"....and if this is thin tone, I love it:" Sorry Adam, just curious as to why this might be regarded as a "thin" tone? Sounds substantial enough to me, though BW could be pretty strident at times.
I don't have a harp with me to be certain, but in the first video it sounds like he's using a fairly high harp. Like a D at the lowest, but sounds more like an E or an F. How would you get a much thicker tone than that out of those harps? I guess I'm saying that his tone doesn't sound particularly "thin" to me here. ? -Bob
@5F6H: It's thin tone because there's not much bottom end in it. The lack of bottom end--and thus the thinness of the sound--is for five different reasons:
1) He's playing a high-key harp 2) He's holding himself back, rather than really hitting it hard 3) He's not cupping his hands completely closed against the mic; some air is getting in, and that's thinning the tone. (See :22 for an example of this) 4) The amp isn't cranked up, so there's very little sag or compression created by the amp. It's "amped harp," in other words, but it's not heavily amped. In fact, it's very lightly amped. 5) The dynamic mic he's using doesn't drive the amp very hard.
It's wonderful playing, isn't it? Incredibly swinging and tasteful.
I noted the fact of his thin tone primarily as a way of carrying on my friendly skirmish with Dennis Gruenling and others who might be tempted to insist a) that a big, fat, warm, rich tone is THE tone; and b) that tongue blocking is the only effective way of creating such a tone.
This video makes pointedly clear a) that thin, breathy tone works amazingly well in the hands of a player who knows how to use it; and b) that tongue-blocking is a great way to get thin, breathy tone.
I'll be the first to say that one of the subtleties I like here is precisely the little bit of chordy texture that Big Walter gets near the beginning of the clip when he hits the 2 hole TB'd. Great stuff. A few of us have figured out how to make that sound lip pursed, but it's a great sound here and it makes a difference.
Last Edited by on Mar 12, 2010 10:20 AM
Having seen BW tons of times, I absolutely agree that he's not playing hard, and typical of him when he played REALLY soft, regardless of the key harp and there were many times he purposely didn't tight cup the mic at all, and a big part of his sound was his incredible use of breath control as well as how he used his hands in order to shape his sound. His use of breath control, use of hands, and even forming vowels sounds with the inside shape of his mouth is VERY important and most people largely ignore that.
Evening Sun is one of my all time favorite recorded moments of BW.
As far as him TB, I'm pretty sure he used both ways and a number of things can easily be done either way. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
a 'fat tone' wouldn't improve walter; it would just be different. he has lots of songs with lots bottom end. 'fat tone' is one of those things blues harp guys go on and on about to no purpose. like TB vs.LP. bob talks about people ignoring technique. i take it that he means learn how to play the harp and not your sonny junior, your premier reverb,and your cool mics. if so, i totally agree.
MP. that is EXACTLY what I'm saying because too many players use gear as a crutch for not learning technique and they think VERY MISTAKENLY that the gear will make up for that, which is TOTALLY not true at all. The one good thing about open jams forcing harp players to go thru the PA is that it puts them all, gear wise, on a truly equal footing and those who TRULY have tone, technique, and resonance down will ALWAYS shine thru regardless and those that don't will get exposed in a heartbeat.
I've seen BW get that great tone of his thru the PA as well as thru an amp and there was no mistaking it ever. Ditto with guys like Cotton, and just about every great player you can name regardless of genre.
Many of those old masters frankly didn't give a crap what they played thru as long as their sound got across and a few of them would be rolling on the floor laughing at the gear obsessed who posess too musch gear with very little tone, technique and resonance.
Fat tone does not necessarily mean dirty to be fat at all. You can still have thin amplified tone, but that is gonna actually be a reflection of the player's own thin acoustic tone and chops, and very little to do with the amplification being used. It's like having a house with fancy siding and a bad foundation.
Oda, that video came from a German TV show from the mid 60's. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
oh gosh, what a great video! I spent many nights at the knickerbocker cafe in westerly ri watching BWH play with Ronnie, Sugar Ray Norcia and Johnny Nicholas. Johnny teamed up with BWH for a great album, Fine Cuts. For a couple years, it seems BWH was a fixture in the area playing and hanging with Johnny and his family. You even would see him in watch hill eating ice cream cones!
BTW IN THE ABOVE VIDEO WITH RONNIE EARL AT ABOUT 1:41 BIG WALTER DOES HIS HEAD SHAKE, THATS WHY HE WAS KNOWN IN CHICAGO ALS AS SHAKY HEAD WALTER AND SHAKY HORTON.
