Kyzer Sosa
365 posts
Apr 16, 2010
12:55 PM
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a suzuki promaster and a marine band, both in A. and i gotta tell you, its the second one of each harp that ive bought, and the marine bands PALE in comparison to the suzukis..Ive never played a more responsive, air tight, comfortable harp.. both promasters play with the very very slightest of breath, almost no discernible air leaks at all, and the blow notes are just as crisp as the draws, it has bright sound..much louder than the hohners, OB's are a snap right out of the box...for me, its what the instrument ought to be across the board. without fail.
The marine band in A is the better of the two MB's that i bought...(I got a C two months into my playing that was just pathetic). but in a side by side test with the MB and ProMaster, the three draw disappears when i dont hit it hard, i can HEAR the air escape on the 2,3,and 4 draw. the one and two blow is abysmal. when i ease up on my breath the notes just disappear. the only instance i can see me using a marine band is when i play HARD and LOUD.
i could go on about these things, Ive really wanted to give the marine bands a shot, but after this recent purchase, i see NO reason to justify it.
Until I try a Seydel, I'll be a Suzuki endorser, that is for certain.
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Kyzer's Travels
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toddlgreene
1232 posts
Apr 16, 2010
1:03 PM
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Don't trash that MB-customized, which you could do yourself, they are quite nice. I too don't care for them right out of the box for many reasons, but my customs are my go-to harps.
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Todd L Greene. V.P.
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Kyzer Sosa
367 posts
Apr 16, 2010
1:08 PM
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i wont trash it, but have no interest in opening it up...i opened up my C a week after i got it, (a year ago) and it still sits here, dismantled. ive spent hours tweaking it and re-tweaking it. ill leave customizing to the professionals...if i had to do that with every harp when i took em out of the blister packs, id still be learning mary had a little lamb. ill pick playability over tradition ANY day...
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Kyzer's Travels
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toddlgreene
1233 posts
Apr 16, 2010
1:11 PM
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I hear ya. I have a hard time spending 30 bucks on something I know I'm gonna hate from the getgo. Bring that MB to Hill Country, and seek me or my friend Harvey out. If it weren't for him, i'd probably not touch a custom either, and rely solely on hit or miss quality of OOTB.
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Todd L Greene. V.P.
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hvyj
264 posts
Apr 16, 2010
1:30 PM
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If you think the Suzuki Promasters are good, Suzuki Hammonds are even better.
There's not a Hohner made that has compression as good as these Suzukis. Not even close. IMHO, the Suzuki Hammond is the best OOB harp made.
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Kyzer Sosa
373 posts
Apr 16, 2010
1:32 PM
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oh i plan on it... i figured that if i did bring one, thered be ample time for someone to discuss it with me or even show me a few tricks over a beer or seven. id love to see how its done, i learn from observation just as much as i do anything else. ill find you im certain.
and for what its worth, i have a delta frost in G that is a badass lil instrument...
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Kyzer's Travels
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2010 1:33 PM
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Joch230
80 posts
Apr 16, 2010
1:35 PM
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hvyi Have you tried the Suzuki Firebreath? I have one and it's the only harp I have that overblows 4-6 right out of the box. It has the same black coverplates that are easy on your lips. It isn't nearly as bright as the Harpmasters....has the rosewood comb. I really like it but my next harp is going to be a Hammond A....probably next paycheck.....needed to fix a tranny leak with my play money for my last check!
John
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hvyj
265 posts
Apr 16, 2010
1:56 PM
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Joch230, Yes. The Firebreaths are also great harps which have superior compression. My performing set of harmonicas are Hammonds and the spare set I carry are Firebreaths. I also have a set of Promasters that I use for practice.
I don't OB. Players that do seem to really like the Firebreaths.
For my style of play, I like the tone and "feel" of the Hammonds better than the Firebreaths, but both are excellent instruments.
I like both the Hammonds and the Firebreaths better than i do the Promasters. I prefer painted covers anyway. But all of them have much better compression than any Hohner.
