harpdude61
44 posts
Mar 24, 2010
8:50 AM
|
When I started learning harmonica 3 years ago, I ordered a book call "Blues and Rock Harmonica" by Glenn Weiser. I didn't really get into the book because this was about the time I discovered the virtues of youtube lessons. I just picked it up for the first time this morning in almost 3 years. The copyright date is 1990.
I don't know Glenn, but I'm sure he is a great person as well as musician. After reading about a 3rd of the book I was very surprised by some of the quotes and I am quoting below from the book.
"Note bends can be done on the lower six draw reeds and on the upper four blow reeds. Bending the draw reeds is called OVERDRAWING and bending the blow reeds is called OVERBLOWING. Overdrawing is easier to begin with so let's start with that." ...........Hmmmmm
"What actaully happens inside the harmonica when bending a note is that the air stream has narrowed, and instead of the tip of the reed vibrating as usual, the thicker part (which virates more slowly and therefore a lower pitch) is activated."..............so you can vibrate part of a reed? and I thought bending was caused by the other reed in the hole activating.
"4 and 5 draw are the easiest notes to learn to bend on. These notes can be lowered by 1/2 step.".........5 can be bent some but should not be taught as a 1/2 step bend.
"The 1-1/2 step bend on hole 3 is the minor third and rarely used."........hmmm..in 1st position it is the flat 6th, 2nd position its the flat 2nd, and 3rd position it is the flat 5th.
"Bending the high out reeds (overblowing) is done by raising the middle of the tongue as you blow."......hmmm again
"7 hole blow bends down 1/2 step. Holes 8,9,10 bend down a whole step."........again, 7 blow bent is not a 1/2 step and on my harps 8 and 9 blow are 1/2 step bends.
"Hitting an overblown bent note directly is difficult to the point of being impractical, so when overblowing always start with the normal blow note of the hole. Phrases that start with bent notes should be on the lower holes only."......Tell James Cotton he can't start a phrase with his nasty 8 blow bend in 1st position.
"Tongue blocking is used mainly for playing straight harp or first position"........I ain't touchin that!
No wonder new players get confused.........
|
mr_so&so
289 posts
Mar 24, 2010
9:18 AM
|
Wow, I'm dumbfounded. "I'm sure he is a great person as well as musician". Your being way too kind. To publish so much misinformation makes him a bad person in my book. And if he were a good musician, he'd know the facts.
|
harpdude61
45 posts
Mar 24, 2010
10:04 AM
|
I can understand about being confused by the overblow and overdraw terms back in the late 80s, but I am shocked about how much he says certain notes will bend and of course the tongue blocking. Was he in a band during that time?
|
Joe_L
112 posts
Mar 24, 2010
10:05 AM
|
It's a book. It's one man's opinion. It's not the gospel.
I remember when I read Tony Glover's instructional book. After a few years, I realized that there were mistakes in that, too. You adapt.
Clearly, you are beyond that level of instruction. Why let it bother you?
|
clyde
16 posts
Mar 24, 2010
10:16 AM
|
mr so&so and harpdude...
don't be dumbfounded by any misinformation in any book.
i don't like to defend folks but he is a good musician....as far as good or bad person.... i think you need to find out more about him before you go public with a statement like him being a bad person.... i know you'll say it is your your opinion and you have a right to yours but such a statement with so little knowledge of a person is just not right.
i do know one thing ... he is a good musician.
if you want bad info...try reading new history books that are used in school.
dig deep my friend.
|
harpdude61
46 posts
Mar 24, 2010
10:20 AM
|
Joe L..this is not about opinions. These are presented as facts about the 10 hole diatonic harmonica. Huge difference in stating opinions on which is best, tongue block or lip purse, and presenting totally wrong information about the harmonica.
It does not bother me. Concern is a better word. I just hate that some new students might be buying this book and absorbing the material as fact.
If one new player bypasses the book and goes to Gussow, Gindick, Buddha, or any of the top instructors, then the post was worth my time.
|
harpdude61
47 posts
Mar 24, 2010
10:31 AM
|
I found some of Glenn's stuff on youtube. In my opnion he is a fine musician. I was not demeaning anyone. It just surprised me that the book held so much mis-information.
Maybe I am not qualified or respected enough to say these things. I've only been on the board a few weeks.
The quotes were copied correctly. Someone that knows better than me please chime in!
|
nacoran
1503 posts
Mar 24, 2010
10:34 AM
|
As to what's going on inside the harp, I think cameras for looking inside are getting better, so I'll let him pass on that. As for the other terms, we get arguments over terms all the time. I think maybe before the internet maybe there wasn't as much standardization. It's sort of like how words mean different things in different languages, only the language is specific to a small group of musicians, each from a different part of the country, meeting different people.
