geordiebluesman
291 posts
Apr 01, 2010
2:40 AM
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Hi Harpers, i was wandering if any of you guys who have been through the early intermediate stage have found yourselves traped in the draw/ blow hell?
What i mean by that is i have got into the habit of playing in a style which constantly uses draw notes followed by blow notes so that i never get winded or full up.
The problem with this is it doesnt make for a very authentic Chicago style sound and thats what i want.
I cant seem to break this habit and i find it limits my improvisation coz i keep falling back into the same old riff patterns just sawing away in and out over and over again till i get so pissed off with myself that i want to explode!
So i was wandering if you guys could tell me about how you got out of this rut, how you broke the draw blow habit,how you moved on to a more genuine sounding style coz im starting to get discouraged.
Cheers Geordie
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2010 5:22 AM
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LeeEdwards
45 posts
Apr 01, 2010
3:25 AM
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I believe this rut would be over as soon as you intensively focus on putting the music/melody before anything else.
Actively listen to a wide variety of music, spend time focusing on scales and become really familiar with where your notes lie on the harp.
Work on being able to hum a lick or run and then play it.Then work on being able to think of a lick or run and start playing it even before your brain knows where it's going to end.
If you work on those things you will only be drawing and blowing as is necessary to produce the notes required by your thought process and you'll learn to regulate your air volume around the music so that the phrasing doesn't suffer.
The music therefore becomes the priority and not your breathing.
Hope this helps.
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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tookatooka
1323 posts
Apr 01, 2010
3:49 AM
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Excellent question Geordiebluesman. It was something that I had a nagging feeling about but wasn't sure if it was a problem or just me.
LeeEdwards has made a good suggestion and I will follow this thread with interest as I also suffered from the same old in out riff routine too and need to crack this one in order to make progress.
Thanks for bringing it up.
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Old Dog
16 posts
Apr 01, 2010
5:45 AM
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I'm also stuck in the ozone when it comes to improvising, and Lee Edward's advice seems like just the ticket. Which scales are most important? I know I should learn them all, but my brain can only soak up so much at one time!
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I used to be young and foolish. Now I'm not so young.
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7LimitJI
73 posts
Apr 01, 2010
6:19 AM
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Pick a track you really like with lots of harp.
Learn it note for note.
Take the song and break it down into manageable phrases.
Take your time and work on it maybe only one bar at a time till you can play it.
When you learn one part and move onto the next. String the parts you've learned together till you've got the whole song/solo.
Learning this way develops your ear,your playing, your tone. Also you're never in a rut as you're constantly playing new stuff.
After a while learning like this, these phrases you've learnt will appear when improvising over different songs in many different forms and will become your own.
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The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
Those Dangerous Gentlemens Myspace
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2010 6:28 AM
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LeeEdwards
48 posts
Apr 01, 2010
6:40 AM
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"Which scales are most important? I know I should learn them all, but my brain can only soak up so much at one time!"
I'm going to talk in terms of C harp.
The first position major scale is always a good starting point. From 1blow all the way to the 10blow and back. You'll have to nail the 2 and 3 draw whole step bends in the bottom octave to do this, and the half step 10 blow bend.
Then using the same blow drow pattern start your scale on the 2draw and you'll almost be playing a G Major scale. What you are actually playing is the mixolydian mode of C major. The only note that doesn't belong to the G Major scale is F, the flat 7th.
If you replace the 2 draw whole step bend with a half step bend, the 5 draw with a 5 OB and play the 9 blow bend in place of the 9 draw you will get F# (Major 7th) instead of F and a complete G major scale.
Here's an ear training related exercise. Play the lowest note of the harp followed by the highest. Now sing or hum one note, any note. Then quickly put the harp to your lips and see if you can play the same note first time. Chances are you'll be off, but the more this exercise is practiced the more accurate you'll become at being able to hear or think of a melody and then replicate it. The best way to practice this is with another musician and their instrument or if you have a piano/keyboard get a friend or relative to randomly hit keys without you looking and you have to hit the same notes.
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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thescip
3 posts
Apr 01, 2010
6:46 AM
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I lurk alot around here and don't post very much. I consider myself an intermediate player as well.
I was also stuck in the same blow/draw rut for a while, which is why this post struck a chord with me.
I started doing basically what 7limit said to do. Learn songs and play them note for note. Only I haven't been limiting myself to just harp stuff. I've been using a lot of non-harp songs, taking the guitar part of the song and playing on the harp. Using the same method 7limit describes, breaking the song down and learning parts of it until I can play the whole song.
Doing this has really opened up the harp for me in the last month. I have really turned a corner in my playing and I feel like this has been the biggest help.
