JDH
36 posts
May 11, 2010
9:05 AM
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@5F6H Along with having a better technical understanding you have way more experience than I do with the currently available amps, I know that. I also believe that you are one of the techs that make great recomendations.
I think what I've run into when I've been at jams and some guy says: "use my bassman you'll love it", is extreme tube swapping, and cap values changed to the point where the amp starts breaking up on 3, and has more bass than you could resonably want. I've played through real bassman amps that were up to spec and they just aren't like that. In the 90's I had an early bassman RI, and we really liked that amp for guitar, I used it, as did my old partner and my son. If I had known of guys like you then we probably could have made a better harp amp out of it. But I didn't get what I was after with tube swaps and speaker changes, it wasn't awful. but it just seemed to lack character, and always felt a little "constipated". JD
I don't want to start any Sonny Jr debates, I really like Gary, and if I didn't own so many amps, I'd probably buy a cruncher, I might anyway. JD
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bigd
117 posts
May 11, 2010
9:12 AM
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Harpaholic. I actually loaded my double-barrel-blue-steel-sawed-off shotgun and blew up all my amps in protest of all the invective that occurs on harp boards relative to equipment. Seriously: yea I like Premiers (I'm doing a pretty big show tonight with the multivox tonight and will better answer that question after tonight). I love my big Magnatone the most "I think". In all fairness to Rick and the Mission amp (independent of the video demos) I did have a different Mission amp once that I liked very much but sold to finance a Soulful. These days I would love light and loud and versatile and simple. Thick and Syrupy is indeed "my favorite" amp flavor but does not always accommodate "electric" effects that well for me and here and there I would like to tastefully add a Pog so I continue to fantasize about a "grail". For what it's worth I will never get rid of my big 15" Magnatone and my little 8'' Magnatone. And am very unlikely to part with my Premier twin 8 with the 12''. I'd really like to believe that the Mission (if I ever have any money again) would be a good performance model to add someday. My best. d
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Myspace: dennis moriarty
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Harpaholic
87 posts
May 11, 2010
9:13 AM
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I did not know that about the Dano's
EV said "I sure do dig Dennis's tone and phrasing"
I do too, but it seems like he's too hard on himself.
Dennis is a great player, and he needs to accept that!
Last Edited by on May 11, 2010 9:18 AM
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Harpaholic
88 posts
May 11, 2010
9:17 AM
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Dennis, I actually owned that 415 Clio with the 15 before you did, but I don't buy amps, I rent them.
That Clio is a killer amp!
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7LimitJI
120 posts
May 11, 2010
10:03 AM
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"IMO, nothing ever made can duplicate the syrupy thick fat bell like tone of an old Premier/Multivox, and I know several well known pro's that would agree, including John Nemeth, Kim Wilson, Mark Grandfield, and maybe even bigD?"
Really ??
Kim Wilson is in a position to use any amp he likes and I've never heard syrupy thick or bell like tones in any of his live or recorded material.
Even mic'ed up these amps will not cut through the mix.
They're no good for chromatic too.
In todays modern amplified bands you need an amp with punch,cut and volume.
Most of the modern harp amps are voiced with lots of middle just for that reason, cut.
I too like thick and syrupy, but for playing Chicago blues at home,............................ very quietly, .
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Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
Last Edited by on May 11, 2010 11:47 AM
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JDH
38 posts
May 11, 2010
10:05 AM
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@ bigd "I actually loaded my double-barrel-blue-steel-sawed-off shotgun and blew up all my amps in protest of all the invective that occurs on harp boards relative to equipment"
I don't think anyone is being abusive, I think some people put themselves in positions where their opinions need to be challenged, and often these are poorly informed opinionated folks spreading mis-information to the unknowing. I'm glad I had a dictionary, invective isn't a word us blue collar types use in everyday language! impressive verbage.
Is the shotgun a stevens? or an expensive Italian import? I cut down a stevens once, but I wouldn't modify a classic. JD
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htownfess
79 posts
May 11, 2010
11:42 AM
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Yeah, recent posts indicate it's time to point out the trumped-up nature of this entire thread, as expressed in the OP:
"I’ve seen a few remarks online by harp players maligning combo harp amplifiers that have a single 12-inch speaker. They take it as a given that the 1x12 configuration is known to be inferior for blues harp.
WTF are they talking about?"
