Rick, as regards the "pissy attitude" comment. Don't forget you're the one who asked for opinions about jams. We're you more interested in achieving consensus?
MichaelAndrewLo, if you cannot get along with a bunch of jammers there is no way you can get along in a band. You make it sound as if you can find ideal "compatible" bandmates who completely share your goals and musical tastes. Not gonna happen.
Bands are filled with tensions and resentments, and the bands that endure are those whose members are tolerant of others and have conflict resolution skills that go beyong getting a pissy attitude and declaring that everybody else sucks. That never works.
A blues jam is a perfect place for an inexperienced player like you to learn these skills.
"The thing I don't like about jams is that I'm not calling the shots, and that I have to put up with unneccessary bullshit to play music with mediocre middle aged musicians."
Amen.
I hear you, man. Of course, you have to compromise somewhat, especially if you are new or whatever. But after awhile you won't be satisfied playing with guys who are a millstone around your neck.
Jams are actually a great place to learn a lot for a newer player - but it depends on the quality of the jam - the host AND the musicians.
After a while if you are a serious musician the BEST thing you can do is get a band together to gig. It was the best thing I ever did. Even in a basic sense. If you go to jams and play the same chestnuts, you aren't working on heads and parts and stuff. After I got together with my own outfit I had to learn heaps of parts and it just forces you to become a more rounded entertainer, than if you are just a guy who gets to play two choruses in three cliched songs in a weekly jam.
I don't want to give Rick and Nasty the wrong impression. I have jammed a lot and had a lot of good experiences. But Rick started a thread to find out what folks like and want. So, in the best possible world, I'm talking about the kind of jams I have been lucky to be a part of that are run really well and THAT factor contributes to them being above average for the players and especially for the music-loving community.
Rick, regards getting along with pissy band members - I'm guessing MAL, like me, values his time. Life's too short to put up with amateur hour bullshit from egotists. I know plenty of musicians - especially guitarists - that I have jammed with for twenty odd years who have not improved their social skills one iota in all the time I have known and played with them at jams. They are just egotistical assholes.
So you can tell MAL to learn skills by interacting with these people, but it should be a two-way street. After awhile there is no point trying to achieve true ensemble playing with these dolts. You lose patience with their bullshit and you just want to play with sympathetic individuals.
So a jam is useful in the sense that if you go for a few months it won't take long to identify the asshats from the good players. Then you get together with the good ones, form a band and rarely visit the jam. That's been my experience.
None of this should be taken to reflect on your jam. I have no idea about your jam but I'm sure it's dandy. But you look like you drank the growth potion as a kid and your online persona is extremely direct and hard-headed. Are you seriously going to tell me that you don't call the shots at your jam? Or are you a push-over? I doubt the latter!
I am entirely lucky to have met a man of 33 who's been playing guitar since he was 7. Hes a part of our band. He's far more knowledgeable than many give him credit for. He is patient, a quick learner, and we can communicate with simple nods from across a dimly lit room. Hes a straight rock and roll guy, but blues pours from this mans soul and we have learned a great many thing from one another in the 4-5 months weve been playing together. Unlike the rest of the guys in the band, he can play one song.. till its done. 5 minutes, 20 minutes, it doesnt matter.. hes a machine. Id like to go to a jam, a blues jam, one day and work out for a while. for now, im happy as a tornado in a trailer park... ---------- Kyzer's Travels Kyzer's Artwork
Tuckster, I'm formerly from the 'Burgh. I wish we had blues jams in Jakarta. Things are different here. Musicians here are mostly live music giggers just getting by. I can't even get the band I play in to jam during rehearsals! They just polish the songs they do in shows.
That said, I jam during their shows. A lot of live music shows have to let the customers sing or they will be out of a gig. It turns into a live karaoke performance. Poor bastards. Standards are It's Only Words and Beatles tunes.
I'm usually a hit at the malls. I can jump into a jazz band or with my usual friends and get applause more than they do, even though I'm beginning intermediate at best. I hit the right range of notes at least 70% of the time and no really horribly disagreeable notes, so the listeners go for it.
The closest thing to a blues jam was when my friend held a harmonica clinic at a music store cafe. That was fun while it lasted. I jammed with a Japanese blues guitarist.
