It has been a while that I've been thinking about this. There are certain things about the harmonica that bother me. The important factor in this considerations is the sound.
The harmonica note layout is based on having chords at your disposal. But actually, I don't like the sound of chords on the harp. I want to use the harp more as a saxophone or trumpet instrument. So, to me, this tuning seems not optimal in a lot of situations.
Apart from that: - I don't like the sound of the 3 draw whole step bent. Even when I hear Jason Ricci or Chris Michalek hanging on to that note, it just does not sound good to my ears. It sounds to unstable, even from them. Knowing that my technique will never be as good as theirs, this observation sucks. As it is the fifth in third position, it would be nice to be able to hang on to the note. - I don't like the squealing on the overdraws. The 7 draw OD is pretty ok, but every time I hear someone really hanging on to 9 draw OD or 10 draw OD (even some very good players), it just does not sound good to me. - Overblows sound fine I think, I see no need in changing them.
So guys, what do you think? Is there a tuning which abandons the chords, but gets rid of the problems that I just mentioned?
Has any pro player tried something else? I am an amateur player and will never have time enough to experiment with tunings. At least not enough to draw definite conclusions...
"Knowing that my technique will never be as good as theirs" That says a lot about you. The harmonica is one of the most difficult instruments in the world. Think about it, if you learn a scale on the piano, it's the same across all of the octaves. With the harp, there are three octaves and a scale and note is played differently in each octave. If you have the attitude that you can't do something before you start then there is no reason to continue.
"Even when I hear Jason Ricci or Chris Michalek hanging on to that note, it just does not sound good to my ears." The harp has a very particular sound that you need to learn to love or step away from it. If you don't like the chords on the harmonica then don't play them, I don't like then and I rarely use them so what the problem? And WHO exactly are you listening to that hangs on 7, 9 and 10OD? There are only two people on the planet that I feel play the ODs perfectly in tune and neither one of them hang on them.
I read your post and you're talking about how much you don't like the sound, you don't like unstable notes and you're talking about different positions, techniques like OBs, ODs etc. Have you ever considered just playing music rather than focusing on technique?
I feel my style of playing nearly addresses every point you make. Analyze my style and you'll have your answers to how to make things work. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that I play simple shit, I play music, I have chops galore and can make anybody's head spin with the stuff you never hear me play but I don't because music matters more than technique. I'm into making music.
Change your approach or go play something that is easier to play. Bitching about it is insulting to the guys who have really put in the work,
Howard Levy Carlos delJunco Tinus Kroon Otavio Castro Jason Ricci Jason Rosenblatt Sandy Weltman George Brooks
etc....
Love it or leave it or make it better buddy. I have stated before that I hated the harmonica. I hate the sound of it, I hate the way most people play it. So what did I do? I did my best to make it better and that effort alone has earned me the right to talk shit about the harp and it's sound. You don't have that luxury.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2010 7:03 AM
Harpwrench: I have thought about it, but prefer the expressiveness of the diatonic. I have never played one however, so I can't really make my judgement. They're a little too expensive to just try one. From the sound clips I hear, I think they sound a bit too sterile.
Buddha: I have said: "Certain things about the harmonica bother me." To give you all a better understanding of how I feel about the harp, I probably better added that there are lots of characteristic sounds of the harp that I LOVE. But that was not the goal of my topic...
I am definitely not bitching about the harp. If I disliked it more than I like it, I would already given up. The goal of this topic was to find out if there are certain tunings that trade the availability of chords for better single note playing and chromaticity.
Actually, I have analyzed your style already quite a bit... Although I don't like every genre you play, I like your way of playing the harp one of the best. 'Lost in an embrace' from you and Strone is one of the best harp songs I've ever heard. (Is that really the only CD you have???)
As you say you also don't like the sound of chords, have you never tried some alternate tunings that abandon them to favor things you like more?
I have already thought about tuning the 3blow up a halfstep so that you only have two bends available on the 3 draw. Maybe that could improve their stability?
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2010 7:28 AM
If single note melodic lines are your thing then maybe an alternate tuning like country tuning (Lee Oskar melody maker tuning) might be more to your taste. Or possibly the diminished tuning that AC Blue uses. There are numerous tunings for the diatonic harp that might be better to your ear.
Micha , you might wanna take a look at LO Melody Maker (has the 3 blow tuned up whole step) or Solo tuned harps which are 12 holes with all the notes in 3 octaves but of course you loose some bends. Take a look here http://www.coast2coastmusic.com/diatonic/alt_tunings.shtml
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2010 7:49 AM
There's still some notes missing on the melody maker.