Besides having unquestionably superior compression, the tone of these Suzukis is more "focused" than the tone of Hohners which, to my ear, have a more "open" tone. This difference in tonal characteristics is neither good nor bad--it just depends on what you prefer. The Honer tone is somewhat distinctive and many players prefer it. Personally, I love my Hammonds.
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Kyzer Sosa
375 posts
Apr 16, 2010
2:12 PM
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i cant see that the difference, other than the laquered covers and comb on the hammonds, can mean that theyre 20 bucks apiece more than the promasters. according to the tech specs that IS the only difference...the firebreaths are 25 more on top of that..
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Kyzer's Travels
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hvyj
267 posts
Apr 16, 2010
2:18 PM
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I am reliably informed that the anodized combs on the Hammonds are machined better (flatter) than the Promaster combs. This is probably what accounts for the improved playability, evenness of tone and consistency of response, which, IMHO, is well worth $20 more.
Do I think Firebreaths are worth $25 more than that? No. But i don't OB.
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2010 2:52 PM
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LIP RIPPER
207 posts
Apr 16, 2010
2:26 PM
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Kyzer, funny you mention playing the MB hard. First time I met Adam we were hanging out with him while he tuned his MB'S. Man does he hit'em hard. After a while he ask me to play him something on my harps which were LO's at the time. I tried to come close to his volume with the LO'S and they wouldn't resonate a sound. He knows how to get it out of the stock harp because that's what he plays. In fact, I'm not sure he would benefit from a better harp because he makes'em work through his power playing. I like the MB Chris made for me and I've restored a couple old ones that are sweet. The question in my mind is why should I buy a stock MB, seal the comb and work the reeds over when I can buy a Manji and massage it a little to make a fine harp.
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ness
178 posts
Apr 16, 2010
2:41 PM
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What's compression?
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harpwrench
225 posts
Apr 16, 2010
3:34 PM
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An example of compression would be a piston squeezing air into a smaller space, such as an internal combustion engine or an air compressor. Nothing like that occurs while playing a harmonica.
The Suzukis hvyj mentions have shorter reeds than Hohners of the C key and lower. So while the reed is open (which occupies more of the time during the oscillation cycle than the minuscule time during which it's closed), the smaller slot size passes less air. Analogous to blowing air through a straw intead of a garden hose.
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Joch230
81 posts
Apr 16, 2010
3:51 PM
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Thanks hvyj.
I also have two Manji's...D and Eb. They have a loud tone that I like and they are very responsive. But neither of them will overblow all 3 (4-6) holes out of the box. I'm sure I could tweak them. Harpwrench has mentioned before that he didn't think that a Suzuki harp other than the Fabulous, can be customized to be exceptional OB harps. I'm just learning how to use OB's in actual songs so I'm not overly concerned about that yet. The coverplates are so comfortable on the Firebreath and the rounded body style is easier for me to hold (got some arthritis in my hands so that's important to me.)
John
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snakes
505 posts
Apr 16, 2010
3:57 PM
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Kyzer,
I have about 5 or 6 MB's and my experience is exactly the same. Especially with the key of C. I have to about blow a vein out in my head to get any draw notes from the 3 hole on the MB key of C. I play Suzuki Firebreath's and Manji's. For that matter the Bluesmaster is a nice harp, but I like the tone and sealed wood comb of the Firebreath. Rockin' Ron makes the Firebreath a bit more affordable. Amen to tweaking - just no time. Kinda like I love driving a car, but I ain't opening the hood unless I have to for an emergency. I do like my custom MB from Buddha. I also ordered one from Joe and am anxious to see what his is like. I will say that when you have a custom (as BBQ Bob says) you really gotta be wary of the volume of air. Sometimes (because I'm a newbie) I'll be doing an open mike with my custom and try to put too much air through it and it will literally just lock up. My bad...
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saregapadanisa
169 posts
Apr 16, 2010
4:27 PM
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I am right now in my MB self customized playing period. But still love my Firebreath (warm tone, OBs like a breeze), like my Manjis, and find the Promaster to be a great responsive harp.
Well, the way we feel our instrument is to be taken in consideration, to say the least.