I know this isn't a very technical response but sometimes the "fat tone" thing just sounds too fat...kind of muffled or like they are playing under water or something. I'm enjoying listening to the above vids...somehow his playing was under my radar before and I totally missed it. I had the Chicago All Stars CD with him on it but the Sonny Terry playing is what stood out for me on that CD.
Last Edited by on Mar 13, 2010 7:58 AM
bluzlvr, i love this vid, bad sound and all. perfect example of impecable phasing. observe how walter pauses at the intersection, watches the cars go by, decides not to cross the street, but fools you and does. bad bad ass!!
I think that it's worth making a distinction between between thickness of tone & pitch/frequency. Thickness of tone is something that is relative from player to player, technique to technique. Key of harp is relevant to frequency, if a lower key harp was all that it took to get a thick tone, then everyone would just play tenor tuned harps & sound like gods...and they don't. A player with a thick tone will sound fuller if they can play with wider harmonic content, rather than just blasting through the fundamental note, so if you start with a high root note, your thickness will only really be down to exploiting the harmonics of that note...to get more "low end" would need a device like an octaver etc. and really takes us somewhere else.
As to whether BW is holding back or playing hard in the first clip...we can only really guess at that.
BW rarely seemed to play fully cupped for long periods, he could sound as fat as most players when one handed & he was a master at shaping the tone with his many & varied hand effects, so why this clip would be any thicker or thinner than much of his recorded output is a moot point as far as I can see?
Lightly amped? I don't know what this means. I understand that an amp might not be heavily overdriven, but you are either "amped" or not. Turn an amp down too far and you lose fidelity...maybe in the full unedited clip there may be a shot of BW's amp (if so please post)? If not, it is just an assumption that he s using an amp at all. Much of his recorded output seems to not include a guitar amp at all, BW could sound great just cupping a mic into a desk.
As BBQ Bob says, I thought there was plenty of anecdotal evidence to support the position that BW played notes both ways, there was a guy who used to work as an agent for BW (Day?) who said that BW told him to mix it up, not just play one way or the other.
All that said, this doesn't sound like a "thin" tone to me. When the phrase thin tone is used I think of something that is lacking in harmonic content & richness, possibly something that is tinny & hard on the ear. BW was captured like that at times, but this doesn't strike me as one of them.
There is no one way to achieve a rich sound, many venerated players made beautiful music without necessarily sounding like they had a particularly thick tone...this should be the goal at the end of the day. I hear plenty of TB'ers who don't achieve a thick tone, I hear plenty of guys who do achieve it LP'ing. For my $0.02 I think that the difference in thickness (as to the body of the note & harmonic content, excluding artifacts like slapping & techniques like chords/octaves) is impossible to determine when comparing the 2 techniques...as evidenced by the number of references I see to TB'ing that actually quote players who select single notes by LP'ing. The only difference I perceive is that TB'ing, by virtue of playing through a larger orifice, gives a "damping" effect, smoothing the front of the note, making it less hard, direct & strident, giving the perception of more warmth at that point. An LP'er taking care to play the front of the note in this manner may well sound warmer than many TB'ers. But note, I am talking about a single player, swapping techniques...a player with a thick tone, is a player with a thick tone, irrespective of LP, TB, UB.
As far as the players mentioned in this thread, whilst great they may be, they don't strike me as folks with a particularly thick tone...like say Wolf, Cotton, Gary Smith, Paul Delay. That doesn't mean I'm saying that they have thin tone, or I don't care for what they do (just trying to be objective & not start a flame war)...just that an especially thick tone is a pretty rare thing and not necessarily related to playing well or sounding good.
Last Edited by on Mar 15, 2010 2:56 AM
I have to say upfront that I don't often follow the forum that much and only get on to check topics out when I get some free time and I happen to be near my computer. So I apologize for a late reply.
Now to quote you:
"I noted the fact of his thin tone primarily as a way of carrying on my friendly skirmish with Dennis Gruenling and others who might be tempted to insist a) that a big, fat, warm, rich tone is THE tone; and b) that tongue blocking is the only effective way of creating such a tone."
For the record, in a fairly recent thread I got on to post a few comments. It was a thread titled in reference to "fat/fattest tone" (or something about "fat tone") and people made some comments on TB vs LB playing techniques/embouchures.