Maybe you should try circular/spiral tuning (and come back to this forum to tell us about it) : all notes available with bends in beetween. Basically, the blow/draw pattern is the same on each hole from top to bottom, and you can play chromatically although it allows your harp to cover only 2 octaves.
No. His playing (his music) does not sound sterile at all. I love Stevie Wonder. I find the sound of the chromatic harmonica to be somewhat sterile. I prefer the sound of a trumpet or sax in that context.
So there are lots of tunings out there, but nobody has really tried them? I would like to try them, but at the moment have no time or money to experiment with them...
Seydel offers all sorts of special tunings. Some you might want to investigate are solo tuning (which will give you the missing notes in the top and bottom octave by adding 2 holes), circular tuning, diminished tuning...
If you want to try solo tuning on the cheap just buy a tremolo. It will sound like a tremolo, although you can learn to play only one row of holes. (And I suppose if you wanted to convert a tremolo into a regular harp all you'd have to do is tape every other reed in place!) There are also some insanely expensive slideless chromatic designs laid out like pianos from Tombo too, but like I said, they are insanely expensive. You might want to ask Dave (ElkRiver) about playing tremolos. That gives you all the notes in one key at least. There is an Asian style of playing that uses a C and a C# stacked to play all the keys. I bought the Huang Musette set for about $50. I was a little disappointed in how awkward it was (the Huang set doesn't come with a hinge like you'd see on a bass harp, so it's a little awkward holding both of them). You can isolate one reed and bend it. It takes some work.
You could probably find a cheaper option, maybe with some smaller, more manageable sized tremolos or solo tuned diatonic pairs. You can even play around with the idea using a regular C and C#(Db). It requires more memorization of scales than just playing cross harp, but lots of people in Asia do it.
Chris, I only play a very little piano, but enough to know that what your saying about the scales being the same across all the octaves isn't very accurate. For the key of C you don't even need any black keys.
a.) What models of harmonicas have you been using? Why this question? The tuning may be part of the what mya be the thing here, and
b.) When you hit any bends, how hard do you play them and how accurate are you playing them??
Those are a few important things to think about.
If you've been playing diatonics tuned to ET, there is where you may not like the sound of the chords because ET tuned harps have a very harsh sounding chord. On a half valved diatonic that's tuned this way, the valves also serve another purpose, dampening the upper harmonic overtones and smoothing the sound out a bit.
Chords on a diatonic are at their smoothest at either, in this order 7LJI or 19LJI. When you you different tunings in terms of their intonations, there is alsways something that is going to be a tradeoff or comprimise.
Other tunings like country tunings doesn;t necessarily solve harsh sounding chords but just a different note layout that gives you certain things you weren't able to do before, but you also lose some things that you were able to do before.
A list of different tunings is on http://www.patmissin.com and also he has sound files using a keuy of C diatonic that shows you the difference between a diatonic tuned to ET and one tuned to both 7LJI and 19LJI.
Again, every tuning has a certain amount of tradeoffs. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I have been using mostly Special 20 and Marine Bands. They are compromise tuning right? Also some ET tuned harps. When I play, I try to play as soft as possible. I am as conscious possible of which bend I want to play, but off course my technique is not perfect.
I don't think that I will like the chords more when playing JI, it's just the overall sound of a harp chord compared to something as a guitar or piano. For the 3 draw bend, I just don't like the unstable sound it has, even when some of the best players hit them.
I got the idea of posting this when I saw the different tuning Todd Parrott uses (7 draw tuned down a half step). I thought that there might be some some tunings that lose the ability of playing chords, but have more notes that accentuate the beauty of the diatonic harmonica: the notes that you can bend very sweet such as 4 and 6 draw and 8, 9 and 10 blow (and of course, to a lesser extent, the overblows).
I find first position with lip pursing creates the prettiest sound. I play lullabies and stuff like that in first. Second sounds dirtier.
Maybe you could post a couple links to show us exactly what sort of sound you're after. Putting a little echo on will help sometimes, and the solo tuning will give you three full octaves of whatever key harp you've got, so as long as you have the right key you don't have to do any bending. Do you like the sound of higher or lower keys? Lee Oskars have the holes a little farther apart than most of the other harps, which can help make it easier to not accidentally hit other notes.
Have you played a tremolo before? I've only played Asian style tremolos. I understand German tremolo have a wetter mix.