WTF, indeed: What the **** were these alleged remarks, precisely, and who the **** said them, and where the **** did they say them, and when the **** did they say them? Direct quotation with sources is called for when a claim like that is made.
People, in rhetorical analysis, it's called a straw man when someone refutes positions their opponents never took, or distorts the positions their opponents do take. Too, there is an element of the begging the question fallacy in the opening of the OP, which presumes to know what the opponents assume ("They take it as a given.").
Bless you for coming to the defense of your allegedly maligned 1x12 harp amps, folks, but you've been had.
One can only speculate about the motive behind a fallacious argument; well-meaning people employ fallacies out of zeal all the time. Rather speculate about motives here, people instead should simply imagine how this thread could have been started without the polemical element: title it "In Praise of the 1x12 Harp Amp" and leave out nearly everything in the OP except the "What are your favorite 1x12 harp amps, and why?" question.
You know, one touring harp player I did see using a 1x12 successfully was Snooky Pryor in 1995-1996, a Hot Rod Deluxe that I think was his own rather than a house amp. He was definitely using one in Houston with a full band, and I *think* was using one @ Antones also. If you think about his late style (Too Cool to Move on Antones Records from 1991 is the one to get IMO) with the prevalence of higher-pitched harps, and use of relative fatness as one tonal extreme rather than absolute fatness (what 7LimitJI is noting about Kim Wilson), you can see how Snooky could make that work. Different from his 1950s amplified sound, but the different soundscape in that decade has been remarked elsewhere. I love Snooky's style, but it's hard to sound like him without sounding exactly like him.
Love bigd's playing too, some of the strongest and most individual I've discovered via video. Hope the new gig works out well.
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Harpaholic
89 posts
May 11, 2010
12:10 PM
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I've never said the old Premiers were practical gigging amps, even though Kim, and John have used Premier 88's in the past at gigs, and John told me personally the 88 is one of his favorites as far as tone.
Do you need to see a pic of Kim playing an 88 at a gig?
I can show you one!
My 58 Premier 120 is huge in the mids, and more than loud enough for controlled volume gigs.
When I need more volume and cut, I daisy chain two premiers, or I run a separate cab from one of them.
I have all of them set up with output jacks for speaker cabs.
Last Edited by on May 11, 2010 12:21 PM
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Joe_L
237 posts
May 11, 2010
1:41 PM
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I saw Snooky once at Antone's around 1995. He was playing through a Victoria Bassman. When he hit a chord in the lower register, it sounded like thunder. That man has some serious tone. He was one of those players that sounded great through anything.
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7LimitJI
125 posts
May 11, 2010
4:12 PM
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"When I need more volume and cut, I daisy chain two premiers, or I run a separate cab from one of them."
Oh, dear ! Rick won't like that. He claims one at 12 inches should be enough.
Mind you my girlfriend says the same ;O)
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Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
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htownfess
80 posts
May 11, 2010
5:30 PM
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Joe, was that the show with Lazy Lester on the bill too? Drove over from Houston for that one, but don't recall anything about gear clearly except Bill Campbell's triple-pickup Harmony Rocket. Snooky's amplified early 50s stuff is like Jr. Wells's solo stuff then, a must-have if you love that tone but not as widely known as the Walters'.
Two Premiers sounds mighty tasty to me. A pair of 12s split out closer to the audience, instead of clumped behind the player, is awfully effective in my experience if one can manage the logistics and the other players can adjust to the different sound. Someone who played country in Chicago in the 50s told me it was common for the club to have speakers already hung and the band would bring their own PA head to plug those into. It's a different sound than micing a 12 thru the PA, because you're letting the 12s do the work themselves, and you're able to turn the amp up further.
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JTThirty
68 posts
May 11, 2010
6:05 PM
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Hey, I was at that Lazy/Snooky show. As I remember they played through the same amp and Lester had a bit more of a problem getting the amp to cooperate with his mic. Snooky had a long stick mic that seemed to be more feedback resistant than Lester's bullet. My guess is that the amp was an Antone house amp.
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gmacleod15
61 posts
May 11, 2010
6:26 PM
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there is a Fender 5E3 Amp CLONE for sale in my area for $575. Looks like it is in mint condition. Can anyone offer advice on whether this is a good harp amp. I currently have a fender blues jr and thinking about a change.
