(CNSNews.com) - House Speaker Nancy Pelosi said this week that thanks to the new health-care reform law musicians and other creative types could quit their jobs and focus on developing their talents because the taxpayers would fund their health care coverage.
“We see it as an entrepreneurial bill,” Pelosi said, “a bill that says to someone, if you want to be creative and be a musician or whatever, you can leave your work, focus on your talent, your skill, your passion, your aspirations because you will have health care.”
http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/65950
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"There are said to be pleasures in madness, known only to madmen."
Last Edited by on May 14, 2010 5:51 PM
i will pay my own way thank you very much.. i understand helping someone out when they are down on their luck, but it should be used to get back on track..
i will work for my living.. i dont care if it is 3 minimum wage jobs.. i will always do my best to support myself and my kids.. ---------- Marty we're no GOD
I've had friends with jobs get really sick because of their work and still not have health coverage that will cover them, let alone if they want to quit to find a better job. She may have come off sounding glib, but, for instance, I have a friend who is a couple semesters away from having teaching certification. The only job he could find with health insurance doesn't give him hours that let him go to school. There are times when getting a little assistance can turn you into a much more productive little tax payer a little ways down the line.
For far too long for many pro musicians, the cost of health insurance has been so cost prohibitive and so many of them who get sick, even if they wind up on Medicaid, still get stuck with huge expenses, and since the cost is so high, it boggles the mind how many of these guys I know for a fact have put off going to the doctor for even something as mundane as an annual checkup, and I can include myself in that for a period of time, and too many years of that, with years of unchecked diabetes and high blood pressure, I wound up having my kidneys fail and then go into kidney dialysis for almost 3 years. Thankfully, since May 1, 2003, I've been living with a kidney transplant.
Three are tons f people working day gigs where their health insurance essentially covers little and they're paying thru the nose. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
When does this start. I work for morons. According to to my boss I'm only one step above incompetent. I've worked there for 21 years and at the job I have now for twelve. I'm the union rep in my area so they hate me and use job evaluations as a vendetta.
eharp that's reminds me of the old Woody Guthrie lyric, "Some men rob you with a six gun the others with a fountain pen".
Bob that sucks so bad in the USA to hear a story like that. Fortunately I have insurance to get me tests for my diabetes and get drugs and a supplement at a low cost. Since I work part time I still pay about 2500 a year for my part. 10 for a doctor 20 for a specialist.
There are some in the U.S. for whom "regulation" is a dirty word. We (the U.S.) ceded regulation of the health care industry many years ago. Amazingly, the health insurance industry is the ONLY major industry in the U.S. that is EXEMPT from anti-trust law. Their lobbyists got that for them. So the health insurance companies colluded for years, reducing benefits, increasing profits, eliminating competition, not delivering coverage they promised to deliver... and fought vigorously for years against any reforms to the system.
Guess what - we did the same thing with the banks and Wall Street. "Privatize, privatize, privatize" some people cry. They don't realize that when you privatize and de-regulate major industries they will take advantage of people who can't afford to complain.
We are paying a huge price for deregulation of the health care, financial, and energy industries. And the executives of those very industries hold whatever regulatory positions are left. And they spend BILLIONS of $$ through their lobbysists to gain control of the political process. It has to change. The health care initiative didn't accomplish nearly enough but it is a HUGE step. I am self employed. My health coverage costs me $800 a MONTH. And I still have to pay a good portion of every doctor and prescription bill.
Need to write "The deregulation Blues"!!! ---------- /Greg
And... Nancy Pelosi did not say taxpayers will pay for your health care. She said if you are entreprenaurial you can do your own thing and not lose your coverage because you decide to quit your job. You still have to pay for it yourself, but portablility (and the end of pre-existing conditions) allows you to take it with you. The old COBRA model was similar but it had a time limit.
Lots of missinformation out there about HCR. This lie from Conservative News Service is just one example.
A lot of what happens over here is almost a carbon copy of what goes on in the US. The US is a really great place that has contributed heavily in ways that the rest of the world has to be thankful, but we also pick up and run with some of your failings ie in health, banking , financial & media.
