Kingley has insisted in another thread that we're diminishing Jason to call him a blues harmonica player when he's moved so far beyond the blues, but I'll continue to disagree--respectfully, of course--and the video below (filmed 11 months ago) will hopefully convince even Kingley that Jason can, in fact, play straight-ahead Chicago blues. Jason is sitting in on someone else's gear--a Bullet mic, something he doesn't usually use--and this is some strong stuff:
Oh Adam! I never said that Jason can't play blues! Which is what your post seems to be implying.
I have NEVER said that Jason can't play blues! To do so would be wrong. Please don't mislead people by implying that I did say that.
What I did say however is that I don't class him as a blues harmonica player. I class him as a harmonica musician.
This is because he has moved beyond predominantly playing the genre of blues and incorporates many more stylistic influences from different genres in his music. For instance he often utilises Middle Eastern music into his repertoire these days.
In this clip Jason is merely grooving with the band. So he is of course playing blues. If it had been a reggae band, oompah band, classical quartet, jazz combo, etc, then he would have been grooving to that and playing in a manner befitting the relevant style.
If I remember correctly, Adam refers to the thread in which he searched for someone to enter his 'Second Top 10 of Blues Harmonica Players". (Correct me if I'm wrong.)
Kingley, you didn't think Jason belonged in this list because he is so much more than a blues player. This is true, but as he can play the blues more than good enough to be in this list, why should he not be in it? It's not because he can do so much more, that he should be left out...
There is no question that Jason Ricci can operate the instrument, but after seeing him play and watching his videos, he doesn't seem like a blues player to me. There is little question that he could play blues, but it doesn't appear to be his passion.
There are a lot of fantastic musicians that work outside the blues genre. Where is it written that harmonica players must play blues? Guitar players can play whatever genre they choose, why not harmonica players?
I find it humorous when I seem him booked at Blues festivals and in Blues clubs. It seems like a mismatch for the music he's making, but he's making a living. It's hard to argue with that.
I watched the video with the Flip Tops. He sounds good. Honestly, I would preferred to hear to Gerry Hundt or Nick Moss play the harp. Their harmonica style blends better with their style of music.
@Kingley: My original post isn't implying anything. It says exactly what it means: Regardless of Jason's broad competencies on the instrument, we don't diminish him when we consider him, and judge him, within the boundaries of whatever a collection of competent arbitrators might, today, adjudge "blues harmonica." He's playing his ass off here. He hasn't left the blues behind, which was your claim in the thread I'm referring to. His playing here unarguably evidences the instrument's, and idiom's, core values. I'm glad you agree with that much, this time around! I'm not sure that you realize, on the other hand, just how committed Jason has recently been to those core values. He's said "I'm really getting deeply into the blues," or something more or less like that, two or three times to me over the past year and a half. This cut evidences that commitment. It also, of course, evidences his admirable commitment to pushing hard--kicking hard, even--at the boundaries of the idiom, using overblows, speed, and the occasional unexpected harmonica excursion. But he waits until his solo to make that clear. Until then, he's just playing hard, deeply grooving, down-the-middle stuff, with speed and finesse and plenty of space left in his fills so the vocals can shine through.
@JoeL: I'd say there's a lot of passion in what Jason's doing in this cut. Where, exactly, do you think the lack of passion is located? I can't hear it.
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2010 5:11 PM
Adam - I don't think that playing Blues is his passion. I didn't say anything was wrong with his playing on that track or his playing in general. In fact, he has great command of the instrument. His style of music is no longer blues.
It's sort of like Toots Thielemans. I have no doubt that he could play some great blues music. If he sat in with Nick Moss and the Flip Tops, I am confident that they would make some great music. It doesn't mean that Toots would be a great blues player.
Great playing and solid tone. If he didn't drop in those out of tune thinner-toned notes in phrases such as between 1:21 to 1:24 and 3:50 to 3:57, it would have been perfect. (Now I know that in the blues some bends aren't exact pitch, but their not as way off as some of this OD/OB stuff consistently is).