----------
Nate
Facebook
|
Joe_L
113 posts
Mar 24, 2010
11:06 AM
|
Dude - just because something is written and published in book form doesn't mean it's accurate and truthful.
There is a lot of misinformation spread on the Internet, too. Sites like wikipedia are full of data, presented as factual information, that is just plain wrong.
As you have found, harmonica instructional materials have come a long way in the past two decades. Clearly, there is a lot better stuff available today. A person learning to play blues harmonica has a lot of options available.
There is very little to be confused about. There is a lot of work to be done during the learning process. Trial and error isn't a bad way to learn.
|
harpdude61
48 posts
Mar 24, 2010
11:08 AM
|
I guess things do change Clyde ....could someone send me one of those vintage 10 hole major diatonics harps from the early 90s so I can bend the 8 and 9 hole down a whole step and the 3 hole down 1-1/2 steps to get the minor 3rd... and I've always dreamed of playing Whammer Jammer but my modern harps will not let me play the nine hole bent before the 9 blow on the opening lick. Wonder if Magic Dick might sell me one.....See there Kingobad..others can be a smart ass too!...lol
|
harpdude61
49 posts
Mar 24, 2010
11:15 AM
|
Damn.....try to be helpful and make light of how things change and get 40 lashes on this board. I ain't talking about other books or the moon or what is right or wrong on the net. I even said he was a nice guy and great musician!
When you buy harps and accessories on the web, items like this book pop up and say "buy me". Just trying to save a new harp player a few bucks when much better stuff is available. Lord, forgive me.
|
clyde
18 posts
Mar 24, 2010
11:43 AM
|
no need to cuss harpdude61. most of my post was referring to (mr so and so) but now that you mention it....
"Bending the high out reeds (overblowing) is done by raising the middle of the tongue as you blow."......hmmm again
that's how i do it....not very well by the way. but it works.
i do agree there is some mis information there but not all of what you pointed out is. as a matter of fact i think your post for the most part is very helpful....a lot more helpful than any of my posts...really it is a good post.
i should have made two replys ... one to you and one to (so&so)...my mistake. my van allen belt comment was more of a response to...well it doesn't matter.
don't quit making good observations on your post just because of me....and you might as well get used to the tone of the replys....these are down right nice compared to most i read on the net.
|
harpdude61
50 posts
Mar 24, 2010
11:48 AM
|
Thanks Clyde..and your technique does work for blow bends....its just the term overblow should not be there.
This forum is a lot of fun.....but I guess you do need to have thick skin at times.
Everyone wants to be right all the tiem...lol...don't we wish...
|
clyde
19 posts
Mar 24, 2010
12:21 PM
|
it's funny you said that......because when i read the post the first time where you wrote overblowing ....i read what my mind told me it should have said and and not what it said...go figue...
i don't know if the term (overblow) was widely used in 1990 in the way we use it now....or not?
Last Edited by on Mar 24, 2010 12:22 PM
|
Tuckster
445 posts
Mar 24, 2010
12:50 PM
|
I've been around long enough to tell you,20 years ago, there was very little information about the harp. The term overblow,as it's known now,probably existed, but only by about 10 people. I started in the early 90's and I played for several years before I even MET another harp player. We now have access to an almost overwhelming amount of information about the harp. If you Goggle Glenn, you'll find he's serious about harp. I believe he made the definitive tab of "Juke". He is probably guilty of not revising his books,but I don't want to hang him for it.
|
KingoBad
224 posts
Mar 24, 2010
1:51 PM
|
Harpdude61,
Ha! Your right, I am a terminal smart ass.
I think it is perhaps the title of your thread that has brought this response. We can only make suppositions based upon the logic of your opening premise.
If you said "Beginners, don't buy this book!" Then you would have aroused a sympathetic response as we are all on the look out for beginners.
We all know that there is plenty of crap out there. You mention a book that you bought as a beginner, but never used. Only to pick it up three years later to find how bad your purchase was. Not only was it unimportant to you, now you are sharing it with us.
Fortunately groups hold each other accountable. We are just tongue in cheeking you into submission.
|
mr_so&so
291 posts
Mar 24, 2010
2:17 PM
|
I guess it was my turn to go off the deep end. Sorry, sorry, sorry.
I guess I didn't fully realize that 1990 was still in the dark ages of harmonica knowledge (especially w.r.t. overblows --- but if he didn't know about them, how did he confuse them with regular bends?). Anyway, I retract my "bad person" comment unreservedly, and apologize to the author. I also retract my "bad musician" comment, despite the basic music theory errors. Perhaps I just should have said "looks like a poor book" and left it at that.
|
harpdude61
51 posts
Mar 24, 2010
5:04 PM
|
I agree Kingobad...not a very good desciption in the title.