But over here we really go too far in allowing monopolies to reign & ruin our lifestyle. We have a monopoly that controls 70% of our grocery, fuel, alcohol & gambling spend. Our govt even when they change colour fail to fix it. Australian made grocery items sell in the US & the UK at prices up to half what they screw us for. The monopoly also owns and controls and sits on available real estate hence stopping competition from starting.
Hey I thought we are supposed to practice playing the harp & not harp about the problems that need fixing.
i pay 900 a month to insure my family.. i dont need to pay more in taxes to pay for someone else too.. that is the issue i have.. i think reform would have been better.. stop all the wastefull spending, and ALOT of the insurance problems would be solved...
I agree aussiesucker we should not harp about the problems that need fixing-it is tough all over-would love to visit your country my baby bro was stationed in brisbane in the usmc and thought sydney was the greatest spot on earth him and his mates had great times there
Gwood, if you are paying for health insurance, you are already paying for someone else's health care. Insurance is a pool of shared risk. They don't give you your money back if you DON'T get sick, right? Your premiums pay for the doctor bills of others. That is how insurance works.
GWood - what was said above is correct. Not to mention communicable diseases - which YOU are more likely to get if the people around you are not healthy - getting their flu shots, vaccines, etc. But most importantly, this country has never stood for "I got mine, fuck you". Should the (taxpayer funded) fire department only put out fires in YOUR neighborhood? Should your (taxpayer funded) police department only patrol your streets? Should the (taxpayer funded) pubic schools only educate your kids? Healthcare is a basic human right, provided (in most case better than in the U.S.) by every modern country in the world. Nations have taxes to fund services everyone needs.
"But most importantly, this country has never stood for "I got mine, fuck you"." but that is the exact reason we are in our current predicament. banks selling stuff they thought were bad risks to folks by telling them they were good deals. insurance/drug companies trying to make the biggest profit possible. oil companies drilling without proper safety procedures in place. sports players asking for more and more money because the team owners can ask for outrageous ticket prices without regard to how an average joe will afford to take his son to a ball game. and i live by neighborhoods where the cops will not go at night! it would be nice to think we arent a country run by selfishness, but we are. why do you think the health care bill barely passed?
"this country has never stood for "I got mine, fuck you". Should the (taxpayer funded) fire department only put out fires in YOUR neighborhood? Should your (taxpayer funded) police department only patrol your streets? Should the (taxpayer funded) pubic schools only educate your kids? Healthcare is a basic human right, provided (in most case better than in the U.S.) by every modern country in the world. Nations have taxes to fund services everyone needs. "
now that isnt what i said.. i didnt say i didnt wanna pay for protective services.. some taxes are good, that is a given.. but the last thing i wanna do is give one more dollar to those corrupt bastards in washington..
remember, all those private banks that gave out those bad loans, were TOLD to give them out. dont worry about what will happen.. fanny and freddie will buy them from you.. no bank that wants to make money would willingly give out a bad loan.. unless they are told that the gov will pay for em.. you know.. with our $$$$$
im glad people that couldnt get insurance can now get it.. but they really did nothing to offset what that will cost.. so guess what we have to pay for it.. they should have added way more cost cutting measures.. they dropped the ball
I just wish these objectivist/ Randian / uber-Libertarian nihilists would just MOVE to their utopian island; and leave the rest of us alone. You know why they won't do it? BECAUSE they are COWARDS that know that their philosophy is bankrupt, and contingent on the EXPLOITATION of masses. They will never JOHN GALT, despite their tired remonstrations. They love money too much.
The real problem is that govts which are elected by us are now no longer really in control. Big business, big monopolies own the game. If govts step on their toes then big monopoly media sinks them.
Only when all govts co-operate with strong similar legislation, tight regulation, and fair equitable tax regimes that curb greed & lop monopolies will we see real improvement.
I don't believe such views are political anymore. Democracy is not really working as it should.
I think we need a banner mods can slip into the first post of a thread to warn that the thread may be headed into heated territory. Personally, I like the idea from I, Robot... the book, not the movie. The robots, programmed with the idea to do what's best for people, secretly take over the government and run things. I for one, welcome our robot overlords.