But when I sit on the other side of the table and listen to a harp player (I mean amped harp), I am just unable most of the time to tell which brand the guy is using. The look of the guy, not his sound, gives me more information about which harp he may use.
Am I the only one to suffer from that kind of infirmity ?
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Aussiesucker
601 posts
Apr 16, 2010
11:05 PM
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Have not tried the Firebreath but I have a couple of Promasters which look & feel good but IMHO play & sound no better than Bluesmaster or Harpmasters. I have a Manji in C & well thats a different story ie louder, brighter, more responsive & a lovely harp. I'm not an OB yet so can't comment.
I held views about the Marine Band as being old fashioned uncomfortable so so quality harps ootb. I've got good & bad in my collection. Recently waiting 3 months or more for a Manji in Ab I gave up & switched my order to a Crossover as I thought it looked quality and it had a smart zippered case. WOW. Great harp. Love it and I will be buying more. Crunchy, gritty marvellous full throttle tone but also soft and sweet.
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ricanefan
59 posts
Apr 16, 2010
11:33 PM
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Don't give up on that MB just yet. Work through it, break it in. Some need a little playing to "get right". When you do break it in you will see the appeal of the Marine Band. They have a sweet, rich, warm tone...
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hvyj
268 posts
Apr 16, 2010
11:45 PM
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@harpwrench: Joe, it has been my impression that higher compression is not solely a function of reed slots having a shorter design size, but also has to do with air tightness and reed/plate tolerances.
I mean, if you or Buddha customize a long slot Hohner, after you get done it will have superior compression to a stock Hohner or even a stock Suzuki Hammond. And by compression, I mean air-tightness and responsiveness/sensitivity to variations in breath pressure and air flow.
I always assumed that this was because you customizers tighten the tolerances of the reed slot clearances and use a perfectly flat comb to which the reedplates are attached at more fastening points.
I'm not asking you to reveal any trade secrets, but, generally speaking, am I incorrect about this?
Last Edited by on Apr 16, 2010 11:59 PM
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Kyzer Sosa
379 posts
Apr 17, 2010
12:09 AM
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i agree, rice... the A i bought, in particular, sounds much warmer to me than my Sp20 in the same key..for some reason, its easier for me to warble on it than recessed reed plate harps, and it sounds the closest to my Bb blues harp, but the airtight Sp20 just blows it away on ease of play. thats the pisser... i enjoy its sound but playing it good just takes up more valuable breath...im not gonna count it out, thats for sure. Ill bring it to hill country and see if one of you boys cant make a believer out of me.
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Kyzer's Travels
Last Edited by on Apr 17, 2010 12:10 AM
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Kyzer Sosa
381 posts
Apr 17, 2010
12:47 AM
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okay... i got pissed
i got real pissed, threw caution to the wind, said to hell with the reeds, to hell with what i know and dont know, stood up out of my chair, put on Billy's Juke (I want to learn it for Hill Country) and just effin wailed. AND I MEAN WAILED!!! I broke a sweat for chrissakes!!! Im out of breath, which hasnt happened in a while, my lips are numb...and...I think i found its magic, and for me, it aint for playing pretty...this damned lil MB is for the devil in Kyzer. And i like it...
now, back to my regularly scheduled program.
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Kyzer's Travels
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Nastyolddog
559 posts
Apr 17, 2010
5:10 AM
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Yo Kyzer your comparison is way of you are comparing to completly differnt styles of Harps,
if you were to do a fair comparison you would
compare the Susuki Pro master to a Hohner Miesterklasse,
The Hohner Marine Band against Susuki Folk Master:)
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congaron
831 posts
Apr 17, 2010
8:27 AM
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Kyser, you can customize a marine band enough to make it playable without opening it. Bend a paper clip to use from the back of the harp and use a toothpick from inside the holes. Open the backs by simply squeezing either side of the fold with a pair of lineman's pliers wrapped in electrical tape to prevent marring as you work your way across. The back opening takes less than a minute once you've done it a couple times. The reed tweaking with the paper clip and toothpick will give you the overblows. I had my A harp playable and overblowing on holes 4-6 in under ten minutes with a 3 hole draw not working well at all out of the box.