Haven't been in jams since my last visit to London. However, last weekend there were two incidents that were really educating:
Firstly, I saw James Harman performing live in a local club. It was as though I saw for the first time of my life true blues played live. The dynamics were unbelievable and I really understood what it means to have a big tone. The band was also outstanding. It was finnish band that was lead by Tomi Leino (who's a great harpist himself) as a guitarist. That was really something. The band worked like a machine with Harman, whose singing and harp playing was really a piece of art. It wasn't just that he would have played difficult passages or anything like that, but more of the feeling and tone he got - both acoustically and with a bullet mic (Actually I liked the acoustic tone even more). It had such a deep level of feeling in it. Leino and the band really understood how to support the lead singer/harpist. Tomi did play wonderful solos and even did some tricks like playing behind the neck and using harmonica as a slide, but still it was all about the Harman. The breaks of the drummer, bass lines, dynamics of playing - everything was a very well oiled machine.
Another incident was me playing with a remote friend in some social gathering (with less than 20 people). We haven't ever played together before and I didn't even know that he plays the blues until recently, but as he was coming to town for that gathering I asked whether it would be possible to play blues there as a duo. So we did it. We played few of my songs and few of his. I send some songs of mine for him to practice, but he didn't have his recorded so those we did ad hoc in the performance. We were totally acoustic, but in some songs I had my Marble with low volume just to get a little different tone. It was really different to sing and play without the support of effects or bands. I made a few mistakes with the harp but it wasn't important, it was very intimate situation and the lyrics played a big part of the show. Music was more of a way to deliver the lyrics and the meaning of songs. It had a value of it's own, but it wouldn't have made sense to play difficult passages or other heroic stuff.
This weekend revealed me something that I saw also form J-Sin's post about the blues rock. I realized that there are some subtle things that differentiate musicians and artists. Is the goal to play well some melodies, riffs and passages or something else? I'd say that for me the something else is more important. I mean I enjoy the music as such a lot, but it is the message that the artist is trying to send that I'm really interested of. It might or might have averbal manifestation, or then it might just be a feeling, mood or mind state.
I think that would be most important thing for me in the jams too. Is that all just about music and playing skills or are there performances?
-How often do you hit blues jams? I try and go at least once or twice a week.
-What draws you to one blues jam over another? The quality of the other musicians
-What night of the week do you prefer for blues jam? The two main jams I go to are on a Monday night and a Wednesday night. Personally I prefer to go out on Wednesday, but I prefer to play at the Monday night one.
-Do you always play, or do you sometimes sit out? I usually play.
-What is your main complaint about blues jams? Over enthusiastic guitar players. – That said I guess we're all there to learn so... There are a few people who always play the same songs week in and week out.
-Do you bring your own amp or use one that is there, or use the PA mic? I normally just use the PA. Sometimes I take a Mic and a Lone Wolf harp attack pedal.
Very few open jams are going to have a pro level quality of musicianship and the ones that do, they generally tend to be the special invite or what's too often called snob jams.
As far as for blues musicians, the quality varies greatly from region to region, much as it does with other music genres as well.
Something maany harp players need to learn is that just doing riffs on the bandstand is NOT enough and learning how to back other musicians outside of just riffing all over the place is something that too many don't pay enough attention to, and certainly musicians playing other instruments need to learn this as well.
Askarp, the kind of thing you saw with James Harman is RARELY gonna happen in the vast majority of jams and I know that for a fact just from running one for awhile.
I usually try to take the more "polite" version of the iron fist to make sure things go smoothly but with some, once the drinking, pot smoking on the side, trying to impress their friends and significant others come to play, for me, it's time to drop the hammer on them hard and if it means pissing all over their egos in front of everyone, then so be it.
The better, more organized jams are always gonna try to place better players together because even tho you want to get as many as possible, it is also entertainment and too many bad players can turn a crowd away in a hurry.
Sometimes you do need to put some people with lesser chops together with better players if you have seen them enough times to know if they do at least listen well (which is too often an important skill lacking in far too many jammers), they will learn stuff from better players.
However, if you think you're always are gonna get high quality stuff at every jam you go to, two words come to mind: THINK AGAIN!!!! ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
pretty rarely get to go to jams, life in a small town. when i have been able to while traveling, probably the most important thing is a strong house band that is flexible and can throw players up that make everyone else sound better. Adam is correct in that the worst player sets the tone of the jam, but the best players can make the worst players sound better to a point.
a thought occurs to me that these jams are pretty healthy and a throwback in a way... used to be barn dances and people would get up to play a few with the band. i grew up in denver and blues jams were not that common in the 1970's, open mics yes... so Rick you are doing good works by providing an outlet for people to play in public and enjoy it.