Mr. So & So......I admire the retraction. I guess I made it seem like a bigger deal than it was myself.
He had probably heard the terms overdraw and overblow and just assumed they were terms used for what he already knew, draw bends and blow bends. I have asked more than one pretty good players if they can overblow, and they start playing a 7,8,9,10 blow bend riff.
Howard Levy said he wishee overblows had a different name, that it does cause confusion.
|
clyde
22 posts
Mar 26, 2010
5:18 PM
|
harpdude
i hate to drag this back up (i really do) but i was reading your post again and i don't see what is wrong with these two statements...thanks
"4 and 5 draw are the easiest notes to learn to bend on. These notes can be lowered by 1/2 step.".........5 can be bent some but should not be taught as a 1/2 step bend.
"The 1-1/2 step bend on hole 3 is the minor third and rarely used."........hmmm..
|
gene
433 posts
Mar 26, 2010
7:14 PM
|
I have "Blues & Rock Positions Made Easy" by David Harp. On page 36 he shows a high end blues scale: 6 -7' 7 -8' -8 8 -9 9. (The apostrophies mean bend.)
I have "John Sebastion and Paul Butterfield Teach Harmonica." There is a section in which John is teaching principals of Accompaniment, and he uses Roadhouse Blues as an example. The playing and tab he uses are a hole higher than what he used in the recording of that song with The Doors.
I have "Beginning Rock Harp" by Don Baker. It has far too many typos and mistakes to enumerate.
I have David Barretts Masterclass materials. It's an intentional thing that he does whereas he shows musical score in the key of G no matter what the actual key or harp is. This is to make reading his excercises easier, but will cause great confusion later on to those who are absolutely new to music theory.
|
Diggsblues
256 posts
Mar 27, 2010
7:19 AM
|
It would seem there is a big whole in harmonica instruction books. I use a lot of Charlie McCoy stuff
and write the rest of the stuff myself.
Students have to learn at least how to read on
the C diatonic. I use tabs only as necessary.
|
Ryan
252 posts
Mar 27, 2010
7:59 AM
|
Hopefully harpdude doesn't mind me answering Clyde's last question.
"4 and 5 draw are the easiest notes to learn to bend on. These notes can be lowered by 1/2 step."
This is incorrect because the 5 draw cannot be bent down a full half step. It can only be bent down about a quarter tone, maybe a little more. This sentence: "5 can be bent some but should not be taught as a 1/2 step bend." was written by harpdude, not the author, is that what you were confused about?
"The 1-1/2 step bend on hole 3 is the minor third and rarely used."
Harpdude also explained why this is incorrect. The one and a half step bend on the 3 draw is not the minor third in 1st, 2nd, or 3rd position(which I would imagine are the only positions he would be teaching in that book). If he were teaching them to play in 12th position this would be correct, but there is no way, especially in 1990, that he was teaching 12th position in a beginners harp book(that isn't to say that nobody was playing in that position, I know Howard Levy was).
EDIT: It's possible what he meant to say was that the 1-1/2 step bend on 3 draw is a minor third below the the natural 3 draw(a minor third equals a step and a half). But this is not what he said, and even if that's what he meant(and I don't really think it is) it's a pretty confusing way to descibe that note.
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2010 8:13 AM
|
barbequebob
644 posts
Mar 27, 2010
10:44 AM
|
Going back to when I started in the early 70's, there was VERY LITTLE in the way of instructional materials available for harmonica at all, let alone just the diatonic and blues.
Even when Tony Glover put out his first book "Blues Harp," then his early 70's follow up "Blues Harp Songbook." despite mistakes I later found in them, they were ground breaking in many ways.
Today there's so much info just on the internet alone that makes all of those books put out by guys like Tony Glover, Richard Hunter, Tommy Morgan and Alan Blackie Shackner seem dated at times and full of errors to differeing degrees.
You guys just don't know how lucky you are to be able to have all of this info at the computer now a nd finding much of this took a lot of digging and just the maintenenace and tweaking aspect alone for years were things that were never published.
In retrospect, these books were great in their day being as there was almost nothing available at the time they were published so I think many of you need to put it in perspective, which many of you just aren't doing.
Trust me, in over 30+ years of playing, mainly pro, I've seen far more than the vast majority of you reading this have.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
congaron
732 posts
Mar 27, 2010
10:51 AM
|
As a 52 year old that was trying to learn from a book i had in the late sixties, i can't see anything in the above quotations that would have much impact on a beginner at all in a negative way, back then. It looks like that book might have gotten me past the bending hurdle I never conquered until last year. The book I had was so bad it never even mentioned bending holes 7-10, and only talked about bending enough to make you want to do it..mentioning it was necessary was about all it said. That's how I got stuck on Oh suzanna and dixie and the few first position songs in that book for so many years and frustration prevented me from getting more than mildly interested in it. I wish i could even remember the name of that book. I can't. It seems like it came with a marine band harmonica I got for christmas.
