Just heard Sugar Blue's version of "Messin' With the Kid" from his latest album, THRESHOLD. I'd encourage everybody to purchase at least this tune on iTunes, if not the entire album. Sugar's virtues are in full display. He's not really doing anything new--for him, I mean. His speed is dazzling, but it's not quite so dazzling in the face of the sort of stuff Jason Ricci is doing. His licks are mostly ones that he's used on previous recordings. That's OK. Sonny Boy Williamson did the same thing. Sugar is no longer the voice of the harmonica future. He's the voice of where we are and where we've been for the past couple of decades, as black popular music has churned all around us, ignored by most of the other harpists in the contemporary blues scene. Our ears are finally catching up to him.
He's always had incredible bands--much more in a funk/fusion bag than a traditional Chicago groove--and the band on this cut is as good as any of them. They assemble and integrate a whole post-James Brown funky-soul instrumental pallette and use it to make the blues new, or at least unmistakeably contemporary, if not futuristic. In thirty years, they'll be considered "traditionalist."
The harmonies are exciting. Sugar does what ALL the best harp players have done down through the ages: he takes a familiar riff--in this case, the descending riff that opens and threads its way through "Messin'"--and shuffles it up just enough to make it sound new without losing any of the flavor. Little Walter would be proud. He'd be envious, in fact. Sugar is doing exactly what Walter did: listening to the music going on all around him, not just "blues," and selecting and heightening certain elements in it to come up with a new blues vision. Once you hear Sugar's version of "Messin' With the Kid," it's impossible to hear Junior Wells' version the same way. It has now been updated, powerfully, as has the entire tradition. That's a good thing.
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2010 8:11 PM
I think I'm the yang to your yin Adam.;o) I don't like anything about Sugar Blue's version. The tone on both the guitar solo and harp suck. To my ear the harp sounds terrible. It may be technically good playing and fast, but the actual sound ?
"Once you hear Sugar's version of "Messin' With the Kid," it's impossible to hear Junior Wells' version the same way." Its never been one of my favourites but............ I now realise how good the original is.!
7Limit JI: I agree with you Junior, buddy and is that Jimmy Johnson are cooking! the whole band is strutting their stuff. I would not want to follow that song! Junior Wells harp playing was the opposite of todays approach. His playing was about what he didn't play. Short burst that ended with his energy being the high note, not his harp note. An instrument is like a crutch. It helps you get your music out, but to be able to get it out without one is the way to go. Junior goes beyond harp playing, the highest form of expression. Todays approach is about what and how much you play and uses the crutch of the harp way too much to try and convey ones inner message. Tone, speed, tons of notes is the thing today instead of the non instrument aproach of getting the message out the old guys used. Juniors presence was his main instrument.
What most don't realize is there is still a ton of stuff to be explored in the simple playing of guys like Junior. Our culture today is about bulldozing throught to new ground all the time. Subtleties are not valued much anymore. We live in a world of endless distractions, noise, and rushing. They say art reflects the times, so I guess todays popular fast style of harp playing is saying something, much like rap is reflective of the hopelessness that plauges so many inner city kids.
It will take a real effort to stop this trend in our culture. It will only keep amping up if left to itself. A renisance will take place at some point where people simplify and go back to exploring things like juniors way of doing music. There is a wise old saying that says something like "the joy of life lies in the simple things".
Todays players in general don't get this and that piece of the puzzle is missing. They spew notes and technical wizzardry, but lack an overall presence that guys like junior had. I have said this before, the old blues guys were oozing music on and off the stage. It was their presence that was the thing that made them great. The wolf is another harp player of this vien. All the blues greats had that card. It was what they didn't play and thier presence. That combination needs to be seen live. Again, if you never sat onstage with guys like Junior (I can tell you he was great!) or sat up close and experienced his playing, these videos will not give you the whole picture. I get the whole picture because I was physcially there and the video triggers those memories. Walter
to clarify this better maybe, check this out. Guys like clapton can run circles around the old blues greats, but when they were onstage together, claptons playing was like a little kid making noise compared to when somebody like SBWII hit a few notes on his harp. Make sense? Let yourself come out in your playing. Let it strut and shine. Junior is kings ransom example of this.
