harpdude61
192 posts
Jun 05, 2010
10:24 AM
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I just ordered the Educator 10 because I have never tried a chromatic. Hope I like it. Tips?
I also ordered a Suzuki Firebreath in C. As I have posted, I want to try something besides my Golden Melodys since I am a overbender. THe majority of you recommended that I order a custom harp and I may soon. I just hate waiting months. Anyway, I got the Firbreath from MF for $64.21. Not bad considering it was $99.00 recently.
I will post a video when I open the Firebreath just to see how well it plays ODs and OBs out of the box.
I also want to thank all of you who have offered equipment advice in the last month or so. I have a new mic, amp, and delay that I am very pleased with. THis forum is great. I have learned a lot about the harmonica and it's players. I just hope I've added a little something as well.
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jim
101 posts
Jun 05, 2010
11:01 AM
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I've got one custom special 20 with serious overblow setup for you. Ready, with no waiting.
My skype is palmhero if you need more info on that instrument.
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jbone
338 posts
Jun 05, 2010
11:16 AM
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the first chromatic i actually learned anything on was a chrometta 8, and i soon got a chrometta 12. very easy to play, big holes, looked like a toy but man they sounded really good. no experience with a firebreath. i do have a very sweet suzuki pure harp, all rosewood.
i currently use a couple of hering chromatics but am curious to try a suzuki model.
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harpdude61
193 posts
Jun 05, 2010
12:29 PM
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Jim,
I didn't care much for the SP20s I have tried. When I do order custom it will be a GM.
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jim
103 posts
Jun 05, 2010
12:43 PM
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well.. I have offered. With most Hohners, difference disappears when they are customized. This is a very serious instrument for a reasonable price.
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harpwrench
289 posts
Jun 05, 2010
12:59 PM
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The last batch of GM/SP20/MB harps I ordered seem to have improved in quality. Several OB's out of the box w/no squeals and no stickiness, no squealing 2 draw bends on all the A's and Bb's I got. The jury is still out, and perhaps it's just wishful thinking, but I think Hohner has possibly stepped it up a little.
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NiteCrawler .
61 posts
Jun 05, 2010
1:09 PM
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Jim,I,ve been wanting to try a Sp 20 for overblows,I,ve never had a harp set up for that but I would be interested.BTW what key, and what # are you looking for it,Thanks
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isaacullah
991 posts
Jun 05, 2010
1:35 PM
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Harpdude, see the recent thread "Which Chromatic" for my three part YouTube review of the Educator 10. Or else, click the link my signature line below, and find the videos on my YouTube Channel.
Cheers,
Isaac
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
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jim
105 posts
Jun 05, 2010
1:43 PM
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it's a C. It used to be my personal instrument, meaning I tweaked it a lot.
All overblows are absolutely playable, that's out of the question.
Moreover, you can bend them up:
hole 1 - up to the temperate pitch. There's no need for extra oveblow bending here anyway as it would hinder regular playing.
hole 4 - overblow bendable to 5blow
hole 5 - bendable to 6draw halfstep bend
hole 6 - bendable +3 semitones (higher than 7blow)
overdraws are just there, no strings attached. 10 Overdraw possible.
Some images:
basically you can see the general condition, mint.
back side
blow reedplate.
draw reedplate. You can see scooping marks on 7,9,10 draw...
Offering this professional setup for $120 only.
Last Edited by on Jun 05, 2010 1:43 PM
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harpdude61
194 posts
Jun 05, 2010
2:25 PM
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Thanks isaacullah
I'm glad I ordered the Educator after watching your video. I'm gonna build one of your foot drums too.
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NiteCrawler .
62 posts
Jun 05, 2010
3:17 PM
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Thanks Jim ,How can I get in touch with you offlist and I,ll either e-mail you or call if thats possible.Thanks,RJ.
