tookatooka
1345 posts
Apr 17, 2010
10:45 AM
|
I've never played anything higher than a C, I've been using a D Sp20 recently and it's bowled me over. It seems that I can play so much better with it and I can mould the tones so much easier and be far, far more expressive with it. It responds so well to any tiny muscular mouth shape change.
I wonder whether it may have something to do with mouth size in relation to key, and the D may just be the one for my size of cake hole?
Has anyone else found this to be the case, I'd be interested to know?
Also if you feel that the Low F's, D's and C's allow you to play more responsively, does it mean you've just got a big mouth?
|
shanester
188 posts
Apr 17, 2010
10:55 AM
|
Maybe that's the case, I have observed that it takes much more "mouth english" to work the low keys and much less on the high. Maybe there is a range that feels more familiar and comfortable from player to player.
Having observed that for myself, I try to change up the keys I play with frequently to keep my embouchure at it's sharpest, and not groove it too much in any particular key.
That said, my favorites are in the A to D range...
----------
There is nowhere to go and nothing to find, only something to create.
http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
|
tookatooka
1346 posts
Apr 17, 2010
11:04 AM
|
Yes this has got me thinking shanester. I wonder if there is an optimum key for different mouth sizes. I mean we'd all like to play like Sonny Boy Williams (for example) and he was a master on the low keys. Our frustration of not being able to sound like him may be bourne out by the fact that physically his mouth size was more suited to low key harps, and ours is not.
|
barbequebob
715 posts
Apr 17, 2010
11:09 AM
|
To put this all into perpesctive, for every different key harp you use, you will always need to make subtle adjustments to your embouchure and even more importantly, the way the inside shape of your mouth works in conjunction with each different key and that's something most newbies tend to have problems with.
It takes time and woodshedding to get used to each key and develop the muscle memory necessary to make the adjustments so that you don't need to think about it anymore and so it automatically.
Mouth shapes do vary, but the most important factors are making all of the necessary adjustments that I mentioned and then everything eventually evens itself out.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
hvyj
270 posts
Apr 17, 2010
11:10 AM
|
Higher tuned harps (D and up) respond well to a sharper attack and have more "cut." Their response is "tighter" and quicker. One does not have to be as conscious of the size of the oral resonance chamber to make them respond, BUT it's tougher to get real depth on the low end bends on the high keys and blow bends are tougher, too, so some players don't like playing them. i've always liked the more lively response one gets from the high keys.
Playing lower key harps requires different technique than playing the higher tuned harps. Personally, I don't use tenor tunings. Standard G is as low as i care to play. But playing tenor tunings requires substantially different technique than playing the high keys. I don't really think physiology has much to do with it.
|
Hobostubs Ashlock
632 posts
Apr 17, 2010
11:16 AM
|
I love the D harp as a matter of fact with the people i jam with at open jams, all i need 90% of the time is my D harp, im not sure why,but i allways seem to be using my D harp
|
tookatooka
1347 posts
Apr 17, 2010
11:23 AM
|
@BBQBob@. said "It takes time and woodshedding to get used to each key and develop the muscle memory necessary to make the adjustments so that you don't need to think about it anymore and do it automatically".
Agreed, but that doesn't mean to say their isn't an optimum key for a particular mouth size, does it?
I'm not saying one should find the key for their mouth size and stick with just that one key. But if you can find the key that suits your mouth size best, perfect playing with that, and then modify your technique accordingly for the other keys. It may make learning the subtleties a little easier and clearer, especially in the blues.
Last Edited by on Apr 17, 2010 11:25 AM
|
congaron
832 posts
Apr 17, 2010
11:29 AM
|
The concept of resonance and the real-world applications of it from Pipe organs to guitar strings has always made me suspect there is a "favorite key" for any individual mouth or total airway. Obviously i can't prove it, but the theory is pretty good.
|
nacoran
1695 posts
Apr 17, 2010
12:11 PM
|
I love my D harp, and it's just a Piedmont. I play a lot of Celtic stuff on it.
----------
Nate
Facebook
|
KingoBad
250 posts
Apr 17, 2010
12:45 PM
|
I would look to see if there is a "D" stamped somewhere on you by your manufacturer. You may actually have been made in the key of "D."
|
Rick Davis
299 posts
Apr 17, 2010
1:44 PM
|
Have you ever played a long-slot D harp? It'll change your life.
----------
-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
|
earlounge
25 posts
Apr 17, 2010
1:55 PM
|
I love the higher pitched harps. I just bought a SP20 hi G because every time I'm at my local jam they wanna play in D and my low G just doesn't cut.
|
Aussiesucker
602 posts
Apr 17, 2010
2:59 PM
|
Interesting topic. For me I am at the other end & really love my G to Bb harps. My Ab is firm favourite.
Am doing a course at the Harmonica Academy and a lot of the stuff is sometimes fast Irish Fiddle & Bluegrass work on holes 8 to 10 on a D. I really struggle to get response from my D's whereas the same tune on an A happens ok. Could use a Low D ok but it just doesn't cut through like a D.
I don't have a large mouth so I can't really think that mouth size is a 'Key' factor. Although I think the size of the resonance chamber, which in my case is not a large mouth crowded with upper dentures, would have to make some difference to how good you are at getting bent notes, tone etc.
Some higher keyed harps work better ie reflecting the quality of the harp ie better harps like a Manji respond but still not to my liking. I'm going to purchase a D custom made harp but am fearful that the problem is still going to be me.
Rick> re long slot Ds are these the Marine Bands? Interestingly my favourite Ab harp is a Marine Band Crossover.