Oh, and one other thought, the harps I have that have the warmest, gentlest sound have very closed backs. You won't get as much volume though. They are also two of my cheapest harps. One is a Piedmont with Blues Band covers on it and the other is a Piedmont with a couple of really really cheap covers on them (not even stamped with a name). I think it's essentially creating some echo inside the harp.
To address the chord issue: BBQ is right. Just intonation will make the chords sounds better. But, if you don't like the sound of the chords for other reasons, all it will do is make your melody lins sound less in tune, particularly n certain positions.
As for the the issues:
If you don't like the sound of top level players on certain notes, seek a way around it. Diminished tuning fits your taste best. You won't have chords you need to use, and can play every note of the chromatic scale. You have overblows too. You won't be able to use everybody's tabs, and richter tune songs will sound different when you play.
FWIW, I don't like the sound of harmonica chords, either. I happen to think that the inability to "build" chords is more of a limiting factor playing a diatonic harp than the lack of a full 12 tone chromatic scale. The relatively primitive chords available on the instrument drastically limit what material you can play IF you try to play chords. But I don't like the sound I get playing chords on a harmonica anyway.
SOLUTION: i Play ET harps and don't play many chords. I'll use split interval double stops occasionally and I think they sound better than chords. I also happen to think that compromise tuned harps have too many flat notes to sound in tune with the band.
As far as the tonal quality of bends is concerned, if you are playing amplified and use either delay or reverb, those differences in timbre will smooth out substantially. I'm an electric player so that's what I do.
I don't OB or OD. But I don't play my harmonica like it's a harmonica, anyway. At least not for the most part.
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2010 5:46 PM
I would suggest the Paddy Richter tuning. It is almost exactly the same as the regular richter tuning except for one note. The 3 blow is tuned up a whole step (so on a C harp the 3blow would be tuned from a G to an A). This will solve the problem you had with the whole step bend on 3 draw(you simply play 3 blow instead). The only problem this causes (other than it messes up the chord) is that you can no longer get the note you would normally get from bending the 3 draw a full step and a half. This note is the flat fifth in 3rd position, the same note as the 6 draw half step bend but an octave lower. There are two ways to work around this problem: 1.)You can overblow hole 2 which will give you the missing note 2.) You can half valve hole 3, this will allow you to blow bend hole 3 down to the missing note.
As for the overdraws, I agree with Buddha, just don't hang on them, or don't use them at all. Personally I don't find them all that necessary or useful. Just because you can be chromatic in all three octaves doesn't mean you must use all those notes. I think having at least two octaves that are fully chromatic is enough(a saxophone only has 2 and a half octaves total).
"The harmonica is one of the most difficult instruments in the world. Think about it, if you learn a scale on the piano, it's the same across all of the octaves. With the harp, there are three octaves and a scale and note is played differently in each octave."
This is true of almost all wind instruments(there are some exceptions). On most wind instruments the scales are played differently in each octave. I'm always skeptical when people say their instrument is more difficult than most other instruments, I think once you reach a certian level on any instrument they all have their own unique challenges. I don't really think it's possible to say which instrument is the most difficult. Yes, scales on the piano stay the same over all the octaves, but the piano also presents many challenges not found on the harmonica. The harmonica has some polyphonic capabilities but nowhere near that of a piano. On the piano you have to learn how to play two completely different parts with each hand at the same time, but this doesn't mean it's more difficult than the harmonica, it's just a very different instrument with it's own unique set of challenges.
Last Edited by on Apr 25, 2010 6:41 PM
I would just play the sax or trumpet if you want to do that kind of thing, the harmonica is just not meant for jazz. You can try to make it play differently but it just will never sound that good.
It seems like more of a toy in the hands of Howard Levy than it does in those of Sonny Boy II, everything about the harp is suited for blues, so when you try to play something other than that it just makes the limitations of the harmonica even more apparent. It's a great instrument but it just isn't capable of doing anything beyond its niche in the blues. I think people who try to play jazz on the diatonic harmonica really diminish it in the eyes of others because it's just so impotent outside of the blues.
But as for chords, I wonder if it's the case that you haven't spent enough time practising double notes? In other words, when you say chord, do you mean three or more holes? Do you not find two-note chords sound better? ---------- Kinda hot in these rhinos!
Sandy88 I disagree Howard and the other outside the box are well respected by other players outside of blues. So I guess it doesn't work in country either.