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isaacullah
992 posts
Jun 05, 2010
3:46 PM
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you are quite welcome! Yeah, that foot drum is awesome. I'm building an amplified "porchboard" right now (I mean literally right now! I just am taking a quick break to peep in on the forum!). My hope is to get BOTH feet a stompin'! :)
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The magnificent YouTube channel of the internet user known as "isaacullah"
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Buddha
1942 posts
Jun 05, 2010
4:41 PM
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I wouldn't get a sp20 for OB style playing.
This has nothing to do with any customizer's work but rather the general design of the instrument. Of all of the most popular hohner models the sp20 is the worst for articulate playing.
The marine bands and GMs make the best harps period.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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ZackPomerleau
896 posts
Jun 05, 2010
7:13 PM
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Chris, quick question, would you say the Marine Band rivals the Golden Melody or is equal/
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Buddha
1944 posts
Jun 05, 2010
7:19 PM
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it depends on how you build them but they can be equal in response. I can't say the same for sp20s or any other brand.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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jim
106 posts
Jun 05, 2010
11:45 PM
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Well..
The blow rivets being further in the comb certainly matters, but not for the technical possibilities of the instrument itself. If it can bend an OB three semitones up, you will be able to do that.
I think one shouldn't be so categoric about sp20. They are much more comfortable to play than GM, and have less problems with the comb over time. Talking about stock comb on gm.
My opinion is that you Buddah is again idealistic here (which is not bad at all) - building a perfect instrument. The problem is that what works perfect for you may not work perfect for someone else.
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www.truechromatic.com
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jim
107 posts
Jun 05, 2010
11:48 PM
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My email is palmheroes [at] gmail.com or the one that is in my profile. Skype is palmhero. I assume calling me via phone would be quite expensive, so better use skype.
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www.truechromatic.com
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jim
108 posts
Jun 05, 2010
11:50 PM
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My email is palmheroes [at] gmail com
Skype is palmhero
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jim
110 posts
Jun 06, 2010
3:09 PM
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NiteCrawler,
I've replied to your email twice , but the first time (from email app) - I've got a delivery failure notice. Second time was via gmail website.
Let me know if my reply has arrived
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Buddha
1955 posts
Jun 06, 2010
3:20 PM
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@jim
name one major ob player that uses sp20s.
All I can tell you, I'm an expert at the technique and I'm an expert at building harps. The sp20 simply isn't as good for OBing. Bending up a note three semi tones is nothing as far as the technique goes.
BTW- if you can't bend the the OB 6+ semi tones then either your technique or your building skills are lacking. Probably both. Think about it.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Todd Parrott
72 posts
Jun 06, 2010
9:10 PM
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Chris, you know, come to think of it, I don't know any major overblowers who use Special 20's. As for bending up the overblows, especially the 6 OB, I don't have any problems bending the 6 OB up 4 semi tones, to what would be the same note as the 8 draw, and can also do the same with 4, 5, etc. I know this is nothing new and that you, Jason, TJ Klay, etc. can all do the same, so I would agree that if you're unable to bend up semi tones it could very well be a matter of technique. I think sometimes having a good OB harp that's been set up makes it way easier too. I've historically had bad luck with Special 20's in general, though I do like them, but have never considered them ideal OB harps. Randy Sandoval set up one for me just a little bit at SPAH (he didn't actually customize it) and placed it on a regular (non-recessed) comb. It's actually been a good little harp. So, do you think the recessed comb makes them less overblow friendly, or is it because the quality of them are perhaps inferior to the Marine Bands and Golden Melodies?
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jim
114 posts
Jun 06, 2010
11:53 PM
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Chris,
Of course it's the comb that makes a difference. For same reason, I prefer 1847classic/silver making overblow customs (not silver+). +6 up is possible but it is surely not musical. Can you overblow with tongue-blocking)?
To a diehard sp20 player all that talk would mean nothing.
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www.truechromatic.com
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Buddha
1960 posts
Jun 07, 2010
7:08 AM
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"Can you overblow with tongue-blocking)?"
I can do everything.
"+6 up is possible but it is surely not musical."