So this video proves Ricci has excellent blues chops and also that OB/OD stuff doesn't really fit the genre.
Man, that Nick Moss is also a talent. I have all of his albums.
"So this video proves Ricci has excellent blues chops and also that OB/OD stuff doesn't really fit the genre."
How exactly does pointing out a couple of segments, in a couple of videos, by one player, PROVE that OB/OD don't fit in this genre? That doesn't make any sense. It's a pretty weak way to prove something...and I don't really think you can prove something that subjective.
EDIT: I think you should check again before claiming his OB's are way out of tune. The first example you gave, he hit the 6OB quite close to pitch, it was hit rather quickly with some bending so you can't be sure how exact it is, but it's certainly not way off pitch. In fact it's closer than a lot of players hit there 3' draw. The other example he hits the 6OB flat and then bends it up into pitch. This clearly seems to be an intentional effect, like when people bend from the whole step bend on the 3 draw up to the 3 draw half step bend.
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2010 6:24 PM
"How exactly does pointing out a couple of segments, in a couple of videos, by one player, PROVE that OB/OD don't fit in this genre? That doesn't make any sense. It's a pretty weak way to prove something...and I don't really think you can prove something that subjective.
EDIT: I think you should check again before claiming his OB's are way out of tune. The first example you gave, he hit the 6OB quite close to pitch, it was hit rather quickly with some bending so you can't be sure how exact it is, but it's certainly not way off pitch. In fact it's closer than a lot of players hit there 3' draw. The other example he hits the 6OB flat and then bends it up into pitch. This clearly seems to be an intentional effect, like when people bend from the whole step bend on the 3 draw up to the 3 draw half step bend."
LOL. To quote the Iceman, sometimes the best bait is a clean, well-sharpened hook.
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2010 7:15 PM
BTW, are you saying you intentionally make ridiculous statements with the intention of trying to bait people into your silly arguments? It would seem consistent with your past interactions on the forum.
Last Edited by on Apr 03, 2010 7:27 PM
BTW, are you saying you intentionally make ridiculous statements with the intention of trying to bait people into your silly arguments? It would seem consistent with your past interactions on the forum.
Actually my post was serious, but I also knew it would land me some fish. I can't lie to you, baby. Why can't a post be informative AND the resulting reaction be amusing to the peanut gallery?
Ev630, before anyone values your opinion about whether Jason Ricci sounds good or not, could you provide some material of you playing straight ahead chicago blues that sounds phenomenal? Without o/blows of course..
Micha - For me a list of "blues harmonica players" should consist of players who predominantly play blues. Nowadays Jason just doesn't fall into that category in my opinion.
If you look at his last two albums especially, it's pretty clear to anyone that he is moving in a different musical direction. No one is saying that Jason can't play blues and of course we all know what a phenomenal harmonica player he is. I just simply believe that putting Jason into the "blues" category is doing him a disservice.
Adam - I don't believe that Jason has "left the blues behind".
What I do firmly believe is that he has moved beyond just playing blues harmonica. Blues will always be a part of his sound to a degree, but he has incorporated many more musical influences to create a sound that is just Jason Ricci and not restrained by any preconceived musical genres.
It is a bit fundamentalistic to put tight boundaries around some music and then say that whatever doesn't fit those boundaries doesn't belong to that category of music. I mean the Blues is actually quite vast concept and it can include many types of music. If one is talking about e.g. Chicago Blues then it is a little different topic - that concept by itself indicates that it is a subcategory of the wider concept and thus has more tight boundaries.
I'm not competent enough to even say what are the boundaries of Chicago Blues, but I consider myself a blues player even though some of my songs are affected by e.g. Lappish (Sami) tones. That is because I still think that the biggest influence of those songs still comes from the blues genre.
I think that these musical concepts can be widened to a certain point until the core of the music becomes so different from the original genre that it doesn't fit to it anymore. When I listen to some of the songs played by Jason I can't recognize blues from it anymore. But in some of the songs it is still clearly recognized.
