Oisin
572 posts
Jun 16, 2010
5:35 AM
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-I've recently started to go to a jam which is held in a Rehersal studio which has been located under a railway arch.
The first few times I went I used my Fender Champ600 which sounded great but towards the end of the night was getting drowned out by some of the other guitar amps.There's not really enough room to mic it up but as I say for most of the night it sounded great with enough volume.
So last time I took my 50Watt Vox amp along thinking this would solve the problem. However as soon as I started playing it just sounded wrong.
Firstly it didn't sound like 50watts even when turned up full. Secondly, what sounded great in my garage sounded rubbish in this setting and thirdly when I compared it too the little Champ(rated at 5 watts) the champ to my ears sounded louder.
I'm now about to ebay the Vox but I wanted to get some opinions from you guys before I do as to why this happened and if it was just the location that made it sound so crap.
It's a Vox ADVT 50Watt 212 modelling amp. Valve preamp and SS poweramp. I was using it on Bassman settings. I changed the settings a few times to different amps but this just changed the tone and not the volume.
Thanks for any help
PS....I can't afford a HarpGear so please don't tell me to buy one!!!
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Oisin
Last Edited by on Jun 16, 2010 5:43 AM
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Oisin
573 posts
Jun 16, 2010
5:55 AM
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I don't think it was that Diggs as it sounded crap all night and none of the other amps or PA were affected by anything.
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Oisin
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5F6H
192 posts
Jun 16, 2010
5:56 AM
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"Firstly it didn't sound like 50watts even when turned up full."
Oisin, are you saying that you can turn it fully up, with a harp & mic plugged in, without feedback & the amp just doesn't get loud? Or, that when you dial in as much volume before feedback as you can, it's just not as loud as the Champ?
An emulated "tweed bassman" style setting will usually be quite gainy, preamp-wise, is there a marked difference if you try the BF fender style settings? Keep any master set high and preamp vol/gain set on the lower side.
House current can fluctuate but the effect is rarely as extreme as to vastly reduce an amp's output, they usually just go a bit "splatty".
Last Edited by on Jun 16, 2010 6:51 AM
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Oisin
574 posts
Jun 16, 2010
6:03 AM
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5F6H...The amp has a power soak which allows you to play from 0.5 watts to 50watts and I had it all the way up to 50. I did get a lot of feedback so swapped the mic over to a little shaker dynamic with volume control but I was able to turn the mike nearly up full. I did turn the gain down to about 12 o'clock, the master volume was fully cranked and the amp volume about 3/4 full.
I'll be honest, this was the first time I've ever played the amp at full voulume as I usually use it in my garage so I just use the power soak to give me about 5 watts so this was a new experience for me and I was dissappointed with the sound as it sounded great in the garage. It honestly just didn't sound like a 50watt amp.
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Oisin
Last Edited by on Jun 16, 2010 6:04 AM
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Nastyolddog
933 posts
Jun 16, 2010
6:05 AM
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Jam mentality you turn your amp up the Guitarist turns his amp up,
you turn your amp up to get over the guitarist he turns his amp up to get over you,you get to your max,
the guitarist maxes you out of the mix,
at the end of the night all you got is a Harmonica player doing Marsel Marso impersonations and a loud screaming Guitar Jimi Hendrex Stev Ray Varn come Clapton mess:(
Bloody Guitarists:)
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Ev630
627 posts
Jun 16, 2010
6:08 AM
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Yep.
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Oisin
575 posts
Jun 16, 2010
6:10 AM
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You're right there Nasty and alcohol had a huge part to play too as this jam went on till 03:00 in the morning. Maybe it was affecting my hearing too!!
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Oisin
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Diggsblues
353 posts
Jun 16, 2010
6:35 AM
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Did you check to make sure all the tubes were tight?
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5F6H
193 posts
Jun 16, 2010
6:41 AM
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"It honestly just didn't sound like a 50watt amp." Well one 50W amp, even when working perfectly, can sound vastly different to another.
There's also the age old dilemma of getting a sound that might be a reasonable volume at home/in the garage, then getting a usable sound for "on stage", most players can find that when they listen to an amp in isolation & get it to sound good on its own, they still might have to tweak it some to hang with drums, bass & guitar.
When you get the time & neighbours allow, I'd just experiment with getting as much volume (loudness) out of the amp as possible...even if the resulting sound is perhaps harsher than your preference, a 50W amp is really tool for getting you accross in a live situation...I can't play one at home for any length of time before it becomes a chore & hurts my ears...when you're trying to be heard with a band though it's a different story.
With any amp, it can take a few attemps in a live situation to get the best out of it. There's undoubtedy "a sound" in there, you just need to persevere a bit.