Now you're making excuses.... it's a sound and sound is music. As I said before, if you can't do that then either your technique or your harp building skills are lacking. I'd bet it's both.
If you're an OB advocate and you build harps then why are you suggesting the sp20 for somebody who wants an OB harp? Sure a person can OB with ANY harp but there are some that are better than others. Seydels aren't great either for OB.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Todd Parrott
74 posts
Jun 07, 2010
7:21 AM
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Jim, you think bending the 6 overblow up is not musical???
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Pluto
72 posts
Jun 07, 2010
7:31 AM
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Chris,
How do rate Big Rivers for overblow modification?
Pluto
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Buddha
1963 posts
Jun 07, 2010
7:43 AM
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not great.
Keep in mind that any harp can be made to OB but some work out better than others and depending what you do with the technique it may or may not matter.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Pluto
73 posts
Jun 07, 2010
7:58 AM
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Chris,
And with me it may not matter. Having access to 4-6 OB would benefit me. I'm not looking for a completely chromatic instrument.
Besides I have 30+ Big Rivers still in the box.
Thanks,
Pluto
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jim
119 posts
Jun 07, 2010
10:12 AM
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1) I think overblows are not musical at all in the first place. The one and only OB player I can enjoy listening to is Alex Paclin.
2) The guy wanted an overblow-ready harp without waiting. And I have one. And I offered it. Now it's bought by a person who plays ONLY sp20's.
To Chris:
3) Do you offer any warranty on your instrument?
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www.truechromatic.com
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Buddha
1966 posts
Jun 07, 2010
10:15 AM
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"Do you offer any warranty on your instrument?"
Yes.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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jim
120 posts
Jun 07, 2010
10:18 AM
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So what happens when your customer opens the instrument, cleans it, assembles back, and the super-overblows are gone?
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Todd Parrott
75 posts
Jun 07, 2010
10:43 AM
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Jim, if Alex is the only overblower you can enjoy (and Alex is great btw), you should really listen to more of Buddha's playing.
Last Edited by on Jun 07, 2010 10:43 AM
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jim
122 posts
Jun 07, 2010
11:03 AM
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Most modern players who went into overblows got poisoned by them so to say. They play overblows. Many forget about music...
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toddlgreene
1419 posts
Jun 07, 2010
11:45 AM
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Buddha plays some beautiful 'poison' then...doesn't sound as if anything was 'forgotten' musically, except the limitations of not having some of those OB/OD notes on his palette.
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Todd L Greene, Co-Founder
Last Edited by on Jun 07, 2010 11:47 AM
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earlounge
92 posts
Jun 07, 2010
11:57 AM
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sweet! Buddha make a vid playing "Every Rose Has it's Thorn" or did Todd mean Bell Biv Devoe? :)
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Todd Parrott
77 posts
Jun 07, 2010
1:08 PM
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jim,
Poisoned by overblows? I don't know.... I play overblows in my music, but I am a musician, not just a harp player. I also play bass and keyboards. Chris is a GREAT musician also. Just when you think you've got him figured out, BAM! He does something new. I was talking to him about Alex, whom we both agree is a great player, but Chris nailed the same licks and vibratos over the phone. Love him or hate him, Chris is a genius harp player and does make "music" with overblows if you ask me. I have a huge amount of respect for his playing. It almost seems as if you were saying that overblows are not musical, but they are only when Alex plays them. I may be misinterpreting your statement a little, and if so I apologize. I guess I'm just trying to understand where you're coming from, because to me, overblows and overdraws are no different than bends. Bends can sound just as bad as overblows if not played well, or if they're played out of tune. To me, Alex sounds more like Jason than anyone else, so does this mean you don't like Jason's sound, and only Alex? It's certainly OK if you feel that way - everyone has their favorite players and tastes. As an overblower I am in no way offended personally. Anyway, I was just wondering...
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jim
123 posts
Jun 07, 2010
1:10 PM
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Jason's sound is't even anywhere close to Alex.