Now we come to another point. If somebody plays many types of music, can s/he be recognized as a player in some of those categories? I would use here an analogy to the different instruments. If we think about e.g. Howard Levy, one can say that he is a jazz pianist, but it is equally right to say that he is a harmonica virtuoso. Both of those descriptions fall to a wider category of "musician", but there isn't anything wrong by recognizing those abilities individually.
In that sense I would say that Jason Ricci is a blues harmonica player, but not only that - he is also virtuoso harmonica player regardless of the category of music. Probably he is very well at home with the blues, as that's what he has started with, but he isn't bound by those boundaries anymore - he has matured to the next level of skills and probably even beyond those.
In aikido there is the concept of Shu-Ha-Ri, which describes different skill levels. Shu is a level where the boundaries are very important and one needs to practice and master those rules before proceeding to the next level. Ha is a level where one starts to break the boundaries and take the ownership of the crafts him/herself. Ri is a level which goes beyond all the categories - there's really nobody else anymore to judge the skill levels.
I think that Jason is one of those people who are on their way from the Ha level to the Ri level. That is why it is hard to really categorize the music, as the Ha level by definition already means breaking the simple boundaries of the music. But he has definitely done his homework on the Shu & Ha level with the blues and thus there's no question in my mind that one can easily make a statement that says he is very good Blues harmonica player. Only mistake would be to think of him as solely a blues harmonica player.
"Ev630, before anyone values your opinion about whether Jason Ricci sounds good or not, could you provide some material of you playing straight ahead chicago blues that sounds phenomenal? Without o/blows of course.."
Son, get over yourself. This is a discussion forum. Opinions are freely given. I'll even read yours, regardless of who you are. If we had to present credentials every time just about no one would be able to post. Now, lighten up. Go out in the yard with Ryan and get some fresh air, and stop being a humorless fellow.
"In that sense I would say that Jason Ricci is a blues harmonica player, but not only that - he is also virtuoso harmonica player regardless of the category of music. Probably he is very well at home with the blues, as that's what he has started with, but he isn't bound by those boundaries anymore - he has matured to the next level of skills and probably even beyond those."
I'd agree he is a virtuoso, and this video with Moss clearly demonstrates he can play big toned, respectable blues. I'm not a fan of the modern embellishments in a genre setting, but that's just personal taste. Equally, I don't like hearing those amplified pop violinists doing mass-appeal versions of Verdi. It doesn't mean they don't have their place, and it doesn't mean I don't respect Ricci's phenomenal musicianship. It's just an opinion.
I felt the same way about a couple of OB's i heard in the vid too. maybe just one, but hell, who hasnt hit a note when they ought not to have. it just didnt fit or maybe it was the timing, i dunno i wont go back to dissect it. but i heard it too EV, although I cant agree that theres no place for them in the genre. (a recent sit in with Jellyroll Johnson really proved that to me) who gives a big ole pile of stanky poo though, right? situations like that call for rockin the emmer effin house down, and Violin Cat took the reigns. Good job!
i cant distinguish chicago blues from any other blues that has a city in front of the name blues, okay? my bad... I just know stab u in the chest playing when i hear it ---------- Kyzer's Travels
It never ceases to amaze me how much negative attention someone recieves who has garnished some degree of media recogniztion and does it somewhat different.
It rattles cages of the tight rules most need to have in their heads to make sense of the world. Most want to pal up with others that are doing exactly the same thing, call each other unique, and no one gets threatened. That pretty much sums up the blues scene for me. After 35 years of being in it, I have found those making it are pretty much carbon copies, or conglomarates of riffs that are established as great. Do it a bit different and you are forever excluded from the club.
Fear is usually the immediate response to something different and is usually expressed in violent acts of some sort. Here on the net it is expressed with negative words. I respect Jason from what I have read and heard him say. He plays harp his own way. Whether his playing is to my liking or not, it gets my respect.
Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
"I hear you, Kyzer! Everyone's entitled to an opinion. :)"
My opinion is that you should back up your opinions with evidence to prove that you can do it better. Usually those who can't do something criticize it first and ask questions later. Again, just an opinion ;)
Yes.... but in many cases the opinions are followed by "pissing on" the other guys leg. No need for opinions to be confrontational.
