Randy Sandoval sent me this Golden Melody with double-thick reed plates the other day. When I saw what a great and neat job he did opening the cover plates I said, "wow", and when I played it I said an even bigger WOW! It's incredibly LOUD, and can be played with much less air pressure to get a big sound. This is the first harp I've ever tried with double thick plates, and so far I really like it. If any of you remember the pre-MS Hohner Cross Harps, these had thicker reed plates, but not double-thick. The tone of Randy's harp reminds me of the old Cross Harp, but better. Randy is one of my heroes in the harmonica community for his incredible combs, not to mention that he is one of the nicest guys I know. This harp is also set up for overblows and overdraws. Thanks a million to Randy for this great harp!
And here's an early 1970's Marine Band N.O.S. on a zebrawood comb, with double thick reedplates. Unfortunately, this one isn't mine:
Those are some nice looking harps! So what about quadruple thickness reed plates? That second one looks like it's got some real heft to it. I could do curls with it to build up my biceps.
If you wanna play these, you REALLY need to develop VERY SERIOUS breath control because what you do on a standard plate thickness in terms of breath force, you're gonna have to use a MINIMUM of 50-85% LESS or those harps can get blown out in a matter of DAYS or sooner than that because the double thickness creates a wider reed swing, leaves more air for the reed to vibrate, but it places an ENORMOUS amount of stress on the reed and if played with too much breath force, that thing is toast and this is not recommended for the average player at all. I've played one that Winslow Yerxa had that was made for him by Joe Filisko and I know what the deal is on that. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
hello todd the ms hohner has gone to thinner reed plates-is that to increase the life of the reeds?could it be they want to sell more replaceable reed plates and increase the price of their harps more?
The following MS series models uses 0.90mm (standard thickness): Big River, Blues Harp, and Pro Harp. This is when they're purchased stock.
These models use the thicker plate 1.05mm stock: Meisterklasse and Cross Harp.
In Europe, you can order a set of the reed plates in either the 0.90mm or 1.05mm thickness of the corresponding models (the Meisterklasse plate set is essentially the same as the Cross Harp, but has nickel plated reed plates, but the reeds themselves are NOT coated).
In the USA, the only MS replacement reed plates available for the entire MS series is the Cross Harp plates, which again, the thickness is 1.05mm.
That's the real deal.
As far as longer life goes, the harder you play, the quicker you blow them out, and this gets magnified when playing harps with a thicker reed plate because both the amount of breath force as well as the thickness places extra stress on the reed. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Groyster, the thicknesses of the different MS series models I've listed isn't for making an assumption of Hohner selling more reed plates. The thicker plates really shouldn't be played by newbies and a lot of intermediate players because thicker plates, much like tighter reed slot tolerances keeps a greater amount of air for the reed to vibrate but someone who plays too hard all the time is gonna blow them out real fast regardless of thickness, BUT, with a thicker plate, the rate of blow out increases RAPIDLY because the thicker plate makes reeds swing much WIDER and more aggressively, and it puts MUCH MUCH MUCH more stress on the reed and if you tend to play real hard all the time, it COMPOUNDS the problem BIG TIME and out that all together, quick blow out and the average player, unfortunately, has little or no breath control to speak of (yeah, I know, many of you don't think you play too hard) and there are harp with even thicker reed plates:
1.20mm reed plate thickness: Hohner Blues Bender Hering 1923 Vintage Harp Hering Delta Blues
1.07mm reed plate thickness: Hering Blues Hering Black Blues Hering Golden Blues Bends Juke
All of the above have reed plates THICKER than anything in the Hohner MS series and NOT ONE OF THEM would I ever recommend a newbie ever play because they have NO breath control to speak of at all and these harps would get blown out by them in a matter of days or less.
If you do get any harps with thicker plates, you need to develop VERY SERIOUS breath control, and that means cutting back on it by as much as 80% and this is NOT an exaggeration.
Also the gap setting has to be lower on thicker plated instrument or it will become much more difficult to play and with a lower gap going along with the thicker plate, MUCH LESS breath force is needed. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Wow, just watched the vid of Todd playing and wow. Awesome. Guess we'll find out what kind of breath control I have in a few days since I'm playing the Deuce and a Quarter with 2.25mm reed plates as my main carry harp now. I wonder why Hohner would even put out a harp with plates that thick if it's so bad on the reeds? Seems like they'd have used the standard .9mm or at the most the 1.05mm plates so that the harps would at least last a little while. Maybe that's why they only put em' out in the Key of A and why they're on close out. They might have been having problems with reed life. Either way it's changed my mind about wooden comb harps, this things sounds great. Time to resurrect this old thread.