" hate right wing morons and their stupidity. THEY are the cause of ALL that is currently wrong in America.
These are ANTI-AMERICAN traitors that must GO !
They HAVE to GO ! By bullet, ballot, or rope, these Right-Wing nihilist hater/TRAITORS must GO! "
now this is just tooooooo funy!! it has nothing to do with right and left.. both sides are taking this country down the wrong path.. if one side was right, i would support them.. but neither of them are, and that is obvious.. if you think republicans ar the only devil, then how do you explain california.. BOTH SIDES ARE BAD FOR US THE AMERICAN PEOPLE!
edit: you are right though.. i love money, withought it i couldnt get a harmonica to play.... :) ---------- Marty we're no GOD (Greenwood)
In Belgium, as I think in the whole European Community, everybody's health is covered by public fund. Doctor consultations, medicines and operations are covered almost entirely, if you got a job or not. Plastic surgery is not covered though, unless it's plastic reconstruction after an accident or illness.
There's also what we call "artist status" that allows you to work as an artist, musician or else, and get something like 1000 euros per month from public money to complete what you earn as an artist (paid gigs, selling paintings, etc.), provided that your incomes are declared and don't surpass a certain amount.
Last Edited by on May 17, 2010 11:48 AM
1 get the drug companies out of the AMA (American Medical Association)
2 get rid of insurance companies, give that money to the Dr's and nurses. It's the insurance co's creating the pre-existing condition issue. Let the hospitals manage the medicine and the cash.
3 open the standard of care to naturalpathic medicine. the naturalpaths are running rings around the MD's, so are the chiropractors for that matter. Our standard doctors don't seem to be free to think. They just follow the 'standard' that are detailed for them. Any variation from these standards can cost them their licenses. MD's will keep you alive, the naturalpath will make you healthy. Its not within the scope of the 'Medical Doctor' to do this.
4 medical science, the system that distributes the science are corrupted. They'll publish anything. Mostly to get money from the drug company that's paying for the research. Dr's must keep current with advancements. Getting rid of the mountain of trash they have to sift through would help things. It can take twenty years, or so, to get new info out into the medical services. The bureaucracy has failed.
5 keep gov out of the loop.
6 I'm told that Dr's don't get tax breaks for free public services. Seems that a lot could be done to enable practitioners to be charitable.
Maybe do some research into what socialism is and how it originates. Quite often it is a result of the masses (poor) overthrowing an aristocracy that has grown rich on the back of the people with little regard to the peoples needs. The quickest way to socialism is to increase the income gap, abolish the middle class and forsake the working class so those in that are in the top 1% can become richer.
"Our country will do fine if the Government would get out of our way and do only what WE THE PEOPLE allow it to do"
Thats funny. I thought that is what a Representative Democracy was all about. A government made up by the people for the benefit of the people. ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Last Edited by on May 19, 2010 3:41 AM
Most people in the U.S. who cry "socialism" don't seem to know what it means. Every modern society in the world has come to the conclusion it is better for everyone to ensure that everyone has access to health care. Here in the U.S. we just don't do it very well.
TOTALLY agree that the gap between the rich and the poor is the root of evil. In this country that gap has grown offensively large in the last 20 years. In most countries, executives are paid between 10 and 40X more than workers. In the U.S that number is well over 100X. And that's income, not wealth, where the stats are even more skewed.
" The top one percent are now estimated to own between forty and fifty percent of the nation's wealth, more than the combined wealth of the bottom 95%."
"The US population is represented along the length of the football field, arranged in order of income. Median US family income (the family at the 50 yard line) is ~$40,000 (a stack of $100 bills 1.6 inches high.) --The family on the 95 yard line earns about $100,000 per year, a stack of $100 bills about 4 inches high. --At the 99 yard line the income is about $300,000, a stack of $100 bills about a foot high. --The curve reaches $1 million (a 40 inch high stack of $100 bills) one foot from the goal line. --From there it keeps going up...it goes up 50 km (~30 miles) on this scale!"
Source: http://www.lcurve.org/ <-- very interesting reading.