It's niche wasn't blues to start with. Try German music.
name an instrument that is harder to master than the harmonica.
Aside from scales being different in all octaves, the harp tell you nothing. You can't see what you are doing and you can't feel what you are doing. With a flute, you can see and feel the fingerings. ---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Learning to play harmonica proficiently is like learning a black art--nothing to look at, nothing to see, and despite the proliferation of instructional resources on the web these days, there's a number of important techniques necessary to mastery of the instrument that one just has to figure out oneself. Learning alchemy may be easier.
I hate the sound of a Kazoo,some people love em,I dont care if i had the potential to be the best kazoo player in the world i woundnt,play one,or try to find the holy grail of kazoo,i would play something that i did enjoy.That solo tuned harp mentioned above sounds interesting,Ive never tried one but,i been wondering how one would play.Can they be played chromtically?
Last Edited by on Apr 26, 2010 6:23 AM
I look at these posts to try and learn things about the harp as most of you are far more advanced than I but I plan to keep at it until I can be more proficient I only have diatonics but they are pretty high quality being hohner and lee oskar really dont mind playing johnson harps
Sandy, how could you say it is like a toy in Levy's hands? What are you talking about that you can hear the limitations? http://music.napster.com/howard-levy-and-fox-fehling-music/tracks/12901495#29703360
Sorry for the late response, I have not had much time over the last couple of days.
Kyzer Sosa: I started to learn some guitar after I started learning harmonica. The major reason being that, like hvyj says, there are too less chords available on the harp.
Andrew: In a blues context, I definitely love to play 3-4 half step bend double stops, or wailing on the 4-5 draw. But that is not the point. I like many genres, and woud like to play things that haven't been done on the harp.
hvyj: Playing amplified definitely dampens out the unstableness of certain notes. But at the moment, most of the time, I can only play acoustic. I'm studying in another town than home, so I have no gear with me.
Ryan: Why would you tune the 3 blow up 2 half steps like the paddy richter tuning? If you tune it just one half step up, you keep all the notes available and that would probably allready increase stability of the 3draw bends. Has anyone tried this?
I do have a question for Buddha: As you say yourself that you don't like the sound of the harp. Have you never considered trying different tunings that improve the quality of some notes, but lose the chord ability (which you don't like anyway)? If you did, why have you come back to the original tuning?
Anyway, thanks everyone for your input, I will definitely check out some different tunings. I think I'm gonna start by tuning the 3 blow of a harp one half step up and the 7 draw a half step down like Todd Parrott did. I definitely like the licks he can play with that. I don't know why some people reacted a bit insulted to my questions. It seems that if someone wants to try something different with the harp, it is not accepted very well...
I don't like alter tuned harps. I'm pretty happy with where I am tone and technique wise on the harp. The unevenness in timbre between the notes is part of what make the harmonica special.
If you notice, a lot of my style centres on the middle and upper register where the notes are fairly pure. However, I have zero fear of using any of the notes in the bottom octave.
I also look for positions where the song will sound the best.
In positions like 10th and 11th, you don't need to use roots, that's the bassist's job. If you're playing a melody you should be exploring the extensions rather than the roots, 3rds and 5ths...
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Micha Do you ever heard jazz trombone player (not classical player!) close to your ear? Almost every note sounds like 3 draw bend!
All Violin, french horn, trombone are really hard to master too. We need to worry about pitch mostly for bended notes, while violin and french horn players have to work on pitch of every note. The main reason why there is a lot of good violinist, french horn and trombone players and few great harmonica players is most violinist starts at 8, while most harmonica players starts at 16. ---------- http://myspace.com/harmonicaboris
"The main reason why there is a lot of good violinist, french horn and trombone players and few great harmonica players is most violinist starts at 8, while most harmonica players starts at 16."
Age has nothing to do with it. Most people pick up the harp because it's "easy" to play. Right from the get go there is a lack of dedication and disdain for the instrument. These people who pick up the instrument, then learn to blow a few notes suddenly call themselves harmonica players and then when they start getting really dumb and go out to jam sessions, they suddenly start calling themselves musicians.
They are neither harmonica players nor musicians.
You can find the same type of people who play congas. They think because they can make a few different rhythms they are some kind of conga player and worse yet a musician.
I'd venture to guess that over 90% of harmonica players on earth are these type of people.
---------- "The privilege of a lifetime is being who you are." - Joseph Campbell
Most of the other instruments have tried and true methods of study. They also have tons of pieces written just for them. I see this as one of the great draw backs for harmonica.