TN, it's a trade off. Think of the guts of a harmonica with it's covers off. The you move the reeds by blowing across them. If the gap around the reed is too wide then instead of moving the reed the air just goes through the holes. The reed plates create a fairly tight seal around the reed. The thicker the reed plate is the better the seal. The more the reed swings the louder the sound, but also the faster the reed worries.
So, actually a good, air tight harp with .9mm reed plates could have reed problems too? I do understand about bending metal over and over, pretty soon it'll work harden and crack. Same deal with a brass or PB reed, the vibration work hardens the reed until it gets work hardened so that eventually it'll crack and that's where you get your blown out reed. The thicker the plate the more the reed will need to move to allow the air past it so the faster it'll work harden. I wonder why Hohner would even risk putting out a harp with a 2.25mm reed plate, that's more then double the "thick" 1.05mm plates. It's like they put this harp out with no other reason but to fail. I guess I'll just have to play it and see if I've got a light enough touch to make it live for any length of time. If it fails then I can either replace the reed or get a thinner set of plates. Thanks for the info Nate. :)
"I wonder why Hohner would even risk putting out a harp with a 2.25mm reed plate"
Because people who are not serious about learning how to play harp and keep blowing out reeds when they jam to their favorite rock song in E want a magic bullet to fix their problem. ----------
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2010 7:20 PM
So it seems like this "magic bullet" would be thinner reed plates, not thicker. If .9mm is more or less "standard" then wouldn't a .75mm be even easier on reeds? I wonder how thin you could go and still get something playable? All the MS harps replacement plates are 1.05mm even though my Big Rivers came with the .9mm plates. I guess it's a trade off between sound quality and reed life.
Not really. It is more about learning how to work a clutch without burning it out. This is why the members of the forum have been encouraging you to buy one good harp and learn how to play it and get frustrated when you say you don't need to, ----------
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2010 7:32 PM
Ahh, ok, now were for sure on the same page. Let it out enough to grab but not so much that you'll kill the engine and not so slowly that you'll burn it up. It's getting the "feel" for the harp. Totally OT, I can hear em' at Test n' Tune at the local 1/8th mile track right now and it's killin' me. I TOTALLY love Drag Racing. Anyway, thanks for the info there Stickman. I think I kind of understand it now. ;)
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2010 7:32 PM
Frank. we all had the same learning curve as you. The first year I played I owned 3 harps and blew out not a single reed. Year 2 I learned how to bend and started jamming to jam-tracks and was blowing out a reed a month. You know what I said? I said " &^%$@ Hohner and their &^%$#$ quality control". Year three I started studying scales and tone and haven't blown out a reed yet.............(well, except for the the 5 draw on my manji, Damn!) and I know how that happened. I have been working on my 4-5 warble/headshake, It sounded so good I just had to wail on it. Not very hard but.....well......O.K. BBQBob, I let that 4-5 draw have it and it felt good damn it! Point is Frank, you are going to blow out reeds as you learn no mater how long you played guitar.
If your wife keeps burning out the clutch in the Chrysler Lebaron it might be because it is a crap car, but when she keeps blowing it out in your new Bitchin' Camero, Its time for her to learn how to drive. ----------
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2010 7:51 PM
That dang 5 draw,LOL. Same reed that went out on my Old Standby, probably from doing the 4-5 warble too, wow, what are the odds? That's mainly why I wanted to get a cheap set of harps for the first couple weeks of my playing(remember the Hot Metals) so that I could hopefully get all that out of my system by the time I started getting better harps. I really do think that I'm pretty easy on my harps, fist off because my wife and cats don't want to hear it and because I take care of my stuff be it harp, gun, truck, guitar or pocket knife, I always take care of it so it'll last. Man, I really hope this 225 will last for a while, I really love the way it plays. I wonder what a "normal" Hohner equivalent to it would be, Blues Harp maybe or Pro Harp, I like the looks of the Pro Harp. Anyway, we're getting off topic so I'll shut up now and drink my beer.
"That's mainly why I wanted to get a cheap set of harps for the first couple weeks of my playing"
No Frank. You bought cheap harps because you were unemployed and broke and would rather have a full set of crap harps than one good one because If you only had one you couldn't play along to all the songs you liked and that is why you quit before and if anybody told you different then they were gear snobs. Please don't patronize us. You made such a fuss about it, it will be a long time before we forget it. ----------
If your wife keeps burning out the clutch in the Chrysler Lebaron it might be because it is a crap car, but when she keeps blowing it out in your new Bitchin' Camero, Its time for her to learn how to drive.