Harpaholic, this is kind of off-topic but... The Mission Chicago amps sounds better, costs less, and weighs less. I've played both amps.
The Cruncher certainly is a good amp. For the money the Mission Chicago is better. It uses better components and every amp is built by Bruce Collins. The Cruncher is built in a factory in North Carolina.
I have no financial or business interest in the Mission Chicago amp. If you buy one I don't make a cent. I own the amp and gig it regularly. Everyone who has played it has been impressed. It is the best-sounding mid-sized harp amp I have ever heard.
Go to Youtube and find the videos of Gary Onofrio demoing the Cruncher. Then listen to the videos of Nic Clark playing the Mission Chicago. The Cruncher sounds thin and nasal while the Mission Chicago sounds huge and fat.
Furthermore, the Chicago amp has features the Cruncher can't touch: Switchable on the fly from Cathode Biased to Fixed Biased. You can use 6V6 power tubes, or tubes from 6L6 family. You can't do that with a Cruncher. You can use any octal socket preamp tube. This give you tremendous flexibility.
All for less money and with a longer warranty. From an amp builder who has a decades-long reputation for tone excellence.
I like Gary Onofrio and I wish him well with his amps. BTW... I will be reviewing a Sonny Jr "Super Sonny" amp on my blog soon. A friend bought one.
The jam last night was great. Dan Treanor and David Booker (two pro blues guys from Denver who are both over 50 years old) came by and played a set that just killed. I put them up with my rhythm section. Sometimes you just gotta squeeze a "performance" into the middle of a jam. Nobody complained!
You get the occasionally twit who sneers at the other jammers and thinks they all suck, but they don't last long.
Players of lesser skill always get a big hand and lots of encouragement from the crowd. Players with a very high level of virtuosity (like Dan and David) get huge ovations.
There were about 50 jammers of all levels of skill and experience. I mixed and matched the best I could. Everybody played and everybody had fun. Mission accomplished. It was a good night.
the only jams I have gone to are the ones I ran, or was invited to - dan lynch's (NYC) Mark Naftlins Blue Monday (Sleeping lady Fairfax, CA), Elis Mile High Club (oakland Ca.), deluxe inn (oakland). The ones I ran were general public jams. I only made it through a few and quit. I am not into hearing bad musicians play loud as hell. The other jams were pro invite only jams. Guys like John lee hooker, Francis clay, freddie roulette, henry oden, ron thompson, kim wilson, Charlie musselwhite, sonny rhodes, and that caliber of musicians were jammers or in the house band. Then good music prevailed. I never go to general public jams because the odds of getting with musicians I can groove with are near zero and the sheer volume of amatuer players is dangerous.
But, if you are a beginner, I encourage you to go to any jam you can. It will only improve your skills and if you get frustrated, will challenge you to create your own band!
Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
I have been lucky I guess. The jams we have gone to have resulted in paying gigs. we jammed once as a band. People are even asking about us and want us to play there more.
We have also made connections as individuals through out-of-town jams our band can't make it to together. Side projects also pay well and out-of town jams seem to be opportunities knocking for us.
Last week my buddy (lead guitar player) and I went south into the lake of the ozarks area for a jam. We were welcomed with open arms and allowed to play as long as we wanted. The jam is run by Johnny G and the All-stars. Google them to see what the individuals in that band have to offer at a jam.
We were basically welcomed as family and invited back. Paying sit-in gigs also resulted. I think rick's jam may resemble the one Johnny G runs. Smooth, fair and a blast to play in.
Last Edited by on Apr 26, 2010 12:16 PM
Unfortunately you can't control who comes to a jam. Hence the name "open mic". You have to work with what you are given. Try to have fun, that is why you are there... right?
The only time I've seen an open mic squeeze out the lame-Os is when the musicianship was so outstanding that they were embarrassed to get on stage.
Sometimes they boo if you take to long to set up or tune on stage. I've seen the house drummer kick another dude off the kit because he couldn't hang.
I can tell you I've seen so many times when some jammers, even if you tell them 5 minutes max time to set up, some of them take close to 15 minutes just to set up their pedals, and to make matters worse, they take even longer to tune up their damned guitars, and to further get on my nerves, they have to retune after each and every tune. Guys like that 99% of the time have usually proven themselves to be really horrible, and if the guitar needs to be retuned that often, they're probably using .09's for strings which may bend easy but break quick and rarely stay in tune longer than 3 tunes worth.
