, if I hadn't seen this, I'd never believe, but one of the requirements was that you not only had to have a liquor and entertainment license, but you also had to have a milk license as well.
In NYC, not only do you have to have a liquor and entertainment license, but also a cabaret license as well as a drum license too. The last one was started in the 1800's when the loudest thing on the bandstand were the drums and nothing was amplified back then but if you don't have these licenses, you club can get shut down and it's not a joke.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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AV8R
26 posts
Jun 29, 2010
1:39 PM
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Barbeque Bob-yeah, you're probably right. Bummer.......
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harmonicanick
800 posts
Jun 29, 2010
1:54 PM
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on the other side of the pond...fee for gigs is 'usually' £150/£200 for ever how many musos
Functions are better but it is 'difficult'
I know I arrange gigs. You have to persuade the club owner you will bring added value.
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clarksdale
71 posts
Jun 29, 2010
10:34 PM
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I have been basically playing for a living for the past 7 years or so.
Definitely the Live Music scene isn't wonderful these days. BUT I think ever since the mid 90's things have gotten a lot worse.
The explosion of the internet and YouTUBE in particular i think have taken something out of the "specialness" of a live performance. Especially to those out there who have never been to a "good" live show themselves.
ALAS, i think the business hasn't changed so much as we might think. Although I guess when you can sit home for free and pop up for instance " band name, in this city, on this date" and actually get that ON DEMAND on your screen it does somehow change things a good bit i do suppose.
Remember when you used to have to order bootleg vhs concerts out of the back of magazines???
Anyway, my only advice is:
1. Don't sell yourself short.
2. Don't overestimate yourself either
There are lots of posers and just some bands out there that are not so good, but they are there weather we like it or not. Someone is going to get the gigs and it may as well be YOU.
Around here the AVERAGE pay a man for a 3-4 hour gig is usually no more than $100.00
And i REALLY hate to say it, but 100 bucks is 100 bucks.
Some nights I make $25 for playing 3 hours. And other nights (more rarely) i've made as much as $700.00 for 3 hours.
The problem is that it's easy to get spoiled buy those "better" gigs and then it hurts a lot more when you get another one of those $25 gigs. I'm here in north Mississippi as well, so take that into account. I think now minimum wage here is Up to about $8.50 an hour. And cost of living is average of $900 or so a month.
So in conclusion, do the math and figure out the equivalent of how many Burgers you'd need to flip to Equal the amount you are gonna make at your gig. Figure in your trouble, travel, and other expenses plus hours spent and then see if the gig is worth your while or not.
That's the only decent advice i can give. the music biz is a bitch sometimes and a real heartbreaker, but you really do have to get out there and work your a$$ off if you really want to bring home the bacon.
I do agree tho, what has happened to live music?
It's up to ALL of US to make sure that it STAYS around for many years to come. If WE Don't do it then who will?
peace,
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$Daddy Rich$
"The Blues is Ok!"
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The Gloth
416 posts
Jun 30, 2010
12:43 AM
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When I play live, the average pay for each musician in the band is 50 € (about 60 $), wether we play 1h30 or 3h. The best paid gig I did was with a flemish bluesman called Long Tall Danny and a pianist, we played for a private birthday party in Holland, I was paid 100 €, + very good dinner and wine. If every gig was like that one I'd be very happy (but I'm fortunate to have a regular job and not have to play music for a living).
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http://www.buddybrent.be
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Jim Rumbaugh
253 posts
Jun 30, 2010
4:03 AM
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Things change.
When I was in my 30's I played my bass in a band 1 to 3 weekends a month. Now that I am in my late 50's, that same band plays about 1 to 2 gigs a month. But our venues have changed with us and our age. It use to be a Moose club, or VFW or American Legion or local club. This last weekend it was a ballroom dancing club, before that a doctor's annual conference. The jobs pay better now, are easier and less demanding, start and end earlier, but they are also more booring and fewer of them.
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intermediate level (+) player per the Adam Gussow Scale, Started playing 2001
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HarveyHarp
52 posts
Jun 30, 2010
8:59 AM
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Here in New Orleans they play numerous games.
The going price on Bourbon Street is $20 per set per man, if they let you have more than one man, and some of the bars charge you to rent the PA (Maybe $20) Tips can be good, sometimes.
Other venues want to give you 20% of the bar, though they keep track of that amount and you are at their mercy.
Some bars that charge a cover, pay you a pretty decent flat fee, or sometimes you get a cut of the door. One desireable venue, just cut the pay and says you can put someone at the door if you wish.
A couple of big venues seem to want to have a contest, but only if you have a big following, with promises of future gigs, or advancement of your career. I don't know who they think they are fooling.
There are some legimitate good gigs, but they are reserved for the big names, not us grass root players.
The upside is that you get to hear and sometimes play with some big name people that command big fees in other places. Names like Johnny Sansone etc.
Harvey
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barbequebob
996 posts
Jun 30, 2010
1:39 PM
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Regardless of the music genre, until you have a large enough following, you basically have little money and pretty much have NO power to dictate anything at all and that's 100% the truth anywhere. Very few music venues are owned by either former musicians or true music fans and in certain areas of the country, it's even more so.