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Johnster
55 posts
Apr 01, 2010
6:54 AM
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I was in the same trap and managed to get myself out of it.
I used the same methodology mentioned, learn the melody, play it through over and over.
Also practice the Blues scale, the only blow is the 4 hole or the 3 hole as an alternate for 2 draw. Think when your playing about only using 4 or 3 when you need to blow or breathe out.
It was a hard habit to break, I blamed it's creatoin on starting to play harp using the "Dave Harp" method, he teaches breathing patterns, and most are in-out patterns,and like all habits once they are there they are hard to quit.
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captainbliss
15 posts
Apr 01, 2010
7:15 AM
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How to break the draw / blow habit?
Many good thoughts here already, to which one might add...
1. Learn to play tunes and vocal lines. Music / harp tab is only a search engine away. Build a repertoire of songs / pieces.
2. Many harp players get fixated on riffs and licks (and hence stuck in their playing). Learn to play bass lines and chord patterns, too.
3. Practice playing with no blow notes at all! Off the top of my head, here are a few ideas: (all numbers are draw holes, ' is half-step bend, '' is full-step bend, fiddle around with the timing until it sounds right)
(a) 5 4 4' 3' 2
(b) 1 2'' 2 3' 2
(c) 4' 4 5 3' 2
etc...
EDIT: 4. Learning about chord progressions and chord tones may be of help, too.
ANOTHER EDIT: Using long notes and focusing on tone and texture (tremolo, vibrato, etc) may also help.
xxx
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2010 7:35 AM
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Joch230
60 posts
Apr 01, 2010
7:29 AM
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Learning to improvise is like learning a language. Think of notes as letters....scales as learning your abc's. Riffs can be words and maybe phrases are sentences. Learn riffs or phrases thinking what chord your are playing over. Some riffs will work over the IV chord, some are turnaround licks, etc. After a while, you will be able to put the licks in different order, do different variations, etc and create a whole solo. Steal licks from guitar players or horn players instead of just leaning other harp players chops. Eventually, you will learn the instrument enough where you can play what's humming in your head. Jamming with other players who play other instruments is great. Do a call and response exercise where, say the guitar player plays a lick and you try to repeat it...maybe with a slight variation. Have fun with it...!
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2010 7:29 AM
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Old Dog
17 posts
Apr 01, 2010
7:46 AM
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Thanks to all...much good info here.
@ Lee Edwards... my real first and middle name is Edward Lee!
@ Jock230...I recently started lessons with a fellow named Tim Gartland, who has a new book entitled "Talking Harmonica". (He's a very good teacher, I'm just looking for all the help I can get.)
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I used to be young and foolish. Now I'm not so young.
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hvyj
250 posts
Apr 01, 2010
8:07 AM
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All kinds of great advice here. But, to keep it simple, you can start by just learning the First Position do-re-mi sale in the middle register; B4 D4 B5 D5 B6 D6 D7 B7 and BE SURE to get the breath shift between D6 and D7 correct every time. That's an easy way to start to train yourself to break out of the blow draw blow draw pattern.
Then learn the Third Position minor pentatonic scale in the middle octave: D4 D5 B6 D6 B7 D8. These are very easy scales to play and will get you focusing on controlling your breath pattern without being too difficult.
Then you can go on from there and play some nonsense random patterns, blow blow draw draw, blow draw draw, blow blow draw, etc. just to get yourself used to not playing purely blow draw, and then go on to tackle some of the more complicated scales and riffs.
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congaron
751 posts
Apr 01, 2010
1:47 PM
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Sometimes I play a phrase, then go low and chug a rhythm that contains the blow chord which I blow mostly through the harp, but some over the top so I get all the air out..then i go back and do a phrase. Or I may do a blow note heavy lick in the upper octave as I breathe back out.
The length of the phrases you can do should be getting longer as you get your breath control. If it isn't, you may be using too much air. Usually the mix of blow and draw notes in a bluesy lick or phrase is sufficient to keep you from getting winded unless you are drawing in too hard...since there are usually more draw notes and draw bends..at least in cross harp. A little hyperventilated would be a good sign you are drawing in harder than you need to. Don't forget to breathe out through the harp. Besides, it even sounds cool.
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2010 1:48 PM
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nacoran
1537 posts
Apr 01, 2010
3:40 PM
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Good advice on here. The two things I'd add would is learn when to take pauses. Pauses sound good in the music, and they also give you a chance to break the blow/draw cycle by sneaking a breath or exhale (and remember, sometimes it's good to go into a riff with no breath if your going to do a bunch of draw notes. I came from a background of playing the baritone tuba and I had to completely relearn how to think about breathing.)