---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
I gotta put my 2 cents in here....NEW does not equal SUCK. Sugar does not stay on the bottom 4 holes...he explores the hole instrument. We are all accustomed to hear players on the "bottom half". That is where we reference "tone". Playing in the higher notes, that "tone" is impossible to attain. Although I prefer the traditional style of playing....I don't think the players of the more modern styles are wrong. They are just different. My Mom and Dad grew up on The big Band sound, Perry Como and Frank Sinatra. They thought that my music...The Beatles, Stones, CSNY were terrible. History proved my parents wrong....The Beatles were just...different. ---------- Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. - Charlie Parker
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2010 8:25 AM
pharpo: I agree the new players aren't wrong. It is just what turns you on. Sugar Blue never did anything for me and still doesn't. I support everyone persuing their passions! That makes life real. It would be a boring life if everyone liked the same thing. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year. " No one can control anyone, but anyone can let someone control them"
@ Pharpo "We are all accustomed to hear players on the "bottom half". That is where we reference "tone". Playing in the higher notes, that "tone" is impossible to attain."
I disagree.Sugar blue is using way too much chorus or some other effect, probably into a transistor amp. The tone is thin and the distortion not smooth. I already said it is technically good,just to my ear sounds bad.
Jason Ricci is a modern player with good tone.He doesn't overuse the effects(most of the time) and uses a tube amp for creamy distortion. His high end runs sound way better than Sugar Blues.
The last time I saw him play he used a Mesa Boogie Tweed - modeled after the Fender Bassman. It uses 12AX7 and 6L6 tubes. That amp is also evident in many of his videos.
I'm not sure what effects he uses though. ---------- Music is your own experience, your own thoughts, your wisdom. If you don't live it, it won't come out of your horn. They teach you there's a boundary line to music. But, man, there's no boundary line to art. - Charlie Parker
I realize I'm sounding like a broken record here, so I'll make my point one more time: there's no such thing as "good tone" on the harmonica. There are many sorts of good and soulful sounds. "Tone" is an historically conditioned concept. Any student of jazz, for example, knows that the sort of heavy vibrato that Sidney Bechet employed, for example, was considered the worst sort of hamfat silliness when Mile Davis's vibrato-less cool sound ruled the roost.
Both sounds were great, in fact. Both were entirely valid. The people who judged Bechet's sound far superior to Miles's, or Bird's--the traditionalists of the period--were missing the point, as were the hip modernists who thought Bechet's vibrato was silly, corny, etc.
Now, in hindsight, jazz historians recognize that each historical moment has its traditionalists and its modernists, its "old fashioned" sounds and its "too new" sounds. Bechet, Bird, and Miles are each recognized by the mass of jazz aficionados as the brilliant artists they were.
But that process takes time. I don't mind being ahead of the curve on Sugar Blue. And I don't mind that some here, preferring Bechet, would rather dismiss Bird and Miles than understand them. It's always been that way.
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2010 10:14 AM
Son of Dave is doing exactly what Waltertore calls for: simplifying. I like what he's doing. Simple can be good.
But it's also true that we live in a very fast-paced and complex world. At least of a few of our best artists--including our best blues harmonica players--should be striving to respond authentically to that fast pace and complexity. Sugar Blue does that. Fast and complex can be good.
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2010 10:17 AM
sounds like junk to me. one thing ill say is the guitar and harp are suited for each other but what they are playing i dont get it. i dont hear it and i dont think this in any way is something that little walter would like. the junior version of this song is great.in this the high noted phrases dont make sense they sound like notes not even in a key,hey look see how fast i can play, thats all. please dont compare this to charlie parker or john coltrane ,they had taste. this is junk and i hope this is not where the blues harmonica is headed. muddy waters said you can't change the blues but so much or its not blues any more, all you can do is take up the road a little bit. im sorry this sounds like the improvisation is built on mistakes.well thats my taste and it is subjective.The guitar payer is playing frets and the harp is playing holes , they are not playing music.
Although I can appreciate Sugar Blues exemplary skills on the harmonica, I have to say that his music for the most part just leaves me cold.
The harmonica parts he has played over the years as a sideman are much better to my ears than his own releases. Of course this is only my opinion.