There are tons of jammers that two lines come to mind:
a.) Legends in their own minds.....what little there is of
b.) an old George Carlin line, "Hey, I look good in the storefront window!!"
There are tons of jammers who talk the kind of crap that when you ask them are they playing/gigging, the answer is "I'm playing at this jam," but what gets me is that some of them talk like it's their paying gig, which it isn't and talking like that to a pro, they'd have a pretty tough time holding back a laugh at your expense for talking smack like that. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Apr 26, 2010 12:37 PM
I set up, my cables and DI box/digitech setup in my harp case and carry it open onto the stage in both hands. I pick up the two boxes, the cords fall to the floor except for the one end of the xlr cable going to the box or little PA. The mic is in my other hand or in my pocket, already connected to my wireless belt-pack and I'm ready..it's all powered with fresh batteries. Takes about 45 seconds after hiding the cords and Di box under the bar stool i put up there ahead of time for my harp case. I'm a sound guy..I hate delays.
BBQ Bob's post reminds me of something. If you're calling out a song at a jam, remember the concept of KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid. Sometimes you'll get a musician up there (usually a guitarist) that will spend twenty minutes trying to explain some complicated, structured tune that usually ends up sounding like a train wreck anyway. ---------- http://www.myspace.com/jeffscranton
I've been to a few different jams and they have fallen into two camps.
One ruled by an benevolent dictator who don't take no shit and will team up with new people to help them if it's their first time.This is a pleasure to attend and listen to.
The other was the jam from hell. Totally disorganised, not really a blues jam as such, there was a guy there playing a wodden box (which actually sounded quite good), actively encouraged audience participation (maraquas and tambourines and bongos lined up on the balcony round the stage where audience members could just grab something and play along....and they did, a lot)and an old guy singing a country song with a guitar,and both he and the guitar were out of key.
That was just pure bedlam but it was funny and a great example of how not to run a jam.
I do agree though with the comment that they can constrain musicallity and I'm only starting to realise this myself as I start to explore other genres of music other than pure blues. I'm not sure how well a looping pedal would go down at my regular jam for example.
Harpaholic, lets not turn this thread into a Chicago vs Cruncher thing. That will be a great topic for another thread. (BTW, I agree with you that Harpgear amps are excellent.)
EV630, Yep, I am 6' 6" and 235 pounds. But I try not to intimidate people. Still I don't suffer fools well, and maybe it helps keep people in line at the jams. I don't know.
The video of Gary Smith is cool. Gary is known as a tone monster. His DVD about tube amps is required viewing for harp players. But Gary can get good tone out of any amp. Gary Smith could get good tone out of a Dixie cup and a piece of string. His favorite small amp is a stock Epi Valve Jr. Half Stack, which he gigs sometimes.
bluzlvr, you are right about keeping the songs at a jam simple. When calling a song at a jam it typically goes like this:
"Chicago shuffle in E, quick four, hang on the one for 4 at the head."
Or
"Slow blues in A, from the four, watch for the stops."
Anything more complex is bound to crash and burn. When I see guitar guys up there shouting out weird chord changes I cringe. So does the audience when they hear the song.
It's not that jammers are bad players --- In fact, I've found most regular jammers to be very good. But a jam is cool because of the implied #1 rule: We're here to have fun, and that means playing songs we can all follow easily. Wankers with complex songs invariably have this "killer" solo in mind, but jams are for everybody to take a turn to shine.
Gee Whizz - EV630 just wiped out half my set list over on page one!!! ;-( My bass player hates playing "Mustang Sally" so I challenged him, we'll drop it as soon as he comes up with a song that gets people up an the dance floor faster - no luck so far. I go to very few jams now, too loud. The times I've come home feeling like it went well are too few for the time invested. I must have a fragile physicy. (I wish I knew how to spell that) ---------- If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Unfortunately, what a crowd likes to hear and what musicians like to play at jams or shows don't always jive:People jump up and dance when they hear Mustang Sally and others, although I cringe when someone calls for one of those tunes.