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harpwrench
227 posts
Apr 17, 2010
8:40 AM
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Reed/slot side tolerances are only one minor parameter, having more influence on sound wave strength than playability, as long as they aren't excessively loose like some Hohners back in the dark days of the 80's-early 90's.
Playability (and sound, to an extent) is more influenced by how the reeds are shaped (ie curvature/flatness), how they're indexed in relation to the slot (offsets or gaps, centering, etc), and the actual design of the reed itself (dimensions, spring energy, and how it's distributed along the length of the reed).
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hvyj
269 posts
Apr 17, 2010
10:17 AM
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@Nastyolddog: I have a set of 8 Hohner MS Meisterklasse and they are leaky harps. i am reliably informed that Hohner has problems keeping the combs from warping during the manufacturing process.
Btw, to my ear, both the Promaster and the Meisterklasse are very BRIGHT sounding. The Hammonds have a darker tone.
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528hemi
86 posts
Apr 17, 2010
8:17 PM
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hvyi,
You are right on. I have/had all the above and agree with you totally. The Hammond is better then the promaster for whatever reason. Funny thing I love the comfort of the Hammond full covers over the Manji.
I tried to put the Hammon covers o nthe Manji and it jsut does not sound as good as the full covers on the Hammond. Not sure why. It is more comfortable but I put the originals back on the Manji and there is a reason why they are on there.
I am now down to playing Mainly Manjis and SP20's but thinking about buying a few more Hammonds as well But might try a crossover first....never tried the crossover. Overblows on the Suzukis are inconsistant and depends on the Key. I can OB the C manjis but the A is squeels alot.
528hemi
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nacoran
1699 posts
Apr 17, 2010
10:28 PM
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Harpwrench- Are you being facetious about there being no compression going on in a harp?
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Nate
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Kyzer Sosa
389 posts
Apr 17, 2010
11:08 PM
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i think the compression thats going on comes from the person playing it rather than the instrument. after all, we are the ones responsible for the air being pushed thru it...were the compressors..right?
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
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hvyj
273 posts
Apr 18, 2010
3:26 AM
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@528hemi: The Manji covers are VENTED like those on the Hohner Marine Band. This affects the sound. IMHO, many players who rave about how good Marine Bands sound are actually reacting to the distinctive sound produced by vented covers. The Manji is Suzuki's effort to tap that market. Also, Manjis, like MBs, have compromise tuning. Hammonds, Promasters and Firebreaths all have equal temperament.
Personally, I prefer the sound of UNvented full length covers for my style of play. I also have a strong preference for ET. The only Hohners I like are Golden Melodies, but their compression (as I use the term) is poor unless they have been customized.
After playing Suzukis for the last few years, I find Hohners unplayable OOB. I don't know how I was able to put up with playing them for so many years, but I guess when there's no alternative, one just doesn't know any better. I think Lee Oskars have decent compression, but I don't like the way they sound. Very durable harps, though. And, btw, the Hammonds and Promasters are EXTREMELY durable.
@saregapadanisa: I can usually hear whether a player is playing ET or some compromise tuning. Don't hear many players playing true JI, except on recordings. I think ET sounds so much more in tune. Compromise tuning has too many flat notes to sound musical, IMHO. Yeah, i know chords are supposed to sound better with compromise, but I play in public with other musicians and i need to be in tune with THEM, not just in tune with MYSELF. Besides, i don't play many chords anyway.
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2010 5:47 AM
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harpwrench
229 posts
Apr 18, 2010
6:14 AM
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nacoran- absolutely not.
Kyzer- partially right, but the setup of the reeds is important. The two go hand in hand.
Most of you on this board have likely purchased and played as many harmonicas in your whole playing career as Buddha or I do in relatively short period of time. If you pay attention to what professional harmonica technicians choose to use, you don't see them overwhelmingly choosing Suzukis..... and they're intelligent people making choices for reasons other than "that's what Filisko uses".
Personally I've tried every make and model, and continue to do so every so often to keep tabs on advancements by the manufacturers. It might surprise you that Lee Oskars score pretty high for me, for example. But I can't practically keep an inventory of repair parts for multiple brands (for the very few people in the real world that would want me to build them), and extremely prompt repair service is part of the experience that comes along with the purchase of my harps.