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MBH member since 2009-03-24
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Joe_L
239 posts
May 11, 2010
7:15 PM
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Stephen - That's the show. I was in Austin and heard Snooky on the radio. So, I extended my business trip a day to see him at Antones.
I've got all of that stuff. I used to pick up records really cheaply back in the early 80's. Growing up in Chicago, a lot of the guys from the postwar period were still around and active. Snooky was an exception. He was living downstate and only made periodic trips to Chicago.
Steve Freund told me that Snooky was the only harp player that made Big Walter nervous, because he was such a good showman.
Last Edited by on May 11, 2010 7:17 PM
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bigd
119 posts
May 12, 2010
12:49 AM
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Man what a night! And pertinent to this thread it was a night playing my (miked) Premier twin 8 with the 12''.
---Well as anticipated no one in the band (opening night for Ashford and Simpson's "Nuttin but the Blues") knew I was coming but I knew Nick Ashford who owns NYC's Sugar Bar handpicked me (his manager forgot to tell the band though) and I had guests coming so I plugged in my Premier 12'' and...... By the end of my playing 3 1/2 hours to a beyond sold out crowd of Divas from Broadway to TV to Film with an out of sight band. I had 2 recording requests, about 30 cards, an invite to play at the 55 club in the city, and speculation about a tour with Ashford and Simpson. As well as an invite by the band, A&S, and their management to do this every week along with the shows I do there with my own band. And yes their was a respectful pay envelope. But it was at the very end when Valerie Simpson said that she had written and performed with everyone from Marvin to Chaka and had to tell me "you have real style" that I thought this is fun. Man I loved backing all those soulful singers and watching that audience wondering how I get those sounds from a harp. I'm looking forward to trying a new Premier with a 15'' that M. Grandfield is trading me for next week. Forgive the immodest enthusiasm but I'm just in from the show. You know guys it is just so refreshing to play for a packed house of people that drip soul and dig music and be there to play that music with them rather than at them! d-------
Myspace: dennis moriarty
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Ev630
405 posts
May 12, 2010
1:04 AM
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FANTASTIC!
But like we've been saying - no surprise to any of us here. I wish you had some vids of the show!
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htownfess
84 posts
May 12, 2010
5:50 AM
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That's way cool, Dennis, you earned it, glad things are looking up--
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Harpaholic
91 posts
May 12, 2010
8:19 AM
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Congrats Dennis, no surprise here.
You gigged with a Premier Twin 8/12 ?
What a shock! Hopefully 7limit doesn't read that.
Did it sound like shit with chromatic?
Just poking the bear, it's all good!
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HarpNinja
457 posts
May 12, 2010
8:57 AM
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Dennis, that should come as no shock to you. You are an exceptional harp player!!!
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Kingley
1156 posts
May 12, 2010
9:44 AM
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Great stuff Dennis. You deserve it.
I agree with Mike. You are indeed an exceptional harp player!
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Rick Davis
386 posts
May 12, 2010
10:18 AM
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By "Real" harp amp I meant purpose built harp amps, such as a Sonny Jr, Harp Gear, Meteor, Mission, etc. A few wildly expensive stock vintage guitar amps come close, but REAL harp amps are superior.
Htown, you are taking me WAY out of context! I wrote that no harp amp would magically make you a better player (that is inarguagbly true) but that a Mission Chicago amp would inspire you to play more. We improve with practice, not with gear. Get it?
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Rick Davis
387 posts
May 12, 2010
10:33 AM
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Htownfess, it is hilarious that you cry such big tears about the alleged logical fallacy in my article (strawman argument) when in the next paragraph you question my motives! That is a logical fallacy known as the ad hominem pejorative. You've turned yourself into a hypocrite, HTown!
Nowhere in my article did I say that 1x12 amps were "better" or that other amps were "bad." Yet the reponses to my article range from thoughful to sophomoric. 7Limit's penis reference was adolescent, and preditable.
You guys need to lighten up! I write a little article that chalenges conventinal wisdom and you guys start screaming and running around like your hair is on fire. Too funny...
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-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
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Ev630
416 posts
May 12, 2010
10:56 AM
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All this squabbling... JD and I look down on this from the lofty heights of Mount Clark and Mount Simmons and just shake our heads. Foolish mortals, like tiny ants.
Hey, JD - happy birthday, man. One of these days I want to get to Seattle and hit a jam with you, then ribs at your favorite joint ON ME, buddy.