The other thing is to work on your breath control. It's good to always think about how much breath you'll need a few notes or bars ahead, but breath control will let you stretch that time out. In choir we used to do a warm-up exercise where we just breathed out making a hissing noise and saw how long we could make that one breath last using good diaphragm control. Back when I was in shape I could go almost a minute. You could adapt the same technique to harp, alternating between long blows and long draws. The longer you can go the more confident you'll feel playing long runs of one or the other.
Adam also had a video about leaking air on purpose by loosening your lip seal so that you can sneak more air in or out when you need to prepare for long runs of draws or blows.
Then there is circular breathing, which I've only managed to pull off successfully once, but I can't rub my tummy and pat my head either. It did keep me from passing out though! There are some good videos on YouTube on doing that. It may not get you out of the rut by itself, but it may help you think more about planning whether you are going to be blowing or drawing ahead and that may help get you out of the rut.
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Nate
Facebook
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bluemoose
157 posts
Apr 01, 2010
5:01 PM
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When playing in second position think of the chord changes (I-IV-V) as moving from 2nd position to 1st to 3rd position (C harp G-C-D) and adjust your breathing patterns and where you are on the harp to that.
Not firm rules but helps open you up.
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2010 5:02 PM
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oldwailer
1164 posts
Apr 01, 2010
5:15 PM
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I like to get Doc Gussows lessons--not the YT ones so much--but the ones he sells for a few bucks with tablature you can print out--learning some of those note for note will break you of too much blowing--the Doc will NEVER blow a note he could suck--and I always find it really does sound better to do it his way.
I don't really learn them all that well--just get the gist of them, then go off and do my own stuff--but it does tend to break those in/out patterns that all start to sound like Oh, Suzanna! Over and over and over--because it puts new ideas into your playing. . .
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MichaelAndrewLo
261 posts
Apr 01, 2010
7:26 PM
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get "blues saxophone" by dennis taylor and learn those licks by heart. Practice one thing until you can play it in your sleep. That will bring exponential growth in your playing and give you many new ideas. Most people are unwilling to stick with one thing until it is mastered and is why most people never get exponentially better over time. That is the key. Don't overwhelm yourself with all you need to learn. Practice one Gussow vid for 3 months. Try it, see what happens.
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Kyzer Sosa
261 posts
Apr 02, 2010
12:08 AM
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Im with MAL on this one. Drill that sumvabitch till you come. there are a couple of tunes I could play paralyzed from the neck down without question...
Im working on one now, PT Gazell's version of The Thumb. Ive been listening to it every day for three weeks, two, three, a dozen times a day. The tempo is slightly faster than my abilities, so i audacity'd it down by 15% to be in my range. And im 90% there in hopes of pulling it out of my pocket come Hill Country time.
piece by piece, bar by bar, i will conquer it.
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Kyzer's Travels
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geordiebluesman
292 posts
Apr 02, 2010
3:10 AM
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Thanks for all the responses chaps it is most gratifying to receive so much great advice and also nice to know that this appears to be quite a common problem for the early intermediate player.
It looks like the answer lies in firmer discipline and the application of the basics, coupled with a determination to stick with things till they are fully absorbed, i must admit that this is my weakness because i get easily distracted, often by my own creativity, my mind never stops and sometimes that is more of a hinderance than a help
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2010 3:11 AM
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ricanefan
56 posts
Apr 02, 2010
6:47 AM
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A little tip to help you get there: supplement your blow/draw with breathing through your nose. If you're playing a section of a song that's heavy on the draws (common in blues), close the nose on the draws, and exhale through your nose while playing blow notes. If you run across a song that has sections heavy on blow notes, do the opposite (supplement your inhale with your nose, exhale only through the harp).
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LeeEdwards
51 posts
Apr 02, 2010
7:30 AM
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@ricanefan - I'm not convinced that what you suggest would create anything positive. All I can see at the end of that road is inefficient air management leading to very poor tone. Maybe I misunderstood. If so please explain further.
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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captainbliss
18 posts
Apr 02, 2010
9:52 AM
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@LeeEdwards (great vids on your site, BTW):
I think ricanefan is onto something.
Two examples:
1. (2nd pos) A Fox Chase pattern (B3 D123). Letting some air out of the nose during the B3 compensates for the the fact that you're taking in more air on the D123 and allows you to keep the air flow balanced (and chug indefinitely!).
2. (2nd pos) A Mannish Boy-esque riff (D12 B4 B3 D3' D2 D12 D2 D12 D2). Again, breathing out through the nose on the B4 and B3 gives you enough air to keep the D12 -> D2 tongue slap going / build intensity on it.
Well, it works for me!
xxx
PS off topic, I know. Sorry!