To clarify what I mean: Alex is the only player that can get all notes consistent in sound. WHen Jason and Levy play, I can count all the overblows used. When Alex plays, I can't.
Last Edited by on Jun 07, 2010 1:11 PM
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ZackPomerleau
898 posts
Jun 07, 2010
2:36 PM
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Jim, listen to some Michalek, then count the overblows. I'd like to see if Chris could correct you. Sorry, Alex is nowhere near the talent of Howard Levy, he is most likely the greatest harmonica player living.
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Buddha
1968 posts
Jun 07, 2010
2:47 PM
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Alex, is a good player for a young guy but he is no where near the level of any of the major OB style players. Alex doesn't have a defined sound of his own, I expect this will change as he matures.
I find it to be extremely short sighted to use Alex as a measuring stick for what a good OB style player should be especially when he is at the stage where he is still copying players like Jason, Howard, Carlos and myself.
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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Todd Parrott
78 posts
Jun 07, 2010
5:06 PM
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Zack & Buddha:
Well said. As for Alex, I found him to be a super nice and polite fellow who is well on his way to becoming one of the greatest harp players. When I asked Alex who his favorite players were, Jason of course was his favorite, and when I asked him about some of the licks he was using, he said they were licks he learned from listening to Jason. Nothing wrong with that at all - we all have our influences. He also liked your playing a lot, Chris.
As for measuring sticks, I would have to agree on Howard Levy, Carlos Del Junco, Sandy Weltman, Chris Michalek, etc., as well as Jason for finding ways to incorporate overblow and overdraw riffs into funky and bluesy tunes. Chris, to me, you are in a world of your own as far as creativity - you impress me man. Even Jason lists you as one of his favorite players. I found Alex to have very good control of his overblows and vibratos - he's seems to be an overall a great guy in general. He mentioned that he didn't use the 8 overdraw or the 10 overdraw much, which I was surprised to hear (he can play them, but chooses not to use them much). These are 2 of my favorite overdraws to use and bend up. But I guess it's all a matter of style and preference.
I think what is more important than picking out overblows is whether or not the player plays them in tune (whether they are sharp or flat). This requires you to use your ears and to practice. Chris mentioned something about this in another post.
Bottom line is that overblows and overdraws can be just as musical as bend notes in my opinion. It all depends on the player. But I try to focus on making music more than listening to other harmonica players. I enjoy picking up licks form Hammond B-3 players, guitar players, and horns. I certainly don't lose any sleep if harmonica players don't like what I play. I play what I like, and I try to play notes that are pleasing to a non-harmonica playing audience. To me, music is about expressing what's on the inside of your soul through your instrument, whether it's a harmonica, piano, guitar, etc.
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Joch230
172 posts
Jun 07, 2010
5:10 PM
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Jim. I don't understand where you are going with all this. I was fine with you offering up a harp you customized for yourself to OB. Affordable price and you found a buyer. But you are contradicting yourself when you say you made yourself an OB harp, and also make OB harps from Seydel harps...but then you say OB's aren't musical. Why would you make something that you don't find musical/pleasant? And the 8blow to a 6OB bent up is also the lick that Alex quotes in his video that he got from Jason. Even Alex emulates the other OB players...not getting your logic.
-John
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jim
125 posts
Jun 07, 2010
11:36 PM
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I can make overblow setup. But I never use overblows in playing because they don't sound good except for the ONLY player I mentioned.
But I do that setup for myself. Because it is very responsive an an instrument. And just because why not. I practice them because OBs improve intonation and general control of the instrument.
It's not me flaming here. Read the thread and you'll see who is.
What I'm really getting at is that Richter tuning is a dead-end in harmonica evolution.
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www.truechromatic.com
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Buddha
1971 posts
Jun 08, 2010
12:21 AM
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"I practice them because OBs improve intonation and general control of the instrument."
Um..please explain that. Thanks
"What I'm really getting at is that Richter tuning is a dead-end in harmonica evolution."