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htownfess
86 posts
May 12, 2010
12:39 PM
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Out of context? No, look at the two complete paragraphs:
“An amp will NOT make you a better player, no matter who endorses it. But a good amp will inspire you to play and practice more.”
“The Mission Chicago amp is for everyone. Nobody will ever suggest you need to have a certain level of "chops" to play this amp. That is bullshit. I will never insult your playing, only encourage you. This amp will make you better, not the other way around.”
Your second paragraph doesn’t say anything about practicing.
If those are "alleged" logical fallacies in your OP, Rick, all you had to do was produce a single scrap of evidence to disprove them. Why aren't you posting the direct quotations to show your opening wasn't a string of straw men? If you can’t, then the straw man ID isn’t an allegation or a charge anymore: it’s a fact. Your omission is an admission.
"One can only speculate about the motive behind a fallacious argument; well-meaning people employ fallacies out of zeal all the time. Rather speculate about motives here, people instead should simply imagine how this thread could have been started without the polemical element"
There is no questioning of your motives there, Rick; there is precisely the opposite. I am reminding the audience that good people can use bad arguments. Thus there is no hypocrisy on my part. *You* are the only one making an ad hominem argument here, calling me a hypocrite; and the purpose of an ad hominem argument is to distract attention from the real issue. You changed the subject because you can't answer the straw man charge, can you? You’re grasping at straws . . . not surprising, considering all the straw men you seem to keep handy.
I wasn't crying any big tears. And do you see any caps in my post? That's because I wasn't screaming. I wasn't running around like my hair is on fire.
I was just taking your argument to pieces, was all.
“I write a little article that chalenges conventinal wisdom”
Buzz, buzz, buzz, goes the bluebottle . . .
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MP
254 posts
May 12, 2010
1:13 PM
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@walterharp,
more amp pooooorn please.
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7LimitJI
134 posts
May 12, 2010
4:14 PM
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"7Limit's penis reference was adolescent, and preditable."
See the Smiley at the end of the op ? My attempt at having a sense of humour.
Rick maybe you need to develop yours a little ??
.
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Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Due to cutbacks,the light at the end of the tunnel has been switched off.
Last Edited by on May 12, 2010 4:17 PM
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Ev630
422 posts
May 13, 2010
5:25 AM
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Here you go, Rick. It doesn't have the $1000 worth of tube reverb and attenuator and larger trannie (or the Celestion Blue) that mine has, but it's priced in your neighbourhood.
http://www.thegearpage.net/board/showthread.php?t=717954
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5F6H
131 posts
May 13, 2010
6:18 AM
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@ Rick "By "Real" harp amp I meant purpose built harp amps, such as a Sonny Jr, Harp Gear, Meteor, Mission, etc. A few wildly expensive stock vintage guitar amps come close, but REAL harp amps are superior."
Such a statement would suggest that you have an in depth knowledge of the circuits of the amps you mention...for instance Brian doesn't shout about his circuits and I have never seen him publish any specific info or pics (not that he needs to, customer testimonials are everywhere), so I don't see how you can make the differention between typical, good sounding, generic amp circuits and "real" harp amps. You are making assumptions here. Even when I look at most "REAL" harp amp circuits, the ancestral relationship with commonly used, but excellent guitar amps (for harp) is often immediately apparent & they can share 90% of the circuit.
Maybe you have examined all the circuits mentioned to come up with that statement...but it seems clear to me that you haven't.
I wouldn't be surprised if the Mission were actually the amp most removed from what I might typically expect.
I have played all the amps you mention except for the HGs (don't seem to be many large HGs round my area) and excellent & unique as some are, a buddy of mine has a repro brown 3x10 Bandmaster with a late 6G7A circuit, simply serviced, that sounds as good as ANYTHING (he also owns/has owned & played many "real" harp amps). The advantage to buying a "harp" amp is not always entirely in the circuitry, it can be as much about having the time consuming & expensive tube & speaker testing already done for you, so that when your amp arrives on the doorstep, you can take it out & gig hassle free. You might find a gem of a vintage/repro amp, but it might even cost you less to buy a new "harp" amp, plus you get a warranty, support & sometimes excellent resale prospects.
Amps to some degree are like cups...it's a coffee cup if it's got coffee in it, it's a tea cup if it's got tea in it. But the cup can still be the same cup.
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