With regards to this particular cover. I have to agree with Walter, 7LimitJI and Alleycatjoe. To my ear it's a very poor rendition of a killer song. Although I can see why some people would like it.
Great funky version of this tune. Nice syncopation in riff. Harmonica sounds good and this tone is good for this tune. If you think, it's too thin, note that it's pretty high Eb harmonica.
This arrangement of "Messin' w/ The Kid" was first recorded by SB on an album titled "Hot Sauce Boss" that was recorded for a Japanese label but never released. Sound samples from it used to be on SB's website before Code Blue was recorded.
Last couple of times i saw SB he was playing into a Mesa Boogie with no effects except his wireless receiver and the on board reverb. I do not hear any effects on this recording.
Super sophisticated playing IMHO. True, it does not sound the way blues were played on the harmonica 50 years ago, but that's the point--it's the 21st century and the blues are not dead, so why should they be embalmed?
SB's use of well placed extension tones from blues scale chords is musically sophisticated and, judging from some of the comments posted here, not widely recognized or understood for what it is. It's not just a bunch fast runs made up from pattern playing (like some of John Poppers's stuff is). The note selection on SB's fast runs is very sophisticated and bears a tight relationship to the chords structure.
Great musical interpretation of an old tune by a modern master musician.
To me if it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, quacks like duck. No matter how many people tell me its a swan, its still a duck to me. ---------- The Harpist formerly known as Doggycam
@7LimitJI: If you don't like it, you don't like it. There's no accounting for taste (mine or yours). But, objectively speaking, one cannot validly say that it is poor playing or musically deficient.
SB's playing can be excessive at times, and may not sound appealing to everyone. Everyone may not like it, and that's fine. But it's not poor musicianship.
I personally happen to love both what Junior is doing in the 1978 version of the song and what his band is doing, but here's the funny thing: in 1978, blues journalists were DERIDING Junior for precisely what he's doing in this video! They claimed that he had left the blues behind out of a mistaken desire to remanufacture himself into James Brown.
Those blues journalists were traditionalists. They just didn't get it. They didn't like what he was doing.
They came around eventually.
What's notable about both versions--Sugar Blue's and Junior's--is the amazing funky intensity of their backing bands. That's something that I find lacking in today's backward-looking blues. Kim Wilson, Mark Hummel: they're simply not interested, as far as I can tell, in developments within black music after 1960 or so. (Well, they'll allow a bit of soul vocalizing to work its way in. But a big fat NO! to high-energy funk, much less disco and hip-hop.) This differentiates them from, for example, James Cotton, who always brought monstrously funky ensembles out on the road. Noel Neal on bass! Incredible stuff.
There's certainly room for differing tastes. You'll note that Junior Wells sits in my Top 10 and Sugar Blue sits in my Second 10 all time list. I try to cultivate the broadest possible taste within the blues harmonica spectrum, finding reasons to like various sorts of playing. At the same time, I put a premium on players who engage with the currents of their own time, and who try to honor the continuing imperative to make it new within the arena of an instrument and an idiom that clearly have one foot planted powerfully (and rightfully) in tradition and another foot planted in modernity. Little Walter is the paradigmatic modernist here. I think he'd be intrigued by Junior's stage persona and the badass band he's fronting, but I don't think he'd find much of value in Junior's acoustic stylings in front of that band. (Here he and I would actually disagree.) He'd be fascinated, on the other hand, by Sugar Blue's weird new take on amplified blues harmonica melodic improvisation. He might not like it, but he'd certainly understand the spirit behind it.
BTW: The comparison of Sugar Blue with Charlie Parker is especially apt for a particular reason, one that hvyj discusses: Bird's great innovation was playing the higher harmonics of the changes: not the root/third/fifth/seventh, but the ninths, elevenths, and thirteenths. This is exactly what Sugar Blue does. He attacks the fourths in the upper octave--which become, over dominant seventh chords, elevenths--and he does so in a deliberate way. That's part of his distinctive sound. He does the same thing with the ninths: hits and or lingers on the 6 and 10 draw, cross harp. The 6 draw is a somewhat more familiar move, but SB again uses these notes so that they convey the flavor of higher harmonics. He's been doing this since the late 70s; he was doing it as a sideman with Brownie McGhee and Louisiana Red on the BLUES IS TRUTH album. It's something he's added to the blues harp idiom.