That is also one of the reasons why I chose guitar as a second instrument. Everything is laid out for you. On the other hand, I love harmonica for the fact that you can do things, that nobody has done.
Thanks Buddha and Boris for your inputs. I'll try out some different tunings if I find time for it. But in the mean time I'll keep on practicing :-).
Boris, I'm a big fan of drum and bass and dubstep. From other posts from you I have heard that you're into that as well, or am I wrong? I very much like instrumental minded reggae and hip hop. How are your harmonica experiences with those genres?
Diggs, I suspect plenty of songs 'written' for the harmonica, it's just the harmonica has been an instrument with a really strong improvisational streak, and a history of artists who maybe didn't take the time to learn traditional sheet music. It's fine to be able to write harp tab, but if you are writing down for more instruments being able to write sheet style makes it a lot easier.
That and those RIAA guys issuing take down notices to tab sites. ---------- Nate Facebook
When I say tried and true methods this is not a light statement. Songs written for harmonica are not equal to the hundreds of Etudes written for other instruments. My father was a prodigy and started working on his 10 year degree at the age of 14 at the Royal Conservatory of Naples Italy. He was an American that won a ten year Scholarship. I would hear him practice as a kid.The harmonica has nothing close to that. I attended the Esther Boyer College Music of Temple University and spent hours hearing heavy duty players practicing. Most other instruments have light years of tradition to draw on compared to harmonica.
Piano has Chopin Etudes,Guitar Villa Lobos Etudes Violin Paganini. This is just the tip of the iceberg not to mention the hundreds of works and method books. I haven't even mentioned the Orchestral works.
My Father left me a lot of method books that he studied in school for other instruments that I look at from time to time as aid in my composition studies.Believe me I wish we had this level and abundance of material for the harmonica Grammer school kids have access to more than harmonica players.
My time studying with Robert Bonfiglio and my Jazz teachers saved my butt in school. My feeling is the harmonica world is a bit isolated from the rest of the music world.
Maybe someday Robert Bonfiglio will publish his material. Cham ber Huang was writing a method book and I have the 18 exercises adapted from Bona.
Believe me I'm not putting the harmonica down. In some ways it's still in its infancy.
Diggs, you're speaking of two different things at the same time : methods and repertoire. Chopin and Villa-Lobos' Etudes are not methods, they are technical and demanding pieces written to make the most of the instruments. I did perform the Etudes of Villa-Lobos in my early days as concert pieces ; you won't learn your trade on that, although you will obviously improve your technique. But at a certain point that's what happen with everything you play seriously.
Repertoire and sheet music (or printed material) are also different things. Western classical has its repertoire on paper, but that's almost an exception. Jazz has now all the characteristics of a classical tradition. Difference is : the repertoire is not written, it's recorded. And I don't mean that from a melomane point of view : when you learn jazz, you head for the records. There are also many kinds of music whose repertoire is neither on paper nor on records ; indian classical being an example. I guess blues falls today in the category of music whose repertoire is recorded, with some oral transmission still there. And obviously the repertoire is huge.
As for methods, you're right, they don't compare with studying with masters. But whatever your instrument and the quantity of methods available for it, that's always true.
I guess your point is relevant exclusively to classical music for harmonica. That's an other story. I won't dwelve on that because I know you'll disagree ;-), but I count on you for composing nice pieces.
Diggs, your right, the harmonica is a relatively young instrument and doesn't have the written tradition that other instruments may have. I imagine that you could do a study on it like any other instrument, but the problem comes down to what is written and what is in some guys head somewhere.
A lot of theory books apply just as easily to harmonica as any other instrument. And really, if you can read sheet music you can play all sorts of stuff written for other instruments on harmonica. There are huge orchestras full of harmonicas in Asia.
Your right though, lots of the stuff that's been performed, particularly on the diatonic, isn't in the written down format, at least compared to all the classical music. That may have to do with scale. Classical music gets performed in very large groups, so it's more important to have something written down to control the chaos. You even need a crazy guy up front waving a stick who isn't even playing an instrument!
I think classical music also tends to get studied at colleges. Parents don't like writing checks to cover music majors tuition, and they particularly don't like it if the kid wants to be in a rock band. Since so many musicians study classical you end up with lots of musicians ending up as professors at universities with classical background.
Ok, I'm just rambling now. Bedtime. Night everyone. :)
For what it's worth I can play the main theme for Bach's 'Little Fugue' on harmonica. :)
