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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Positions/Modes...Which Option?
Positions/Modes...Which Option?
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harpdude61
104 posts
Apr 24, 2010
6:08 AM
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I play positions 1,2,and 3 most of the time. I do like 5th sometimes because most of the splits (blocking two holes) work on both blow and draw. Good for background to minor stuff.
While checking out the harp sites posted here the other day, I found one about playing several modes within a C major scale just by starting on different notes of the scale and keeping the sharps and flats out, which led me to trying to find out which modes worked best with what positions.
Once I figured this thing out it is a VERY useful tool.
http://www.overblow.com/?menuid=26# Nice thing is you can find positions to play the various modes, without needing over-blows or a lot of bends. On the left click harp key "C" and natural minor (Aeolian), then go up and down the second column, which is the key, and you find that the A harp works best. This is 4th position.
So after more research I find that positions 1,2,3,4,5,6,11,and 12 have uses with these various modes.
Then I listen to some of Jason's youtube stuff and he is playing in all these modes, BUT he does them all in either 1st, 2nd, or 3rd position. I know he uses over-blows and overdraws to make this possible.
Blues is what I spend most of my time playing, but I am interested in learning these modes and where they are useful.
My question is this....if I want to learn these various modes and the scales that go with them, would I be better off to focus my time (which I need more of) on learning scales in 7 or 8 different positions or would it be best to just work on the scales in the 3 positions that are most popular? I do over-blow. It seems that learning the various scales in familiar blues positions would make you a better blues player.
The advantages are obvious to learning both. The root notes sound better to me in 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. Does anyone know if Jason uses something besides positions 1,2,3 on any of his songs?
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hvyj
299 posts
Apr 24, 2010
6:36 AM
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Personally, I think the most "useful" thing to do is learn to play the pentatonic scales which have common breath patterns in the most commonly use positions. These are as follows:
The major pentatonic scale in FIRST position is the same breath pattern as the minor pentatonic scale in FOURTH position. Same notes, same intervals, just start on a different hole.
The major pentatonic scale in SECOND position is the same breath pattern as minor pentatonic scale in FIFTH position. Same notes, same intervals, just start on a different hole.
The minor pentatonic scale in THIRD position is the same breath pattern as the major pentatonic scale in TWELFTH position. Same notes, same intervals, just start on a different hole.
So, learn these 3 breath patterns and learn the blues scale in second position and you will be able to get around well enough in 6 positions to improvise if you've got a good enough ear.
Also, SECOND position has the same breath pattern as ELEVENTH position.
Now, the blues scale is very close to the minor pentatonic scale. Ignoring "blue note" tonality for the moment, you just add a flat 5th to the minor pentatonic scale and you have the blues scale.
So, IMHO, if a player wants to learn to get around in multiple positions, this is the easiest and most useful way start to do it.
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Tuckster
494 posts
Apr 24, 2010
6:53 AM
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Can somebody point me to some songs that use 4th and 5th?
For me,it helps a lot to actually hear it.
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hvyj
300 posts
Apr 24, 2010
7:08 AM
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Not much recorded in 5th, but it's a great position to use for natural minor key blues. MOONDANCE and LITTLE WING can easily be played in 5th.
The original ALL ALONG THE WATCHTOWER by Bob Dylan is in 4th. SHE by Sugar Blue from the "In Your Eyes" CD is also in 4th.
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HarpNinja
406 posts
Apr 24, 2010
7:52 AM
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I love hvj's advice here...then eventually, learn to expand on the pentatonic to play new scales within a position.
For example, from third I will play the minor pent, blues, Dorian, and Aeolian scales/modes....mixing them within a song.
Even in a blues, I'll play, from 2nd, Mixolydian, blues, pentatonics, bebop, major, and whole tone.
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hvyj
301 posts
Apr 24, 2010
7:58 AM
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I don't OB myself, but I agree w/ what HarpNinja is saying. Once you learn the common pentatonic scales and can get around in multiple positions, then expanding to fill in the remaining notes of the scales as you need them is NBD.
But just knowing the major and minor pentatonic scales (and the blues scale) enables a player to solo and improvise over a very wide variety of material. One can get A LOT of mileage out of knowing just these scales.
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harpdude61
105 posts
Apr 24, 2010
9:40 AM
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Great responses! hvyj I picked up on the relationship between 1 and 4 but not the one between 2 and 5 or 3 and 12. Ninja, I like your answer. Learning various modes in a specific position would offer more options in a song.
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Jim Rumbaugh
197 posts
Apr 24, 2010
7:10 PM
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My 12th position epiphany came 2 weeks ago. It was from a previous post by HVYJ, Buddah and a few others. The country band I sat in with called the key of Eb. I only had a Bd. I rememberd 12th and tried it. the 5 draw was the root. As I picked around, I found that if I avoided the 7 draw, I could do lots of nice scales. Then It hit me. It was THE SAME AS 3RD poisition. Holes 4 through 10, just avoid 7draw. You can make a lot of good music with those notes.
I need to make a seperate thread just about 12th position.
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Kyzer Sosa
444 posts
Apr 25, 2010
8:16 PM
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ive got to wise up.
all this second and fourth and fifth, and pentatonic and meta carpal and 12th talk? i dont know shit about any of it.
(sigh) I wish id paid attention to my music teacher in 8th grade....
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isaacullah
935 posts
Apr 25, 2010
10:05 PM
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12this the bmb. I'm working up a reggae song in 12th right now. Stay tuned, it's almost YouTube ready...
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