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2010 4:02 PM
Little Walter died in 1968. Nothing he recorded in the sixties was anything particularly modern sounding. In fact, in his recordings it seemed like he was heading back to his roots.
Junior Wells had been doing funky stuff since the early 60's. Buddy Guy was too. If Little Walter had demonstrated any interest in this sort of "updated" sound, he probably could have incorporated it into his music as it was hardly new during that latter portion of his life.
In those recordings during the Chicago Blues Festival in 1967, Little Walter was fronting a straight Chicago Blues band with Blues guys, not rock guys. They were Blues guys. Guys that toured with Magic Slim and Muddy Waters. Traditional Blues guys. The most modern tune of that set was the Watermelon Man, which was a pretty standard tune in Blues band sets in Chicago.
You're right about late Little Walter. He was beat-up, tired, and burnt out. His version of "Watermelon Man" sucks. But I don't hold that against him.
Most players tend to head back to their roots as they get older.
When I talk about how Little Walter would have responded to the Junior Wells of the late 1970s, I'm speaking about the innovative younger Little Walter of the 1950-1960 period. Unfortunately, he died ten years before the Junior Wells clip under discussion.
Last Edited by on Mar 30, 2010 8:39 PM
Man, does it suck. You can hear him gibbering to the band just before the guitar solo starts. If that isn't the sound of a man who'd drunk himself stupid, I dunno... -------------------- Murray. The smartist formerly known as Elwood.
I saw sugar live last fall. It was amazing with no qualifications whatsoever.
Tone: why do you think he plays with the fx rig that he does? That might be more useful than 'I don't like the tone.' While I would not choose the fx that sugar does, I understand why he uses the ones he does.
Also: A word about what y'all call "look how many notes I can play..."
1) Subtle touches are there. Sugar directs the harmonic motion with all sorts of cool hooks, turnarounds, and bits of chromatic runs that I find cool. Being sneaky with rhythm is just one touch that is something junior did nicely, and Sugar does not emphasize alot. But there are other ways of being subtle.
2) Many people establish careers by being able to play with virtuosity.
3) Is there any other instrument where someone's quality is judged on how little they play? You would think that would only happen if the instrument were one that sounded terrible. Here you go johhny, this is a saxophone, don't play too much, you'll go blind!
4) Music is about expressing your soul. Some of us have the soul of a bumble bee!
On the other hand, I would like to see more dynamic contrast on Sugar's recordings.
Sugar Blue I think is very inventive and a master of the upper register even without overdraws. Guys like Norton, and Madcat and Sugar Blue can definitely bring it without OB/OD
"Most players tend to head back to their roots as they get older. "
Surely you can't seriously be applying this to Little Walter Jacobs.
Walter was only 37 years old when he died and would have hardly been at the end of his career had he lived. His death was accidental and caused supposedly by injuries sustained in a fight which led to a coronary thrombosis.
He obviously had a drink problem, but then again so many musicians have had (do have) addiction problems of one sort or another. They often resolve these and then carry on being as creative if not more than previously in their careers.
Joe makes a good point about Walter and how he could of easily incorporated that "new" sound into his if he so wished. Maybe Walter was simply more interested in playing what he perceived as blues rather than the "new" sound.
Even at the time of his death he was still seen as at the top of the tree in the harmonica world. He was also still able to run rings around most players. Which isn't too bad for a guy who was "beat-up, tired and burnt out".
thanks adam, always good to hear a new take on what is now an old standard. i would not expect an active touring musician like Sugar Blue to play a song like this without a distinctive twist like changing the timing of the hook.