I don't attend jams often here in New Orleans, but mine is a time issue, as there are a few good ones. Plus, I play in two different bands, have kids, a wife, etc. I'm not saying jams are just for folks who don't have another outlet such as a band, but I get my playing fix with my bands. We have our club meetings at a bar that hosts a jam right afterwards, and that jam is always harp-heavy! Some jam leaders are more tolerant and patient than others with harp players in general. The patient ones understand that some guys have little or no stage experience, and try to accomodate them. I think that's cool. When I've been to a jam where the core band is good, but has a pissy leader, it just sucks the fun right out of it for everyone. It takes a special person to host a jam-one with aptitude, tact, and patience. ---------- Todd L Greene. V.P.
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 9:31 AM
I don't do the open mic thing all that often, but the thing I hate the most about it is having to play with bad drummers. The rest of it I can tolerate if I have to, but bad drummers are the thing I find the most difficult to put up with. There's nothing worse than a complete absence of groove.
Of course, my point is not to push the Cruncher. Just to note it's also a great amp, and whether you prefer it or not is entirely subjective.
My favourite amp of all time, bar none (and I have played many), is my Clark Piedmont. But I also own a Super Sonny and play it often - and it's an absolutely terrific amp. The tone's no better or worse, it just depends on personal taste and how I'm feeling on the day.
Always good to see a clip of Gary Smith, but there is clearly a cruncher & a bassman & a reverb tank all hooked up together ("tweedzilla" I think he calls it)...not that it's a bad thing, but we're not just hearing the cruncher there...hair splitting I know, but everyone's got to have a hobby! ;-)
The guitarists lead clearly runs to the Peavey on the crates.
Bass doesn't necessarily increase when stringing amps together, in fact even volume in dB doesn't increase massively (we did a bit of testing with an A/B box, switching blind, between 1 & 2), but dynamics (pick up & punch) and headroom can be usefully boosted (smaller signal goes to each amp, power supply handles it better). If you can put one amp on top of the other [I thought that's why Concerts had the inputs on the front, so you could put a bassman on top of them? ;-)], you (the player) obviously hear a bigger sound wave, compared to 2 on the floor side by side...but don't expect this approach to go unnoticed by the rest of the band, "Why do you need 2x50W amps when you tell me to play through a 20W amp?"...mutiny time!
On the most recent Hummel Blowout in Norfolk,Connecticut,Mark had the Super Sonny and the Cruncher A/B'ed together-it was a great sound-also,it was the first time I had seen Magic Dick play through anything but a red-knob twin. Magic loved the tone and projection he was getting in a theater setting, Ray Norcia also played through the same set-up with monster tone. It was not much louder than either amp alone-it just carried the sound through the house much better.
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 9:20 AM
Well, anyway, there are plenty of vids on the Tube of Gary playing the Cruncher and it sounds great every time. So my point is still valid: it's an excellent amp.
Hi folks, sorry for my long silence. I just got back to London after a few weeks in the digital wilderness.
-How often do you hit blues jams? These days, infrequently. When I lived in Brighton I went once a week to a small nearby jam. I meet with the London Harmonicas every second Wednesday, although that's a different sort of affair.
-If you never go, why not? First, for practical reasons: I prefer low-fi jam sessions (not a crowded pub packed with a line-up of SRV-wannabes) and as a grad student I need most evenings to study. But another reason is shyness, for lack of a better term. I used to do a Thursday night jam EVERY WEEK in Brighton, a town I was new to. Though people got to know my face, not too many seemed interested in socialising outside of their regular circles and eventually I got bored of waiting in line to play with strangers. I prefer intimacy.
-What draws you to one blues jam over another? Any jam that is more sociable than competitive is a-okay with me. I'm there to hang out, not cut heads. Also, I dislike any situation that turns into an arms race of amps and volume knobs
-What night of the week do you prefer for blues jam? Monday.
-Do you always play, or do you sometimes sit out? I often sit out.
-What is your main complaint about blues jams? Lack of coordination. I want a ring master who'll limit the capacity for people to hog the stage, crowd out noobs and play too loud.
-Do you bring your own amp or use one that is there, or use the PA mic? Generally use the PA mic, or if there's equipment there I'll suss out the owner to see if he'd let me borrow it.