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LeeEdwards
54 posts
Apr 02, 2010
10:32 AM
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@captainbliss - thanks for the comment about the site.
I suppose the breathing through the nose is going to be one of those 'if it works for you, do it' kind of things.
For chugging patterns I tend to regulate by relaxing my embouchure on the blow and allowing air to escape either through more holes or above and below the harp.
For the mannish boy thing I normally start with the D2, then tongue slap B4 then regulate or prepare for a raunchy D3'(bit of D4 thrown in for filthiness) by just removing the tongue from the comb to play B234.
My point of view comes from when I teach absolute beginners. Those that draw a single note whilst simultaneously breathing in through their nose always sound very feeble because they don't build that essential back pressure and they always fill their lungs much too quickly. Once a clothes peg is placed on their nose the tone improves and they can sustain a note for a much longer duration. I believe the more you have to regulate the more your phrasing suffers. Your phrasing becomes secondary to breathing. Developing efficiency with lung capacity allows you to play for longer periods without regulating. Then the phrasing can come first and you regulate in between. Just the way I see it from my point of view.
Even if it does work as a technique for some though, I still don't see how it'll break geordie's rut.
The rut geordie is in sounds as if he's getting tired of everything he plays sounding the same. Same notes organised into the same patterns always giving the same results.
Geordie we're all going to get you out of your slump.
Best way to stop playing all the same things....Learn to play different things.
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2010 10:51 AM
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Blown Out Reed
92 posts
Apr 02, 2010
11:12 AM
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When i get in a rut
I learn a new phrase then apply it to a chorus form (ex AAB)
and varying it slightly each time I play thru a chorus
P.S
If you get upset I suggest stopping and taking a deep in and out breath
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geordiebluesman
295 posts
Apr 02, 2010
11:30 AM
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Hi Harpers, once again thanks for all the top tips, it has been suggested by a few of you that i learn something new to break out of my Blow/Draw habit so how about a few song suggestions, what does anyone think would be a great song to concentrate on and master to push my playing into a more bluesy chicago style?
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LeeEdwards
55 posts
Apr 02, 2010
11:55 AM
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@geordiebluesman - When I say to learn something new I mean COMPLETELY new.
Try and break EVERY familiar routine that contributed to your rut in the first place. For example:
If you regularly practice in the morning...Try practicing in the evening instead.
If there is a particular key harp that you always use...Try choosing a different key harp.
If you always practice in the same locations...Try somewhere new.
If you always tend to listen to harp players...Try not listening to harp players.
If you always listen to blues...Try not listening to blues.
In the end it doesn't matter what piece of music you choose Jazz, Funk, Classical, Latin etc. or if you've never heard it before. All that matters is that it is unfamiliar to you. That's the challenge. When you rise to it and conquer it you will have learned lots. Then go back to playing blues and you'll find yourself playing with a fresh approach.
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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captainbliss
20 posts
Apr 02, 2010
12:58 PM
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@georgiebluesman:
/what does anyone think would be a great song to concentrate on and master to push my playing into a more bluesy chicago style?/
1. Big Walter's "Easy,"
2. some Slim Harpo - learn his parts and play along.
Another thought: if you're keen to get out of a rut and you can afford it, hire yourself a teacher!
Or sign up to something like David Barrett's online education site at bluesharmonica.com (disclaimer: I have no affiliation with the man, I just checked some of the videos out and they look really, REALLY good.)
EDIT: or (as someone may well have suggested earlier in this thread), pick one of our host's video lessons and study it. A lot.
@LeeEdwards: great suggestions!
xxx
Last Edited by on Apr 02, 2010 1:06 PM
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LeeEdwards
56 posts
Apr 02, 2010
4:05 PM
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Captainbliss' suggestion about hiring a teacher is also a very good one. A good teacher should be able to remain objective and pick out areas that you need to strengthen. That's one thing you will never get from a book or video - appropriate, instant feedback.
One last suggestion from me.
Sometimes you just need to put the harp down for a week or two and just listen, I mean REALLY listen, to a wide variety of music. Only pick up the harp again when you feel so passionate about the instrument that you feel as if you'll burst if you don't play it. Then, and only then, pick up the harp and unleash all your creative energies.
This has turned into one hell of a thread!
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"You will never get every possible thing out of an instrument, but the instrument will get every possible thing out of you" - Ray Charles.
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ricanefan
57 posts
Apr 02, 2010
10:20 PM
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Lee...
Perhaps not well explained. Primary breathing always through the harp. I supplement that secondarily through the nose only to ease the overtaxation of my lungs when the in/out is not so balanced. For me, it's mostly an exhaling aide...
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