I know this forum is "modern blues harmonica" but I think sometimes as harp players we get way to harp-centric about everything... Sugar Blue is certainly an astonishing harp player, but does this cut of “Messin…” sound particularly modern? To my ears and experience, it sounds like it has both feet firmly planted in a decades-old jazz/funk rock fusion sound— it’s almost more retro-sounding than the Junior Wells clip, and its appeal, I think, lies in how much you like that genre.. Technically brilliant players, no doubt, although the guitarist has worn out his copy of Jeff Beck’s Blow by Blow and plays in a style/ tone so similar to Sugar that he kind of deflates the power of his harp solo until it modulates (excuse my ignorance, is that the correct term?) at around 3:30. I think a big success in the Jason Ricci “Modern Sound” (besides his passion and technical ability of course) is that the guitarist in his band is a different sort of player than him…Ricci gets to play that Joe Satrriani guitar-style wizard in that band and the guitarist has his own, actually more traditional style, both of which are equally gritty and exciting—they play well off each other. I think what the Junior Wells’ guitarist is playing is certainly simpler but really more exciting than either solo on the Sugar Blue clip. When I listen to the Sugar Blue Clip I can't help but have a vision of guys in the band with digital watches, tight white bell bottoms, sleeveless teal-colored shirts made out of a shiny fabric, and perhaps a “key-tar” on stage. Sort of a Steely Dan, Spyro Gyra, SNL Band kind of thing. Pretend it’s a monster synth/keyboard player and not a harmonica and it sounds as dated in its own way as any Mark Hummel chromatic George Smith-style shuffle. I enjoy the Wells clip more but that probably has more to do with the power of Junior Wells as a performer more than anything to do with harp playing. He sold the song to me. I don’t know what the future of blues is…maybe what Tom Waits is doing these days? Some of the hip hop mashups that the Fat Possum label does with old blues guys? Paul Reddick’s solo stuff? I dunno...but I am listening, keeping my ears open. I’m a first time poster and lurked for a couple of weeks…I’m a weekend warrior harp player who plays in a roots rock style band that lays blues only peripherally, so this is just my two cents, but a great discussion. I think I am going to learn a lot from this great forum. Thanks.
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2010 2:39 PM
Unfortunately, we will never know what Little Walter would have done after 1968. It's very possible that he may never have achieved "stardom" again. He may have had the same degree of commercial success as Muddy Waters or he could have struggled hustling and playing $25 a night gigs around Chicago.
The guitarists in the Junior Wells videos are Buddy Guy and Jimmy Johnson. Buddy Guy has been a huge influence on guitarists. Jimmy Johnson is also very influential, but is under-appreciated outside hardcore Chicago Blues fans. Most of what makes that Junior Wells video so great is the rhythm section of Dave Myers and Odie Payne. They set a killer groove and everything floats on top of it.
I've always thought Blue's version of Messin' With The Kid was one of his strongest tunes. As much as I like Sugar Blue's version, I really dig Junior's performance more. It's what I grew up seeing. It hits me right in the heart.
To me, the version by Junior is the whole package. Fabulous groove. The band is ultra tight. The guitar work by Jimmy Johnson is stellar as is Buddy Guy's. Junior's vocals seal the deal. I thought Junior was a very soulful singer and his harp playing was always deceptively simple. Very few people can play like Junior Wells.
i remember when john popper showed up. i thought,' what's new? sugar blue, norton buffalo, and in country- charlie mcCoy have been playing fast for years.' one day i saw a music mag with sugar and popper on the cover. they did a double interview. i shook my head and said, "i knew sugar influenced popper!!" so..whether you love or hate popper-you can thank sugar blue. FWIW. i love sugars short solo work on the rolling stones song 'miss you'. massive!!
can't stand a single popper song.
violinist niccolo paginini(did i spelll that right?) was also blessed with the gift of extreme speed. at that time, people thought he was a demon. but today......?
Last Edited by on Mar 31, 2010 9:22 PM
I do what I do, you do what you do, I have no right to Judge anyone and the Ultimate Judge are the butts in the seat and the people who buy the art. If you don't like something don't listen. If you have a different interpretation, do it and put it out to the world. I've made people in bars happy to hear what I play, I know this by their responses. And I'm sure people have said this ain't for me and went somewhere else. I've listened to Sugar Blue before and appreciated it at the same time acknowledging I would do it differently. I've also listened to different recordings of Junior Wells and thought that he was not playing alot of what could be there. Different Strokes. And Popper has his nitch too. ----------
The Original Downtown Philadelphia Fatman... Accept No substitutes!