Here's another quote from there:
"Some doctors and lawyers and professional people, with incomes over a hundred thousand dollars may feel "rich". They may have nicer homes and cars, and they may have attitudes that separate them from the masses. But they still must work for a living and are primarily consumers of their earnings. Whether they recognize it or not, they actually have more in common with the people at the bottom than they do with the people in the top 1/2%.
Is the vertical spike just Bill Gates? NO. In 1997 over 144,000 tax returns were filed with adjusted gross incomes of $1 million or more [up to 240,000 in 2004]. As the vertical spike rises it thins down to a few individuals, but there is a growing class of billionaires that collectively holds a substantial fraction of the wealth of the country. [In March 2006 Forbes reported 793 billionaires in the US with combined net worth of $2.6 trillion. In March 2007 Forbes reported 946 billionaires in the US with combined net worth of $3.5 trillion. That is a 1-year increase of 19% in the number of billionaires and an increase of 35% in their net worth during a time of increasing poverty. Severe poverty is at its highest point in three decades.]"
"In its annual update of the taxes paid by the 400 best-off taxpayers, who aren’t identified, the IRS also said that only 220 of the top 400 were in the top marginal tax bracket. The 400 best-off taxpayers paid an average tax rate of 16.6%, lower than in any year since the IRS began making the reports in 1992."
16% really, really, and they are being taxed to death? I'm in a 25% tax bracket. I wish I could shelter 99% of my income.
doesnt that same 5% of the richest people pay something like 90+% of this counties taxes? wether they pay 16% or 43%, they still pay alot of money.. i dont begrudge anyone who makes it rich.. more power to them.. rich people spending their cash makes for alot of good jobs for other americans.. there is a trickle down effect and many people wouldnt have jobs if it wasnt for the rich..
by the way... im not rich.
edit: also remember that rich have teams that try to save them as much as they can in taxes.. if we had those same teams, we probably wouldnt pay any... ---------- Marty we're no GOD (Greenwood)
I sure don't want to live any where but America. Just because alot of people "think" universal heath care is good dosn't make it so. I don't cry, I have read what Trotsky has writen. I have studied all the socialists. Hitler, Chairman Mao, Stalin, Pol Pot,Sadam Hussien, they all have one thing in common, they are murderous beasts and failurs too. So don't tell I don't tell me don't know what I am talking about. I base my decisions on facts from history and I am not dumed to repeat them. Know your enemy, yes socialisim is the biggest threat to the American way. Just read the our Constitution, it's the total opposite What is the deffintion of insanity? Trying same thing over and over and expecting different result. Everyone who has tried it has failed. The most recent was Greece. Even China is trying to be more capitalist. Are you guys nuts or just ignorant and not willing to do your homework? Wake up, you live on the side with the greener grass but for some reason you can't see it. Our Representative Republic has lasted for over 200 hundred years. No socialist Regeim has or ever will beat the USA. So stand up proudly for the people not against them or you will go down with the Govermnent. capitalism is good. I approve of this message.
What do "murderous beast" have to do with healthcare reform? Hitler, Pol Pot, Sadam Hussien? Fascists yes. Dictaters yes. Followers of Marx? I think not.
I don't think anybody of this forum is advocating Socialism or a move away from capitalism at all.
Having a government subsidized healthcare system does not make a country socialists or a miserable failure or murderous beasts.
"Everyone who has tried it has failed"
Canada? Australia? France? Denmark? Sweden? The U.K. conveniently left them off of your failure list. How about Finland, Ireland, Israel, Brazil. All have a form of Universal Health care. All these countries according to Bluesnut are socialist failures. ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Last Edited by on May 19, 2010 6:51 PM
i am all for moving away from capitalism. it was a great idea, but like many things- WE BROKE IT!! we took capitalism to an extreme and broke it. people get the notion in their head that they need more and bigger: tv's, cars, houses, salaries... and how does one get this stuff? by earning or crediting more than everyone else. we turned capitalism into greedism. just look at this small community as an example. we cant be satisfied owning a set of special 20's. we need to start trying all the other, usually more expensive, brands out there. not because they are better, but because folks we know "say" they are better. we cant be happy with blues junior. we gotta get something bigger and louder. hell. a bunch of us threw $180 for a harp that wasnt even completely developed! why? because we didnt want to be one of the ones that didnt have it. it gets so bad that some have to sell all the cool harps and amps and mics just so we can buy more harps and amps and mics! this is just a microcosm of our society. and we have infected other countries with our need for more. many countries, no matter their ideology, follow our trend. they want all the cool things americans have. how many of us are living paycheck to paycheck, or close to it? and how many of us think if we could only earn 10%, or 5%, or maybe even 1% more, we could be doing better? can you remember when you were earning 10,5 or 1% less and thought the same thing?