Last Edited by on Oct 22, 2010 8:08 PM
If the reed plate is the same thickness all the way across as it is on the side then the plates on the Deuce is NOT 2.25mm. I put a caliper across it on the side and it's .040" which is just a hair over 1mm (1.05mm??) so these harps have standard plates, not double thick. I'll probably take it apart later today after I've had my coffee and I'm more awake and measure the plate in a few other spots just to make sure but it's looking like they're just standard thickness MS plates that have been chrome plated.
Still doing well nick. I'm more than willing to help him (and anyone else) as long as they play fair. Changing the facts aint fair either to us or himself.
STICKMAN signing in from work (yes teachers work on the weekends)
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2010 10:41 AM
Frank: Why not spend your time learning to PLAY the harmonica, instead of endlessly obsessing about the gear?
Instead of just chugging chords like most total beginners do, can you accurately play single notes? Have you learned to bend notes yet? Can you accurately hit all the half step bends on the 3 draw? These are important steps in learning to play the harp.
Make a video of your progress and enter it into BYBO2. You'll get constructive criticisism on your progress.
Or maybe you're just not that interested in learning to play well, and only interested in the gear.
I can't wait to see what happens here when Frank decides to buy an amp or mic!
Yes, I can play accurate single notes and I can do draw bends too. I can also Gliss and do warbles. I'm not a "Harp God" by any stretch but I am playing well enough to play along with songs and actually have it fit into what's being played. I just also tend to be a gear junkie too, it's just the way I am. I guess some people here can either relate to the way I am or at least understand it and some just can't and for those that can't I simply ask that they either ignore my posts or if they can't then just please don't reply. Forums are a big part of my "social" life since I don't go to bars and I don't hang out with a lot of people outside of my family. I have NO ONE locally to talk about music, let along harmonica with so forums are all I have. As for mic and amp, when that time comes I've got a mic and amp picked out that I think would be fine.
35 years of playing and nobody to play with? ----------
If your wife keeps burning out the clutch in the Chrysler Lebaron it might be because it is a crap car, but when she keeps blowing it out in your new Bitchin' Camero, Its time for her to learn how to drive.
Yep, it pretty much sucks. I played with a local band for few months back in '98, that was guitar and it was awesome. Learned a lot and had a blast. Most of what goes on around here is Bluegrass and while I really like it most of my playing revolves around Classic Rock and Metal. I just don't understand why is a crime around here to talk gear? I also don't understand why everyone has to get upset when someone doesn't want to advance to a certain level of harp playing. Not everyone wants to learn over blows or advanced stuff. I'm not faulting those that do, more power to em' but learning enough of the basics to play a little harp and have fun is fine for me. I sound like a broken record on some topics because ya'll sound like a broken record on those topics. I keep saying that I feel that I know enough to have fun and ya'll keep saying "Can you do "X", when are you going to learn "Y", you need to know how to "Z". I just feel pushed into doing things that I'm really not interested in doing right now. Who knows, maybe in the future but for now playing chords, single notes, draw bends and warbles is all I care to do. As long as I can use those skills in a way that'll work within a song context I'm happy with my level of playing. I just wish you could be too. I really hate defending myself at ever turn, heck, I'm even scared to join other harp forums now because I'm being stalked at every turn and I don't want any flack on any other forums, God knows I get more then enough here but there are a few here that are pretty cool and who I feel "know" me well enough to understand where I'm coming from and actually want to have conversations about gear and lower level playing skills so that's why I stick around. If Adam thinks I'm the Problem here on the forum then he can ban me, no hard feelings, I won't cry over it but as long as he let's me stick around I will make posts about gear and talk about lower level stuff. It's what I'm into and no one is being forced to read my posts or reply to them as far as I see it.
Frank, I mainly play Big River/Blues Harp Franken-harps. My most expensive harp was a Manji that I just blew out this week. I couldn't give a flyin' flip at a rolling doughnut about overblows and consider myself an advanced beginer and I'm happy where I am at with my skill level right now. Basically I'm just like you.
So why is it that nobody is jumping my case.
Well because I spent some time learning the social norms of this forum and conformed to them.
When I ask questions, I listen to the answers. I may not follow the advice but I do not argue with people who are much, much, much more experienced than me. I politely thank them for their help and am grateful that they took time to answer my question.
I do not ask questions with a preconceived answer and refuse to accept anything from that answer.
I do not vehmently resist advice and a week later start taking that same advice.
I keep my stories consistent.