---------- Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. - Charlie Parker
jason is a blues player.. and punk, rock, and im sure he has touched a few other genres.. just cause he isnt focused on the blues solely right now, doesnt change that he is a great blues player.. and always will be..
he has just evolved his sound..
also, i may not have the greatest ears, but i do know that jason likes to bend his overblows.. also a possability, that harp wasnt at its best.. there are alot of things that could lead to errant overblows.. i dont think you can pick apart a live improved performance like that.. to pull out 2 notes in a complete peice and try to rip them isnt right.. as if little walter NEVER played a bad note in a live performance.. but jason's style IS those overblows.. so they didnt work for you.. the crowd loved it.. isnt that what really matters..
"My opinion is that you should back up your opinions with evidence to prove that you can do it better."
I don't see much of that on this or any other board. I don't see you living up to your own standards. In fact, I don't think you're being honest. If you were being honest you would recast your statement as, "My opinion is that I don't like your opinion so I want to make a rule that says you have to do X, Y and Z. I reserve the right to change my rule at any time in order to negate the validity of your opinion."
"Usually those who can't do something criticize it first and ask questions later. Again, just an opinion ;)"
I said I liked his playing except for the bits that stuck out because they stepped outside of the straight-ahead context and the pitch was awry. What is wrong with making that observation? Especially in the context of a thread started by Adam which states it, "will hopefully convince even Kingley that Jason can, in fact, play straight-ahead Chicago blues."
I think Jason sounds more natural at it than Howard Levy does. Jason did come from a very solid blues background and put his time in the woodshed studying how classic blues is played, he clearly feels very comfortable with it but is not afraid to throw in a new catchy twist as well
Last Edited by on Apr 04, 2010 8:05 AM
"So this video proves Ricci has excellent blues chops and also that OB/OD stuff doesn't really fit the genre."
I was not negating your opinion at all, simply putting the onus on you to prove your claims. And you attacking my honesty or twisting my words is just childish. If you post on a open forum be prepared to offer proof of what you say this video "proves". Otherwise, don't make such claims. I am not the one proving or disproving anything as I choose to keep an open mind about things. I think the correct term for you is "moldy fig".
BRAVO !! ---------- Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. - Charlie Parker
Here's a bit of a Jason Ricci story from me personally that he himself will tell you is true.
Well, many years ago, an old keyboard/accordion player friend of mine who I had worked with had asked me if he could give this person my phone number because he wanted to learn how to play and blues was important to him and so I gave permission to do so.
When I got a phone call from this guy, long distance calling from Maine (remember, the kind of long distance call plans they have on land lines (pre cellphone days for 99% of the population) didn't exist yet, and he introduced himself and kept asking me questions about everything from the instrument itself, gear, you name it, and this call had to be at least 2-3 hours long and every few minutes I had to remind him "Hey man, this is your dime and it's gonna be one steep long distance bill," but he insisted on keeping it going and I could see how eager he was to learn it and so we kept talking.
I hadn't thought about it for about a good 10 years until I was in a chat room that was hosted by a now defunct website called, simply enough, www.thebluessite.com, and the guest chatter was Jason.
Well, he went on and told me about this little thing from so long ago and I had, as I said forgotten all about it, and he told me that guy bugging me on the phone (LOL) was him!!!
He told me he never introduced himself when I had played at the old location of a blues club in Portland, ME called The Big Easy, and sometimes he had snuck in, but he was under age, and he used to listen to me and what I was doing intently just outside of the club, and he just totally blew my mind saying that.
Well, what this says is that he started out with learning the classic stuff but moved in other directions and that stuff is still a part of him, just like my listening to all other genres in my lifetime and learning what I could from all of them is clearly a part of me, so guys, just knock that crap off because the snobbiness is STUPIDITY!!!!!!!
Lots of musicians of all instruments learn different things yet remain true to their roots but they also forge their own thing as well and I know for a fact Jason most certainly listened to and respects that stuff and the goal for every player is to always sound like themselves no matter what.