many people will continue to believe the bumper sticker philosophy: the one who dies with the most toys wins.
Sorry eharp. but I like my stuff. And I earned it. So I will stick with capitalism with all of its faults, I like it. Mainly because it is a 2 party system (wish it were 3) of checks and balances. One party balances the other and hopefully meets in the middle for the common good. More often than not recently both sides have been diametrically opposed and stalemated. I don't want my party to win any more than I would like the other party to win. I would like to see my country win. And the only way to do this is compromise through open discussion and negotiation. This won't happen when one side labels the others ideas for fixing a broken system as Socialism and evokes the names Hitler and Pol Pot. ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
Last Edited by on May 19, 2010 8:04 PM
If you give up your freedoms in little increments to the government, soon you will have nothing left to comprimise with. We can't let that happen. Giving the govenment control of your health care is giving up another freedom. I used the extreem to highlight how far an out of control goverment can go if we let it. We can't even trust our goverment to run itself why should we let it run our health care. My health is the most important thing I have. Do you think some government burocrate is going to give a rats behind about it? I think not. Our system is in trouble because the politicans have been working hard at tearing down the constitution and not holding it up. I truly beleive if we stick to the forfathers documents we will weather all storms. The Constitution of the United states of America should be discussed but not comprimised. The regulations must be on our goverment not on us. Everything they regulate has cost us taxpayers more money(than they say it will) with less services due to the burocracy involved with regulating. Some day you will see that the more let the government take care of you the less freedom you have but by then it might be to late. A far as the other contries with unversal health care. I would rather have a health care system that competes for your business with very little regulations. This will keep the prices down so you want to get it and services better so you will stay with that company. I have been self employed for over 20 years and if you over charge and/or do a bad job you don't get referals and you won't be in business long. This healh care bill will soon be a sucking chest wound and the thing it will be sucking in is our tax dollars leaving us with nothing but broke. SOCIAL security is not so secure any more and will soon have no money. The health care will be that way some day in the future when I am long gone but my kids will have to pay for just another failed government program. Sad
Last Edited by on May 20, 2010 3:32 AM
But seriously your last post sounds like it is well reasoned and gives a different perspective. Which I welcome, but do not agree with. Your earlier posts, with their use of extreme examples, seemed to go against what you said earlier about how the government wants us to argue amongst ourselves and smacks of propaganda. Thank you for clarifying your point of view in a more productive manner. I value and respect your opinions and concerns about preserving the constitution and the Democracy that it protects. One of its major tenants is my right to my own beliefs and I will stick with them. I have made my case for the benefits of Healthcare reform and have heard yours. With that I will rest my case and not let this OT thread turn into an argument and eventually become locked. I hold fast to my point of view and at the same time respect yours. Thank you for the debate. It was fun, and with that I am off to bow some harp. ---------- The Art Teacher Formally Known As scstrickland
That would be half of my income for an entire year. If that is not crazy, I dont know what is.
Thank god I have good health insurance.
I make life decisions based on health insurance. Why? My wife also had cancer a number of years back. If I'd not had insurance, it would have cost me about a quarter million. At 40,000 or so a year, I'd have to deticate my entire earnings for six years to pay for that. THAT, my friends, is economic slavery.
Chemo was $10,000 a session. Not to mention surgury, blood work, etc...
Someone, somewhere, is makeing more than a killing on health care.
What do people do without insurance? 1) They choose to die instead of take treatment (seen it happen more than once), 2) They go bankrupt (seen it happen)
If you don't have insurance, eventually it will happen. It IS inevitable. You will get sick sometime, and you will have to make the choice.