Generally I never weigh in on anything in this forum. However I feel compelled to expand on MAL's experience. Like he, I am a young(er) harmonica player. My experience has been that there is a very strong prejudice towards young harmonica players at many jams. Many a time when I was so bold to venture to a local blues jam when I was a teenager I was almost always forced to wait until the very end to play or stuck with a band of novices who lacked even the most basic musicality. I completely respect the fact at a jam there are varying levels of expertise and that you don't always get to play on the dream team. However, repeatedly geriatric guitar bullies would force me into situations where I was destined to fall on my face. This is not because I was rude or obnoxious or played to loud. Quite the opposite in fact... In one situation a grown man literally threatened to beat my ass in the parking lot. I was 21 years old and he was like 50 something. All because he claimed I was playing over his solo. Which I was not! Simply adding some texture :) Not to mention he was running the jam and played the same solo every week in just about every song. Imagine that, a 50 year old man threatening to fight a kid 30 years his junior???
And don't even get me started on the song calling. Theres no song a hacky blues jammer could call that would intimidate me but time and time again guitar players will call some classic rock song or a minor blues right away. I can play the shit out of a minor blues but it is not good sport to call that right away with a harmonica player you don't even know. Because most harp players at jams I have seen have no idea what to do on a minor blues, just sayin'... I'm a guitar player too and if I got up there with a harmonica player I didn't know I wouldn't totally ignore him and call some bullshit song.
And what about when a guitar player tries to tell ME which harmonica I should be using, "Key of A, your D" Excuse me but do you play harmonica? I don't think so I'll use whichever harmonica I feel like.
Now that being said, I also regularly attended some great jams that were more family oriented. There the old heads always supported and encouraged the young bucks. To the point where eventually the old guys were fighting for the chance to play with teenagers. I currently go to a jam on thursday nights which is run by a guitar teacher from the music store I work at. After I close the shop I head up there and meet up with all the other guitar teachers and students and their parents. Those jams were and are still great. Very nice respectful people of all ages attend. It is mostly blues but people play all kinds of music there. It keeps it interesting for the players and the listeners I think. Everyone is very open minded and supportive of each other, it is a great situation.
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 12:48 PM
asilve3, sorry to hear about that bad blues jam experience. Damn! I'd never go back either.
At our jam, and most of the jams I go to, young players are welcome. Here is pic of Andrew, frequent jammer. He's in his early 20's, still in college, has been playing harp for less than two years. He's pretty good, can overblow a bit, and certainly does not embarrass himself. Is he a top player? No, that takes years, but I think he will be!
At our jam we have lots of young players. In general, players get up in the order they signed up. If I saw some idiot giving grief to a young player I'd yank him in a hurry. If he threatened anybody he'd be 86'd.
Some guitar players have an inbred dislike for harp players. Read the guitar forums; it is ugly. But it sounds like the jam you mentioned was very poorly moderated.
BTW, that is the Mission Chicago amp Andrew is playing into. I had it set up at our jam on Sunday for all the harp players. Everybody raved about it.
Denver is known for its fine people and blues community so I don't doubt that you run a great jam Rick. I plan on being out there at the end of the summer so if I'm there on a Sunday night I will drop by and introduce myself. I'll make sure I bring a taser incase any guitar players get out of hand.
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 12:52 PM
Asilve3, some of what you've gone thru has happened with much older harp players as well, from my own experience running jams, so to say it's only the younger players isn't totally correct.
I understand how you feel when a guitar player tells you what key to harp is an annoying SOB, but on the other hand, I DO know where he's coming from, and the main reason is that too often at the vast majority of jams, many harp players who want to get on stage are often clearly NOT ready to be on the bandstand and often have no clue about what postions and keys on harmonicas to use, and tho he may be trying to alleviate a situation that he most likely has seen too often where a harp player has no clue what to do, those god awful players often create the bad reputation that harp players get dogged with all the time, so unfortunately, you're getting a taste of that and many people who play other instruments, unfortunately see far more crap than good players, and that always hurts the good players, and now you see why I rant against players not being together BEFORE they hit the bandstand and take them to task with tons of tough love because players like that deserve that and they give better players a bad reputation that we constantly have to fight all the time.
The other thing is that many times, there are tons of younger or newbies of any age who think they know everything because of an attitude they're giving off and so they get treated like that. Now am I saying that you have this?? Absolutely not, so as much as I sympathize with you, you do have to see the other side of that as well.
In certain blues styles, you may not realize that what you might be playing may really not work in the type of blues style he was playing and what you may think as being OK may, unfortunately be in reality, clashing.
For example, if he was playing more the sound of West Side Chicago blues ala Magic Sam, Jimmy Dawkins, Otis Rush, the kind of stuff LW played behind Muddy wouldn't work and sound far too busy and steps all over everything, even tho what Muddy did is still considered Chicago blues, but there are different styles in every genre of music and one has to adapt accordingly, and NOT just with the solos, but also with the rhythm and 'comping as well.