Most people's opinions are based on perceptions derived from a relatively small sampling of instruments. Hvyj got a good set of Hammonds, and doesn't blow them out (requiring replacements), so from his viewpoint the Hammonds are the best harps made- all based on one set or not much more than that. I think if he bought hundreds of them he'd find some that were total crap. Perhaps the chances of that are less than if he bought a hundred Hohners, perhaps not (it's honestly all a game of chance), but the truth is that all harmonicas are inconsistent to some degree. If hvyj were unlucky and got a set of Hammond lemons by chance, his perceptions might be different. This isn't meant to imply hvyj is wrong in his thinking, his participation in the conversation has merely made him convenient to reference.
Lastly, one player's *compression* is another player's chokehold. Nothing wrong with that either, that's one reason why there are different configurations available for different players, and why it's beneficial for players to try to learn how to adjust the gapping of their reeds.
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2010 7:32 AM
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hvyj
274 posts
Apr 18, 2010
6:38 AM
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@ harpwrench: Joe, I've been playing out with my Hammonds 2-3 nights most weeks for about 2 1/2 years and haven't had a reed go bad yet. Got a couple of new Hammonds that were not playing up to spec when i got them, but Suzuki customer service took care of that for me w/no hassle.
From email conversations w/ you and extensive conversations with Buddha, I understand that Hohners are a superior platform for customization. The customs i have from Buddha use GM reedplates and covers and are clearly superior to my Hammonds. I'm starting to them as my performing set with very impressive results.
But I've been playing for 30 years. Except for a brief fling with LOs when they first came out, I'd always played Hohners until i switched to Suzuki Hammonds. Yes, all OOB harps can be inconsistent. But I've never played ANY OOB Hohner as good as the OOB Suzukis i've been playing lately. I'll readily acknowledge that my Hammonds don't stack up to a custom harp like we can get from you or Buddha, but as far as OOB harps go, based on my years of playing, these Hammonds are pretty good. Certainly much better than OBB Hohners, IMHO. BUT, certainly not as good as a competently made custom harp.
Keep up the good work!
Last Edited by on Apr 18, 2010 6:43 AM
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harpwrench
230 posts
Apr 18, 2010
6:54 AM
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The thing is that Hohner has made great advancements as far as OOTB harps go, and it sounds like possibly within the time period since you've switched to Hammonds. The chances of getting a pretty damn good Hohner are much, much greater than they were 30 years ago. Not saying that even a good current OOTB Hohner matches up with your playing style (don't know), but it all comes down to my viewpoint that all the major manufacturers are making pretty good harps (when you get a good one) and a lot of the rest is subjective.
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Kyzer Sosa
391 posts
Apr 18, 2010
11:17 AM
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well, i figured it was worth a shot, so i opened her up, and spent an hour caressing the reeds in some manner or another...I got the air loss in the 2 and 3 draw holes cut down some, as well as the one blow (kinda) and its more enjoyable to play. However, I cant say that im happy to have had to do this. My C harp is still on life support over in the corner, Im sure ive done the same things to it with little or no results. But the A harp is better.
My question is.. why, if youre customizing, does it matter what brand or style of harp you choose. arent you doing the same thing, fundamentally, across the board, to each harp?
Anyways, I agree... you buy me a hundred promasters and a hundred MB's and there will be a fair share of lemons in both piles...
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Kyzer's Travels
Kyzer's Artwork
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nacoran
1703 posts
Apr 18, 2010
2:11 PM
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Harpwrench- It may not be in the harp, but don't the diaphragm and the tongue both act a lot like compression?
I'm just trying to understand. I know as an aerophone harmonicas produce sound differently than other kinds of instruments, but it seems we are at least creating the movement in the reeds through changing pressure.
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Nate
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hvyj
279 posts
Apr 18, 2010
2:24 PM
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Joe is an expert and I'm not, but it seems to me that when a harmonica is airtight and has close tolerances, there is some compression of the air stream that's going through it, especially if the player is producing an air column from the diaphragm.
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