I respect his playing enormously and for much of the time he uses the OB's, his intonation and articulation is usually very spot on and there are [plenty of players using that technique, just like with note bending, that is anything but that and I frankly can't listen to it at all.
Cool the damned testosterone and be civil, this is not Harp-L where this crap for a long time was too much the norm and more than a few of you act so stupid like some jerk has challenged your freaking manhood. GROW UP!!!!!! If you're gonna keep doing that, you make total jerks out of yourselves.
In certain ways, Jason in a way is kinda trying to be more like the Ray Charles of harmonica where you can't really define him and that's fine by me and this is coming from someone who considers himself largely more of a traditional blues player. Man, some of you sound so freaking immature it's sickening!!!
---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I think all humans are musical and the point of music should be to express yourself and find your voice that expresses YOU. Placing arbitrary and artifical limitations on oneself, and/or especially others, or trying to group everything into a "genre" is simply a bad idea if you want to find your own voice and express who you are through music. This is why we are sitting here talking about Jason Ricci, because he refuses to place these arbitrary limits that "OB/OD don't belong here" blah blah blah. Maybe the sound of OB/OD don't express who you are, that's great. Play what expresses you. There is no right or wrong except to say "this is right and this is wrong." And, my Dad died a long time ago.
Last Edited by on Apr 04, 2010 12:25 PM
Bob: This is what happens when people talk more than play! If these guys put their lips to their harps, they might someday make some good music that would make us smile instead of frown. I try to stay out of this kind of stuff, but wanted to tag onto your insightful post. Walter
PS: I am mixing songs from todays recording session and couldn't resist saying this. ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
This is a discussion board. This thread started with Adam expressing an opinion. The idea is to discuss. So people came in with their opinions. Because it's a discussion, the opinions don't have to all agree. That would be boring.
All of the later attacks on opinions, and analysis of who is "negative" and who is "a child" and who has the right to comment is just meta-commentary. Clearly, despite what is being said, a lot of you prefer agreement, and if you don't get agreement then you move on to attack opinions via meta-commentary.
(This meta-meta-commentary has been brought to you by someone who had the temerity to express an unpopular opinion and yank some short and sensitive chains).
I think it can sometimes be called over intellectuallizing. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Let's see if I got this right...Jason is using someone elses gear, maybe even someone elses harp not set up like exactly as he normally sets his up, and he is improvising a solo....he plays wonderfully but he hits a few dud overblows. And someone has got to point that out...man...! I just spent the last hour jamming along with a Jason video where he is playing 3rd position blues with crazy emotion...intense stuff. If you are like me (and I know I am)(old Bill Murray joke), no blues player, past or present is as exciting to listen to play blues as Jason is.
Jason is gonna be top notch in whichever and how many genres he so desires. Jason is an inovator. I have his last three CDs and I know all the songs aren't for everyone, but you can't deny the virtuosity of his playing. Jason shows his passion and feel for blues in this clip. Listen to the descend at :55 and tell me those overdraws and overblows are not right on.
no one disputes his solidity in harmonica history. jason's a badass pure and simple. If all we're dicsussing is the possibility of one or two off notes out of hundreds, nay thousands in that first vid. Its water on a ducks back. the argument, as I see it, is seemingly on whether or not OB/OD's are relevant to modern blues harp. I personally think that they are and encourage all of us to utilize all we can out of the instrument, in every genre of music.
no one disputes his solidity in harmonica history. jason's a badass pure and simple. If all we're dicsussing is the possibility of one or two off notes out of hundreds, nay thousands in that first vid. Its water on a ducks back. the argument, as I see it, is seemingly on whether or not OB/OD's are relevant to modern blues harp. I personally think that they are and encourage all of us to utilize all we can out of the instrument, in every genre of music.
Harpdude's post of Jason's Drifting and Drifting interpretation is just superlative. When some of these meteoric players slow down a little I am so profoundly arrested by the organic verve of it. Damn. ---------- Myspace: dennis moriarty