Another example is if he was playing more of the Kansas City jump/swing like Count Basie or even an Eddie Cleanhead Vinson, you have to do things differently as well and just studying harp solos is clearly not enough and learning other styles within a genre including stuff without harmonica is often times more important.
With most open jams, you have to expect that happening, and many jammers have litte or no clue about the genre, period. The better jams tend to be the ones people call either the special invite or snob jams, where the level of musicianship tends to be FAR higher and a lot of that crap won't be put up with, and for a more skilled player, they tend to be a lot more fun and for someone trying to learn and hone their craft, those are much better.
I had at a jam a clarinet player doing stuff that would be great if he was in a jam that was playing Dixieland Jazz, where you can riff on that thing more often, but with what was being played by many of the jammers, especially the more skilled one, the fit was classic square peg in a round hole.
As far as prejudice against a young harp player, there is some, but really in a larger view, there is more against the instrument and its players as a whole that goes across the age barriers too often by the way many of them do things and when they do the stupid crap, those players deserve to get dissed.
There are tons of those "guitar bullies" of EVERY age that, in my book, deserve the title of "legend in their own mind......what little there is of" and they're in almost every open jam but rarely seen in the special invite ones or open jams that are frequented by pros because those guys would mercilessly throw them out on their ear and in the one I ran, if you did that, I had no second thoughts about dropping the hammer on them, even if it meant publicly humiliating them in front of their drunk friends and significant other(s).
I've also seen similar stuff happen to some other young guitar players as well, and there was a very young guitar player who regularly came to the jam I ran, but had to have his mom take him because he was 17 at the time. Unlike the vast majority of guitarists who came by, he played much quieter do it was hard to hear him, especially if there was a loud electric bass player.
Well, one day I got a call from my drummer to come down to his place where we would rehearse sometimes and listen to this guitar player and see what I thought of him. Turns out the guitar player was that 17 years old, and it was just me, him, and my drummer, no bass player, and I threw about 20 different blues grooves at him to see what he could with them, especially when it came to playing rhythm guitar. A few times I had to stop playing just to fully take in what he was doing because he was so adept at ALL of those grooves without bliking an eye, and his rhythm playing was so good, you damned near didn't need to have a bass player.
When he turned 18, he became my regular guitar player, and he later went on to play with some pretty heavy musicians, such as Jerry Portnoy, James Harman, Kim Wilson, and for a time became a member of The T-Birds, and last I heard from hm, he was on the road with Booker T of Booker T And The MG's fame (for which I told him, you replacing someone like Steve Cropper, that's some big shoes to fill). Well, that kid was Troy Gonyea, who is also a pretty damned good harp player in his own right and a few times we would do the role switch like what LW and Louis Myers used to do.
One other thing to remember is don't put too much stock into a jam because no matter what, it still ain't gonna be like a pro gig unless you're part of the house band. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Apr 27, 2010 1:22 PM
There needs to be a good comeback for when they tell you what harp to play. I would totally not use that key just to be a jerk about it...but there has to be a good one liner.
Hey Bob, since you mentioned clarinet, check this photo of Ted, a frequent jammer who plays a Wind Synth. It has a "brain" that plugs into the PA, sounds like a sax or a clarinet or a horn or whatever he wants. And the dude can play...
That may be tempting, but all it's gonna do is wind up shooting yourself in the foot in the long run. I've found that just just play and then choose a a different harp and play it in a different position either during the middle of the solo or other parts of them tune generally shuts them up because most of the time, they'll figure you know what you're doing and you're not the usual harp player he's had to deal with. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
When a musician tells me what harp to use, I usually say, pleasantly but firmly, "I don't always play in second position, so please just give me the key the song is in and I'll pick which harp I want to use." That almost always solves the problem.
I make an exception for a jazz band leader I play with a lot who has a Masters in Music. If he calls some jazz tune I've never played before and he has a suggestion about what key harp I should use (he speaks in terms of keys, not positions) I'll usually take his suggestion. But even with him, I'll sometimes play 5th position when he suggests 4th since I know he thinks of 5th as purely phrygian whereas I'll frequently use 5th for natural minor (aeolean) if I don't need a major second to play the head/melody. But I've been playing with this guy for a while and we know each other well.