To keep the record straight,
A) I didn't start the thread
B) I tried to make clear several times (even answering specifically to you when you seemed to think otherwise) that I wasn't advocating TB or even saying it's the only way to get "good" or "the best" tone, I was specifically talking about the subject at hand ("fat tone") and my thoughts and especially my experience with my own playing as well my students and many professional players I know.
C) I never insisted that a "big, fat, warm, rich tone is THE tone" (although I personally LOVE that sound and it is a big part of what I like and strive for)...again I was adding my 2 or 4 cents (from years of playing & teaching & talking to other players) to the thread.
4) I also never stated that "tongue blocking is the only effective way of creating such a tone" I did state that in all my years of playing & teaching & talking to other players & listening to players that I felt & experienced the "fattest" tone as one you can get through TB...and that all the players & students I know who do both noticed that as well.
As to your reasons why "there's not much bottom end in it. The lack of bottom end--and thus the thinness of the sound--is for five different reasons:" I will add my own thoughts...and I have a few others beat me to some of my points anyway.
1) He's playing a high-key harp
In my book this has nothing to do with thinness/fatness of tone. At least the way we were talking about it previously. Granted on a VERY high (or low) harp it's hard to hear big differences in tone, but generally speaking there is still a variety of tones you can get and notice on at least the range of a Low F to a "regular" F harp.
2) He's holding himself back, rather than really hitting it hard
I don't think "hitting it hard" will cause more bottom-end. In fact, I think the opposite. Playing too hard will usually create less bottom end in my experience.
3) He's not cupping his hands completely closed against the mic; some air is getting in, and that's thinning the tone. (See :22 for an example of this)
Again, there is a difference in what you & I are referring to as "tone" in this and likely some past threads. I feel someone's personal tone is aside from how you use your hands, how you set your amp, etc... One can still have a great tone per se (as I see it) and still open & close hands around a mic for further & different tonal variations.
4) The amp isn't cranked up, so there's very little sag or compression created by the amp. It's "amped harp," in other words, but it's not heavily amped. In fact, it's very lightly amped.
Again, regardless of how little or much it is amped, I think "harmonica tone" is a separate issue. Don't get me wrong - the amp, microphone & one's amplified technique have a LOT to do with the overall sound one can get, but all my previous comments were specifically about harmonica "tone" in general...not about amplified which adds many other factors ASIDE from your personal tone.
5) The dynamic mic he's using doesn't drive the amp very hard.
...see my comment above.
It would be very difficult to start a thread on amplified tone without having to get into all the possible aspects of it: personal tone/embouchure, microphone, amp (and it's settings), tubes, speakers, etc...).
It is also very difficult to use some performance clips - vintage or new - to reference or pick apart tone in my opinion. I know that my "tone/sound" is different from how I sound in some, if not most, performance clips. I'm sure it's the same with other players. And keep in mind that all of this also will be affected on how it was recorded as well.
One final quote from you: "I'll be the first to say that one of the subtleties I like here is precisely the little bit of chordy texture that Big Walter gets near the beginning of the clip when he hits the 2 hole TB'd. Great stuff. A few of us have figured out how to make that sound lip pursed, but it's a great sound here and it makes a difference."
I agree, it's one of my favorite sounds on harp as well. However since you seem to want to keep addressing the issue, I'll add that you can get close to that sound LB, but can't get all the same variations or attacks on that note/chord sound if you're not TB'ing it. It's not physically possible. Period.
Dennis, this is off topic, but I heard you were going to make the History of the Blues Harmonica Concert CDs available via CD Baby. I live in the UK and can't order it anywhere - it's killing me! If you get chance to answer, can you tell me if this the case and whether mp3 download format be available too?
It will be there shortly (maybe a few days!) and will be on my new website as well soon - www.badassharmonica.com - will be working on a digital download for it as well.
After hearing Dennis Gruenling's totally BadAss version of "When The Saints Go Marching In" that was posted earlier where he used a G harp, it inspired me to work on the song with a harp at the other end of the spectrum - an F harp. ---------- http://www.myspace.com/jeffscranton
One thing no one has noticed, but BW is NOT playing thru an amp, as he's playing thru the PA here because I know for a fact he never carried around that mic you see him using at all. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
MP,BBQ, I have to respectfully disagree. I think if you play amplified harp, knowing how to play your amp and mic is as important. I consider my acoustic tone great, and my amplified tone marginal. And I have a dozen great harp amps, and even more great harp mics. Your amp and your mic are instruments as well. Pluto