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Shredder
184 posts
Jun 16, 2010
7:21 AM
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Oisin
I had this issue until I learned about Hi/LO impedance cables and mics. I had a 1/4 guitar cable cut on one end and had an XLR put on in its place. My 50 watt amp only had 1/2 the volume after that. I had a lo imp. Mic and a hi imp. cable. I got a imp matching transformer"Audix" and the problem went away.
Just thought I would throw the idea out there.
Mike
Last Edited by on Jun 16, 2010 7:21 AM
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kudzurunner
1590 posts
Jun 16, 2010
7:52 AM
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What kind of speaker does the amp have, and in particular, how heavy is the magnet? My hunch is that the speaker has a very heavy SRO-type magnet. And every shred of experience I've accumulated over the years teaches me that amps with heavy-magnet speakers make lousy harp amps.
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Ev630
631 posts
Jun 16, 2010
7:58 AM
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Except the 1950's tweed Pros with the big old square magnet on the back. That's the amp that Wilson recorded with on "Pinetops Boogie Woogie" and "Ludella".
:')
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Oisin
576 posts
Jun 16, 2010
8:32 AM
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Ok thanks for all the great suggestions and tips.
Firstly Adam...the speakers are custom Celestion 70/80 12 inch 8 ohm speakers and have quite big magnets although not huge.
Shredder....I use just a normal guitar cable with a 1/4" jack on each end. I believe these are good for a Hi-z mike to amp.Never had a problem before.
The thing that so surprised me was just how shitty it sounded compared to when I have played it at home. It has a beautiful tone when I play it at low power but when I cranked it that sound just wasn't there.
I think 5F6H might be one the button though as it probably needs tweaking to get it playing at it's best.
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Oisin
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barbequebob
931 posts
Jun 16, 2010
12:58 PM
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Oisin, this is a very typical thing happening because what sounds good in your house is often times going to sound completely different on a live gig or recording studio and the things you've apparently not taken into account (and this is very common) are things like the size of the room, the shape of the room, the ceiling height, the flooring of the room, and the room's acoustics and everything I'm telling you are hard truths.
Most of the so called harp mods with the different tube configurations I've found over the years sounds great at home, but unfortunately on a live gig, often does't cut the mustard as well as you think.
A friend of mine recently bought a Clark Piedmont amp, which is essentially a 4-10 Bassman clone type of amp and had it retubed for a harp mod, but in a room with decent acoustics and his band not playing loud at all, the amp just didn't cut thru the mix very well and he should have left the tube configurtation where it was, and the harp mod sounded fine at home but crap on the gig.
Obviously, I'm not the least bit surprised at what you've found at all and this comes from lots of experience.
Unless you have either a Harp King amp or a Kinder AFB box, trying to compete with a guitar player in the volume game is a very dumb, losing battle and what you're gonna need to do is either get them to turn it down (and electric bass players are often even worse for that) either by request, threat, or turn their amp down on them, or just mic the amp thru the PA and unless you have a sound guy who really understands harp and has a clue n what to do (95% of them don't), make sure the amp is not going thru the monitors or it's feedback hell.
With many amps, there's always gonna be a point where the distortion reaches compression and then the crunch makes everything muddled and everything you play completely loses definition and the average player NEVER realizes this at all.
Every amp is different, every one of them has a different circuitry and the settings for everything from the tone to the volume controls, the deal is often what works well with one amp is often times NOT going to work with another and too many players tend to make automatic assumptions that it does work and that is COMPLETELY untrue as way too many players tend to think one size fits all and I've found too often how UNTRUE that is.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Jun 16, 2010 12:59 PM
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Oisin
577 posts
Jun 16, 2010
10:08 PM
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Bob...thanks for that considered reply. I was hoping someone would talk about the space where you play because this place is a bit strange in that the room is a basically an elongated semi-circle with very thick walls, and I thought that this might have had an effect on sound.
When I got home last night I took 5F6Hs advice and gave the Vox a crank for a few minutes to see what it sounded like and it was LOUD!!! It also sounded just like I hoped it would so I'm thinking it has more to do with the room shape than the actual amp.
I also spoke to a guitarist I know who plays at this jam and he told me two things that I never noticed before. One is that he only plays with a 30Watt amp in this place and he says that is plenty loud enough for him and secondly he told me to check out how the host of the jam places the PA speakers. He said that normally the PA will face towards the audience but in this place they are placed low down and pointed towards the wall, slight facing upwards. This apparently gives a better sound in this small space.
I'm gonna try this palce again and have a go at differrnt positioning of the amp and see what happens.
I know from last night that the amp isn't broken and can sound good at loud volume so I just got to find the right place for it to sit.
Thanks for all ther great advice.
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Oisin
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