I do not use undiagnosed OCD as an excuse for my proclivities
I do not blog endlessly about which cheep harp to buy this week when I know the opinion of the forum on cheep harps
but mainly I do not TRY to be excepted by the group
People WILL help you Frank. If you ask the right questions like "anybody know where to get good tabs for southern rock songs?" or what are some really good classic rock songs that translate well to harp?" Things like that. We are under the impression that you spend more time telling us things we already know or don't care about than actually playing and then turn around and give bad advice (or the same advice you told us you didn't want) to new players.
By the way, I'd hate to see you go. I am quite entertained by the social awkwardness of it all. ----------
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2010 4:12 PM
Frank is right. I sincerely apologize for bugging him about what he can or cannot do. I will lay off.
Chords, single notes, draw bends, and warbles is plenty of technique for a person with only 4-6 weeks experience. You can do plenty with just that!
I look forward to seeing your BYBO2 entry.
PS: I am also sorry we messed up Todd Parrott's thread. The video of his playing is a great inspiration. He is an awesome harp player and deserves much credit for his skills.
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2010 4:21 PM
I guess my main "problem" is that my Filter is broken, I say things that are on my mind without regard for the out come. Basically, I just don't give a Rat's ass about what anyone thinks about me, I say what I want to say. That tends to rub a lot of people totally the wrong way but I really don't care anymore. I'm tired of trying to play nice, especially with the likes of NOD and his crappy attitude so like it or not I say what's on my mind. If people don't like what I say, well, don't read my posts, it's really that simple and YES, I'm on about my 5th glass of homemade wine and I've got a pretty good buzz going on so take what I say in whatever way you will.
I recorded a Jason Ricci and NB show a couple years back(08-28-08) that was near Richard Sleigh's home(and mine). Richard sat in on a couple songs. During "Scratch my back", Richard played, if memory serves me correct, a low, low D with double thick reed plates, trading licks with Jason during the last half of the song. To hear it live, I don't know how the speakers in Jason's amp survived it!!! You can go to archive.org and hear it. If a master craftsman like Richard used them, maybe there is something to double thick reedplates?
Last Edited by on Oct 23, 2010 5:37 PM
I'm also sorry we've messed with Todd Parrott's Thread. He's an awesome player, I really enjoyed his YouTube post. I can only hope to be as good as he is one day.
I've never played a harp with double thick reed plates. But, I used to play MS harps and I have tried the Hohner .90mm reed plates and the 1.05 mm reed plates. To be honest, I could detect absolutely no difference in sound or response between them. But, YMMV.
I have no experience with double reed plates, though
There's less of a difference between 0.90mm and 1.05mm, but with 1.20mm, there definitely is, and when I tried that one out was back in 1994, when that was compared to how really crappy most Hohners out of the box were playing at the time, or even compared to pretty much the only other alternative to Hohner back then was either a Lee Oskar or a Huang (Seydel at the time had barely gotten returned back to the Seydel family after being owned since WWII by communist East Germany, and they really ruined that company for decades until it was bought about about 6 years ago and had people investing real money to improve their products, and Suzuki at the time was essentialyly barely a blip in the screen by comparison).
I've actually played a true double thick plate custom that was made by Joe Filisko for Windslow Yerxa and I could see and feel the difference. In Howard Levy's case, because he plays with a FAR lighter breath force than even many pros do, there's more difference to his playing IMO with a harp using a tighter slit tolerance than with a double thick reed plate.
On a higher pitched harp, a thicker reed plate has few real advantages, but for harps from the key of A and lower, there is a difference in terms of response. Also, there is gonna be somewhat of a lag in the response.
The one chromatic model that's on the market that has a double thick reed plate, but in the first two octaves, is the Hohner Super 64X, which its first note starts at C one octave below middle C, and so putting a double thick plate only on those two octaves and the other two with the standard thickness makes sense.
I've played both the first issued versions of those, which I wasn't that impressed with because they were using berrylium copper alloy reeds, which was too bright sounding for my taste, but the later ones using brass were much nicer sounding. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Oct 24, 2010 11:57 AM
Hey Frank, 'it's really that simple and YES, I'm on about my 5th glass of homemade wine and I've got a pretty good buzz going on so take what I say in whatever way you will' 'Dont drink and post'!! That's what you said to ME in a previous post...self-righteous or what???
The "don't drink and post" deal is a joke that we use when someone posts something that we either don't understand or that doesn't make sense. Nothing "Self Righteous" about it. It's just all in good fun but I'm starting to understand that there's a few that just take everything too seriously and that I can't joke with em' or they'll take it the wrong way.