Clubs don't do the kinds of promotion that they once did and bands HAVE to do a lot of it themselves and that alone is a HUGE job, and that's anything from putting up posters, setting up little table tent cards, getting airplay and arranging interviews on radio or TV stations, etc., and this is both very time consuming and very expensive.
The thing Greg mentioned happening in LA is better known as "pay to play," and one now defunct major rock venue tried that here in Boston and that means buying up and preselling tickets to shows and you BETTER have yourself a BIG following and it is a lot of work and younger crowds are far more likely to pack a house than older crowds. The "pay to play" thing has been around LA for decades.
Many clubs in NYC give you a really crappy guarantee like maybe $100-200 per night for the whole band and then you gotta have someone with large cup going around asking for tips and that is a tough situation for the local musicians.
There are very few venues that have their own very loyal following regardless of genre and there are some places where playing for the door actually works out better financially that getting a flat guarantee, but if you gotta play for the door, if you have a bad night, you may be taking home as little as $5 for the night and what one should do is make sure you have your own person you trust to be the guy at the door getting the money because I've seen some people at the door working for a club owner pocket the money and you have very little left unless you beat their butts into the ground for the rest of the money and make sure that unless you hand them YOUR authorized guest list (and keep that list to a BARE MINIMUM) so that he shouldn't let anyone he wants in for free and I have had so many war stories about this crap with a lot of musician friends of mine over the years.
If you draw well, you have more real bargaining power, but if you draw well for a long time at any venue and suddenly you don't draw as well, believe me, you get treated with a lot less respect because for many club owners, it's all about how well you make the cash registers ring and sell the liquor (and food if they have any).
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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waltertore
717 posts
Jun 30, 2010
2:07 PM
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I had the pleasure of playing for 4 years, every saturday at the blue heron in duncan mills ca. this little bar held at most 40 people. It was in a community of hippies that tired of the SF scene in the 60's. They traveled down from the coastal hills every friday afternoon and would sleep in their vans through sunday. I would average 2-500 dollars every saturday. This club had its own following as well as the black cat lounge in austin. I played there a couple times a week for about 10 years. This club held maybe 70 people. It was on 6th street. I would get 20% of the bar and tips. I averaged 2-500 dollars there a night also. For austin that was pretty much unheard of. Paul the owner brought in great crowds everynight. A new club opened right next door and I played one saturday night. Maybe 20 people came through, but next door at the black cat lounge, the place had hundreds go through, and most all of them knew me. They had their alligence to Paul.
This phenomenon was a lot more common in the all black clubs I played. They had regulars that came out for everyone. It was a social thing as well as for the music. The all white club audience by in large seem to pick their artists very carefully and go wherever they are playing.
Then you could go play antones, and play to nobody. If you weren't a big name black blues legend or the t birds, you pretty much played to nobody. Very few clubs have their own clientle in the states. When I played europe and scandinavia over a 10 year period, the clubs almost always had their own clientle and they came out for all the shows. Our gigs were as packed as when somebody like Robert Cray (in his heyday) was there the night before.
I think the core group of people that regularly attended a certain club is becoming more and more rare. It was always a rare thing, but now it is much more so. Walter
I read another post here today where someone was complaining about all the old farts complaining about the sour gig scene. I am not complaining, just stating the facts. The young people have always been the core of live music audiences. As youngsters we went out and supported the old blues legends. We learned a ton from them as audience members and onstage with them. That was the most valuable lesson anyone ever got. Where do all the young people go now I wonder??? It seems to me a lot stay right at home on the net. If they don't carry the tourch, live music will soon be extinct as we knew it.
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jun 30, 2010 2:13 PM
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harmonicanick
801 posts
Jun 30, 2010
2:40 PM
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Where do all the young people go now I wonder???
Well Walter here in my city in the uk they do come to gigs but I work hard at it - going into the audience at half time and the end. Texting and e mailing people about gigs..play them at their game, i phone shit.
Its all about marketing your product!
The young people love live blues!! They have never seen shit kicking stuff, give it to 'em but you have to sell it!!
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waltertore
718 posts
Jun 30, 2010
2:55 PM
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that must be it harmonicanick. When I was young and seeking live music, it was the norm for the audience to seek out the bands. There always was advertising to some extent, but nothing like what I read about today. The sheer number of options for entertainment today is mind boggling compared to the 1970-
one car for a family of 8
one telephone in the entire house (with only a 5 foot cord)
7 tv channels in the NYC area
no such thing as home computers
no internet
no video games
no cell phones
I applaud you all that do such hard work to get people out. I did a ton of that for 20 years when I was doing all the bookings for my band (averaging 200 gigs a year). Personally, I am not inspired enough to do that stuff at this point in my life. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
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harmonicanick
803 posts
Jun 30, 2010
3:20 PM
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Walter I am 59 years young and going for it!!
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waltertore
719 posts
Jun 30, 2010
3:37 PM
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That is great! It is important to put ones energy where the passion is. Mine has shifted from booking live gigs to learning how to make decent sounding recordings. Heck, maybe things haven't changed much, it is just my direction has shifted? Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
2,000 of my songs
continuous streaming - 200 most current songs
my videos
Last Edited by on Jun 30, 2010 3:45 PM
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