Um yeah. please explain that too. thanks
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"Musicians are the architects of heaven"
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jim
126 posts
Jun 08, 2010
1:01 AM
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well they improve the control over regular notes and bends, sustain, and more. That's what I mean.
The Richter tuning was developed quite a while ago, and was not meant to be played chromatically. What we have today called "overblowing" is an attempt to play it "no matter what". Overblows can't be set up in mass production, and they are different tone-wise, technique-wise, and even musical thinking-wise. Not to sound rough, but just to sum it all up in one word - they are quite alien.
There are much better tunings out there that don't need overblows. Diminished, Augmented, True Harmonic - you name them... They are just better. In all possible ways - in positions, in comfort, ease of playing, and chordal/interval possibilities.
Besides, some players deliberately play tunes in an uncomfortable position and key when they can simply take a harmonic minor for instance, and play the same stuff easier. And it would sound better too in some way, because they'd be focusing on music rather than on technique.
But, Richter tuning continues to live on despite anything. Well because other tunings are not produced serially, and because he, he, and she plays Richter, and lots of other things.
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Todd Parrott
83 posts
Jun 08, 2010
1:10 AM
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jim,
I play overblows for expression, kind of like I do with bends, but I do enjoy alternate tunings from time to time to give a song what it needs. Some songs sound better with the country tuning for example, than they do trying to overblow the 5 blow note. To me it just depends on the song as to what I will use.
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jim
127 posts
Jun 08, 2010
1:34 AM
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Todd,
I know that. I've seen your videos. Cool stuff.
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Todd Parrott
84 posts
Jun 08, 2010
1:50 AM
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Thanks man. I use some harmonic minors sometimes too, as well as other tunings - just depends.
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earlounge
94 posts
Jun 08, 2010
9:15 AM
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The diatonic sounds a specific way that I like. It has limitations that cause you to play a specific way. The bends (and OB) give it a unique timbre. Changing the tuning slightly like a country tuning or Todd’s 7 hole mod is cool, but it is still based on the style of playing around these limitations. If you want the instrument to be chromatic then why wouldn't you drop the diatonic and play a chromatic? Like Todd said it is about expression.
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jim
132 posts
Jun 08, 2010
9:22 AM
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I am learning chromatic now.
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Kingley
1241 posts
Jun 08, 2010
9:59 AM
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"The Richter tuning was developed quite a while ago, and was not meant to be played chromatically"
It wasn't meant to be played in crossed position either and have bent notes as in blues, but it works perfectly for that.
"I can make overblow setup. But I never use overblows in playing because they don't sound good except for the ONLY player I mentioned."
Mmmm I can only guess that you haven't listened to much stuff then.
Dennis Greunling for example uses overblows fairly frequently and most of the time it's hard to tell where he's actually using them and he sounds good. Todd Parrot uses them a lot and sounds very good too, as do Chris Michalek, Jason Ricci, RJ Harman, Jay Gaunt and of course Howard Levy.
I personally don't use them as I prefer to play more traditional styles of blues but I still practice them in case I ever need them.
Last Edited by on Jun 08, 2010 10:02 AM
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Todd Parrott
85 posts
Jun 08, 2010
11:21 AM
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@ earlounge - Good points. And even the 7 draw tuning I use is more about expression than anything else. I can overblow 6, but sometimes I want a different sound depending on the lick, so the 7 draw tuning has been good for my style, especially in 11th position. When you bend up the 7 OD and release it, it sounds really cool with this tuning. I was showing this OD lick to Alex and he liked it too. I like chromatics too, but prefer the tone and characteristics of the diatonic better - just a preference.
@ Kingley - Thanks man - glad you like my stuff, but I haven't posted enough of my playing on YouTube yet. I hope to soon. My new Spiers OB harps are phenomenal.
As a side note, I hope to meet you guys this year at SPAH. There are some cool folks here on MBH. I look forward to exchanging ideas and harp licks with you all.
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