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2010 7:37 AM
7LimitJI ... I'm glad I'm not the only one. I could probably come up with one hundred objective reasons why he is great but fact is, I don't like it. The band sounds nervous and boring, his playing is just noodling to me and it does not trigger any emotion. There is so much raw energy in the JW version which is completely missing in SB's.
I am not an enemy on inovation and progress at all but in most cases innovation seems to get confused with louder, faster, more notes, more chords, harder to play, more gear. New is not necessarely good and old is not necessarely bad. Those who laugh at the old schoolers often think they are innovative but very often they just throw the good about the old stuff overboard without replacing it with something of the same musical and - whats even more important to me - emotional value.
My post may sound hostile but that's really not my intention. I am really open to anything revolutionary and new but it rarely happens. Son Of Dave is great for example IMHO ... he's crazy, he does something I haven't heard before, he's straight forward and it touches me. If he has enough imitators, his style may even have the potential to last for a long time.
just my humble opinion, YMMV
---------- If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
*** But it's also true that we live in a very fast-paced and complex world. At least of a few of our best artists--including our best blues harmonica players--should be striving to respond authentically to that fast pace and complexity. Sugar Blue does that. Fast and complex can be good. ***
kudzurunner ... You are right, this would be authentic if you are living the same way and just reflect what's going on around you and inside of you.
This is just my personal approach but I think that's one of the things that are going on wrong today and therefore I choose not to contribute to it with my music. Simplicity, throwing off unneeded burdens and getting straight to the point is what we should do. It's sometimes hard to do in our daily routine but I can try to do it in my music and maybe it inspires a person or two in their life.The music of some great blues performers has taught me a lot about my life. Maybe I can do the same to somebody one day ... or maybe I have already ...
---------- If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
@bluefinger: Interesting take on SB's style. Personally, i find that the fast runs which use extension tones of the underlying chords evoke strong emotion. To me, his really makes an artistic statement with deep emotion, but the statement SB is making affects you in the opposite way.
That's the function of art--to provoke a reaction. That each of us reacts to SB's playing strongly, but opposite ways tends to validate the depth of his artistry, IMHO.
Anyone in the tri-state area can check out Sugar and my good friend Slam Allen at Terra Blues on Thursday,April 22 in NYC. I don't know if I will be there,but any video I may capture will be on YouTube. Sugar is great live=tons of energy and emotion. This cut from his studio album does not do him justice-he's a live player. Don't get me wrong-I love his earlier studio work-Blue Blazes and In Your Eyes-but he can truly be appreciated in a live setting. As far as his band members-no techno stuff here. Just solid backing by Rico McFarland,formerly of the James Cotton Band,a girl bass player-her name escapes me at the moment,and a killer drummer.
Last Edited by on Apr 01, 2010 10:17 AM
Well I know I'm a noob at MBH and I'm not the best judge of tone, but this thread goes way beyond harmonica and hits a subject much more musically broad.
Is innovation cheesy? IMHO, it can be.
The real questions are: Do you personally like it? Will it stand the test of time?
Most traditionalist mocked Miles when he started evolving his style. Herbie followed with some awesome stuff. When the 80s came around they thought the synth sounds were innovative, but most of us would agree that it was cheese. Some things work, some things don't.
As for this Sugar Blue track... I dig it, but that is probably because my forte is the funk!
Good points by earlounge... I guess what I was trying to get at in my post was the question of whether this Sugar Blue track is decades ahead of its time, as was sort of implied in the original post. I can't decide whether its great or not, but it sounds very much of a timepiece for me, equally as traditional as anything Junior Wells does..it's just a slightly different and later tradition, like mid to late 70's funk/fusion stuff, and it's obviously expertly played. But groundbreaking/innovative? I'm not sure, because I'm hearing a sound I have heard for decades from my older brother's record collection...those records just didn't have a super harp player on it, it was a sax/guitar/synth or something else doing exactly the same thing. It doesn't conjure up new horizons for me personally.
Bluzdde46 if winslow yxersa(did i spell that right?) transcribes your songs-he did this with popper- you are an awesome player. i just don't like blues traveler songs. i used popper cuz he got slammed pretty bad and sugar is taking some lumps here too.