Last Edited by on Apr 17, 2010 3:01 PM
|
shanester
193 posts
Apr 17, 2010
3:03 PM
|
There could be something to that. Getting beyond the known, it could be that there are keys that we most resonate with in mind, body and spirit, I'm willing to consider.
I jam with an old hippy that does sonic healing work with tibetan bowls and drums, he considers music from a metaphysical place.
After all, all is vibration.
----------
There is nowhere to go and nothing to find, only something to create.
http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
|
Rick Davis
300 posts
Apr 17, 2010
3:32 PM
|
A long-slot D is a C harp tuned up to the key of D. Killer tone.
----------
-Rick Davis
Blues Harp Amps Blog
Roadhouse Joe Blues Band
|
Hobostubs Ashlock
639 posts
Apr 17, 2010
4:05 PM
|
why is it a better tone a long slot D just, curious?
|
nacoran
1696 posts
Apr 17, 2010
4:22 PM
|
Where is the cutoff for long/short slot for harps that come in long slot? I always suspected maybe the short slot was what was making my D so responsive (as opposed to it sounding good, which it does to, but I chalked that up to the warmth from the closed back and plastic comb and cover).
Sorry, just feeling contrary today. :)
----------
Nate
Facebook
|
harpwrench
228 posts
Apr 17, 2010
4:50 PM
|
Or the Manji and 1847 are stock long slots. All the Manji are, try a Manji in F next time, the one I got is pretty impressive as far as playability and sound. Don't know if all the 1847's are long slot or not.
|
barbequebob
717 posts
Apr 17, 2010
5:55 PM
|
The D`s on the Seydel 1847`s are definitely long slot and they play well for an OOTB harp.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
Hobostubs Ashlock
642 posts
Apr 17, 2010
6:21 PM
|
i f i took a stock C harp and retuned it to D would that make it better?would it be the long slot D mentioned.Ill waste a harp to find out.But its been mentioned,now im curious.
|
hvyj
272 posts
Apr 17, 2010
8:03 PM
|
@nacoran: Hohner short slots start w/Db and include everything higher.
|
nacoran
1697 posts
Apr 17, 2010
8:31 PM
|
Hvyj- Thanks. I knew it had to be right around there. I have a C and a D. My Db is in the mail.
I have mostly Hohners and one Seydel so my experience with long slot/short slot can't really be separated out from key. I know a lot of people have stated a preference for the sound of long slots but what are people's opinion on response times for long vs. short?
People have also said a narrower comb improves response. I think I'm going to need a chart to figure out all the trade offs.
----------
Nate
Facebook
|
shanester
195 posts
Apr 17, 2010
9:33 PM
|
Consider DeFord Bailey in this inquiry into mouth size...
I haven't heard any super low harp work from him but his sound was very huge and rich, Adam's got a train piece and a fox chase on his youtube.
DeFord Bailey was a very small man, his material would speak volumes...
----------
There is nowhere to go and nothing to find, only something to create.
http://www.youtube.com/1shanester
|
Ant138
411 posts
Apr 18, 2010
3:28 AM
|
I'm not too keen on anything above a C. I find the lower keys more responsive for me no matter what make or model. I have the best control over an Ab, "different strokes for different folks" i guess.
----------
|
groyster1
22 posts
Apr 18, 2010
12:32 PM
|
I have all 12 keys and I just pick up whatever the key the guitarist is in and cross it with whatever harp it takes a,c,d,f sometimes Bb and g
|
nacoran
1704 posts
Apr 18, 2010
3:13 PM
|
Ant- How are you defining responsive? I find the higher (or at least middle) harps sound quicker, at least until I get up to F or so.
----------
Nate
Facebook
|
slobie
12 posts
Apr 18, 2010
3:22 PM
|
recently purchased a dude harp in key of d and am loving it !!!! i was playing c and b flat before but am loving the d harp!!!
|
hvyj
283 posts
Apr 18, 2010
4:08 PM
|
@nacoran: High tuned harps are unquestionably quicker, What ant means is they are not as responsive to deep bends on the low end and are tougher to blow bend on the high end. But for shallow draw bends they respond VERY quickly if played with a sharp attack. Low tuned harps may freeze or choke if one tries to bend them using the same sort of sharp attack one can use playing higher keys.
Different playing techniques are required for each.
|
Hobostubs Ashlock
649 posts
Apr 18, 2010
7:35 PM
|
ok ive asked ive got no answer maybe its a trade secret,Im sorry if it is ill not ask again,But so far im under standing that a C harp tuned to D has a great tone,because of longer slots?That the C has and the D doesnt? I heard you guys refer to hohner,Is this something that only Hohner does?In other words can i take one of my cheap swans in C and tune it to D will it be a long slot harp?Or Does have to be a Hohner?
|
harpwrench
232 posts
Apr 18, 2010
8:22 PM
|
If you stop and think about it, any reed tuned up a whole step has the potential to respond quicker than it did a whole step lower due to the lowered mass. The balance of the reed will also be altered, altering the oscillation pattern, and changing the harmonic overtones.
|
harpwrench
233 posts
Apr 18, 2010
8:25 PM
|
Hobo you'd have to take a D and a C apart and look to see if the C harp has longer slots than a D, not all models have different lengths, or may break between long and short at different keys. For example, Hering has long, medium and short, and the Manji's are all long slot.
|
Hobostubs Ashlock
650 posts
Apr 18, 2010
8:59 PM
|
cool,thanks for the info,harpwrench
|