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2010 10:52 AM
|
Joe_L
121 posts
Mar 27, 2010
11:49 AM
|
Back in the day, I had a couple of books by Blackie Schackner. They helped me get some of the basics down like playing single notes. The blues examples that his books had were just plain bad. It was like nothing you had heard on any record in my collection at the time. It was just plain horrible stuff. Add that to a person who had been playing for less than a year, I'm surprised no one shot me.
It wasn't until about six months or a year later that I stumbled on Tony Glover's book. While it wasn't completely accurate, it explained enough to begin moving forward again and understanding the basics of cross harp. I can still remember the day I hit my first bent note cleanly and it sounded right.
There was nobody teaching how to play Blues on the harmonica. If that was something you wanted to do, you had to do it the way the previous generation had done it. The hard way. You had to immerse yourself in the music and constantly practice. Nobody was going to sit you down and tell you how to do something. The prevailing thought was, if you loved it enough, you would figure it out.
In some ways, things haven't really changed that much. I live near a lot of David Barrett's students. You can easily tell the difference between the guys that are committed to learning and the guys that are BS'ing their way through it.
The big difference is that today's instructional materials merely simplify the learning process.
If you love it enough, they will put in the effort necessary to sound good. If not, they may hit the right notes, but they will be missing the little things.
Last Edited by on Mar 27, 2010 1:45 PM
|
clyde
23 posts
Mar 27, 2010
1:04 PM
|
thanks ryan....yes and i blew out a few five reeds years ago before i new better.
it's funny over the years i have found i a couple of books where the one and a half step bend has been discribed as a minor third.
again thanks for the help
|
harpdude61
52 posts
Mar 27, 2010
4:08 PM
|
Thanks for chiming in everyone. I guess we are lucky in this day and time. Though I am almost 50, I just started playing about 4 years ago. Pretty much everything I have learned is from youtube. May get brave enough to post my playing sometime...lol
|
Joe_L
123 posts
Mar 27, 2010
5:06 PM
|
Hey man! The best thing you can do is get out there and play. You'll make a lot more progress AND you'll might as well conquer any confidence issues now, rather than later.
|
walterharp
280 posts
Mar 27, 2010
5:18 PM
|
not only is it impressive how much information is out there, but how the numerous people involved makes for a sort of fact checking...there are lots of old wives' tales out there, but free sharing of information has led to a situation where you can find out lots, some of it is wrong, but if you pay attention, the wheat can be separated from the chaff.
some said you gotta learn it the "hard way". in my experience, i had lots of fun learning it because it came from just playing a lot and jamming with guitar players. it was only hard in that the efficiency was not as great.
|
ness
173 posts
Mar 28, 2010
8:32 AM
|
Great perspective Bob.
I don't think the mistakes are sooo bad. I know some of these things are relatively new and evolving concepts.
These days we've sure got plenty of information available, but that's not always such a good thing. In the year I've been at this, I've collected 3 or 4 harmonica books, a bunch more stuff I've printed off the web, and have spent hours watching videos on the web. A lot of the information is conflicting or inaccurate.
I have to believe that if I spent as much time practicing as I do reading and listening to all this stuff (or reading this forum) I'd be much farther along.
Last Edited by on Mar 28, 2010 8:41 AM
|
barbequebob
645 posts
Mar 28, 2010
12:41 PM
|
Even with all the info now available, there's always gonna be stuff that may not always be correct and even what may be correct can be debatable. I wish 1/1000th of the stuff that's available on the internet now was available when I started out in the 70's, as I had to ask a lot of questions, sometimes being a pest, or to some, a total pain in the ass, but I learned a lot, and I am always learning, which basically is what life is about and the minute you stop learning, you basically just die.
Even with the authors of all the stuff that's been written over the years, stuff they thought was true at one time can often be something quite different now.
Believe me, there's still stuff you cannot get from the internet or videos, etc., that flat out hard work and experience will teach you you. Hell, there's stuff for all instruments that are still not taught particularly well to this day in music schools and one of them right off the bat is groove and how it realtes to all of the different music genres. Too often I see groove not taught well in a school with a great reputation like one here in Boston, Berklee College of Music, where I've seen so many hot shots from there who think just because they go there, they know everything there is to know about music, and believe me, in auditions with a lot of them, I've severly humbled them because much of what I know comes from experience.
----------
Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
|