And you pray to God that you don't get screwed by the insurance companies when you need it the most, like no longer covering you when you get really sick or drop you, as what happened to a friend of mine, while she was on chemo.
Most people think their insurance company is the bomb until they take the time to read the fine print and then they find out they got screwed because they hardly cover much, and that's from insurance from their day jobs. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
You can make a strong capitalist argument for universal health care. If you agree that there are some people who are disabled and can't work and remove them from the argument then it comes down to healthy people or people that could be healthy. If you owned a factory and one of your machines broke, would you fix the machine or would you just hope it fixed itself? I've met good, hardworking people who have been taken out of the work force because they couldn't get a medical condition fixed. The end result? They stopped paying taxes, struggled to get health care, and got worse. If you want healthy little citizens, the machines of capitalism, you fix them when they break.
Also, remember, capitalism is just one form of a social contract. Way back land belonged to everyone. Then people started staking out claims. Why did people let them take the land that everyone owned? Well, often force was involved. When force wasn't involved it was because it was beneficial to let one person build a granary or an inn. It was all either at the point of a stick or for the public good. If you aren't acting for the public good you are acting with the point of a stick. Communism failed because people are greedy and capitalism proved better at creating wealth because of that. If people are making so little or are being taxed so much that they stop producing it's bad economics. It's evil when it's done at stick point, whether it's murdering the land owners or crushing unions organizers. Both sides take it to extremes.
Taxes are designed to provide services that the free market can't properly incentivize. Before governments if you liked your neighbors piece of land and you were stronger, you took it. People got fed up improving something only to lose it so they formed governments. Governments abused people so we overthrew them and formed governments with checks and balances in them. Taxes where raised from rich and poor people for things that rich AND poor people needed. Think about the courts and property laws. Did poor people need that? If you have no land, why should you pay to have courts to settle land disputes? Well, because land rights allow people to invest resources with a reasonable expectation that they will profit from it. That new factory they build may give you a better job or a cheaper widget. Paying a tax to support the court helps you indirectly. Paying for a court and a police force to enforce the rule of law is good for society as a whole, but not for any given individual. I would rather not pay sales tax when I buy a new winter jacket, but I do, because it funds public projects that in the end, help society. That's all health care is.
And remember, the land belongs to rich people because of a social contract made generations ago. They have to live up to their end of the bargain too, or the contract becomes invalid. In medieval Europe, that meant building castles to defend against marauders. Now it means paying for some health insurance. It's also a great way to keep the rabble quiet. It's much cheaper to keep someone healthy and give them a good education than to set them up to become a criminal you will have to incarcerate or a revolutionary you will have to put down (if you are lucky). That's where it comes down to good capitalist policy to take care of the less fortunate.
@ phogi, I am with you on most points but if the goverment runs health care you will not get to choose a burocrat will. I want the freedom of choice. I live in Hawaii and if you work 20 hours or more your employer must pay for your insurance you can choose the company. I like that way of getting insurance much better that goverment mandated insruance, mandated is not a choice, you are forced use there insurance. That is wrong.
speaking of voting... during the last election, I was talking to a friend about his choice of Obama vs Ron Paul. The primary argument for Obama was getting health insurance that is affordable. OK, that's fine, Most ppl vote the wallets. When pressed on the issue, the friend fell back to the position that Ron Paul wouldn't win, And that was a reason for voting for Obama! Because he was thought to be the winner! I answered back, "the point to voting isn't to pick the winner, but to get your guy to win!" My friends jaw dropped open and he was speachless. In his mind, his goal was to pick the winner, as if it were a football game, and he was tricked into addmiting it. This just speaks toward the mental status of the american voter, at least this one. I wonder just how many ppl are casting ballots for reasons that are so skewed from reality. Going back to a point that I tried to make in another thread... The psychology of humans is, largley, to justify behavours after the fact. There's a vast number of minds out there that don't process logical choices as we might expect... This friend is an example of this. Deep down he was worried about picking a winner, as opposed to solving political problems. I suspect there is a lot of this sort of thing going on.
(Altruism: is selfless concern for the welfare of others often incurring a loss for oneself.)
