One of the things that I notice most is that the top players have what I call three dimensional tone.
Please forgive me if this post rambles on but I'm just trying to explain what I mean in a clear manner.
Players like Big Walter, Little Walter, Dennis Gruenling, Kim Wilson, Jason Ricci, Carlos Del Junco and others have that extra dimension to their playing that brings it more to life and makes it more animated than other good players. This is one of the things that to me makes them great players.
Now I'm not necessarily talking about "big fat tone" here although that can play a large part of it. What I mean is their playing has more depth of character to it's tone across the board. I know of many. many players who have good (some even great) tone. A lot have that "big fat tone" but they all have what I refer to as two dimensional tone. It's really nice to listen to but it doesn't have that character that the great players have.
The advice laid out by Adam and Chris is undoubtedly a big part of getting there. I wonder however whether to achieve that three dimensional tone there is something more required to achieve it. I suspect it's mostly just plain old hard work, but wonder if there is also more involved.
To explain what I mean here's a video of Dennis playing and because I don't wish to annoy someone by singling out anyone else in particular for having 2D tone here's one of me playing. Hopefully this will explain what I mean about 2D vs 3D tone..
I think it all comes with experience and knowing all the little tricks to help color your playing. Dennis in that video was doing a lot more than strait dry playing. it takes a long time and knowledge to get that good. i also think having a great band adds a forth dimension that with out would make Dennis sound sort of off with all he was doing. That is if he was playing exactly that without the band. You also got to get in and feel the groove. in your video it just does not seem like your into it as much as Dennis was. that i think is that third dimension that your talking about, The Groove.
To me though it seems that the guys I mentioned in my first post have more general colour to their notes which adds a lot of depth and dimension than most other people (I'm talking about other professional and amateur players here).
It is probably "all the little tricks" as you say that does it. I think the throwing yourself in with total abandon also makes a big difference to the overall output as well.
Admittedly the Dennis to me comparison doesn't really explain what I mean in a great way, but it's the only way I could demonstrate it without risking upsetting anyone.
Last Edited by on Feb 27, 2010 4:51 AM
KIngley...I think I know what you mean. I'm sitting at work listening to both the vids and if you close your eyes, there's a couple of times when both Dennis and yourself are playing and it does'nt even sound like your playing a harp...if sounds sometimes like a trumpet, sometimes like a trombone and sometimes like...I don't know, maybe a clarinet or something...just lovely.
Have you ever thought of letting your hair grow? There might be some kinda Samson/Harp thing going on there that only long haired people can get that tone....
Nice playing. My old teacher had a really nice T3 mic like that and he used to play it through a really old Fender Tremolux...just beautiful tone.
"Have you ever thought of letting your hair grow? There might be some kinda Samson/Harp thing going on there that only long haired people can get that tone...."
That one was the original MC101 (or maybe MC111) crystal element. I have some other T3's with CM elements in them which all sound great. The T3 is such a comfortable mic to cup as well and of course looks as cool as hell too.
I hope you dint take what i said personally but you did compare yourself to Dennis Gruenling. I think you sounded good too. I Agree that throwing yourself into the song makes a big difference. I think i always sound better when i let myself go.
I will add to what Harmonicanick wrote. I have been teaching myself to record my music for the past 5 years. It has been a great journey and one thing I have learned pertains to two videos posted. The first one has a full band as mentioned by harmonicanick and the second solo. I have learned how the various tones of each instrument compliment and bother each other. My recordings are all done live in a 1 man band set up. I don't have a bass guitar in the mixes. That takes a huge dimension out of the 3D being asked about here. I will be listening to some slim harpo or jimmy reed and go - man the depth of these recordings is beyond me...... It is in a big part due to the instrumentation being used. Take that harp in the first video and erase the band and you will hear a much different sound than when they all are together playing. Mixing recordings has to be done 2 ways. First you have to get a decent sound on each track while listening to it without the others playing. Next you have to play the tracks together and it is amazing how good they sound indivdually, and how often they don't collectively until you do that second mix with them all together. Listen to some of Sinatra's Capitol recordings when he talks before a song starts. He voice sounds a lot thinner than when the band comes in. All those frequencies that those instruments put out, when mixed right, compliment each part of the sound. I am getting long winded, but like harmonicanick said, get a band behind you , or a jamtrack, and then listen to your sound. Also the quality of the recording makes a huge difference on the sound. When someone posts a youtube that is recorded with a basic handheld camera, the sound is terrible to my ears. I have to listen past that, like you do on the old 78 recordings. A quality studio recording will show the big differences in every part of a performance.
Also the way one carries themself musically has a huge impact on the sound. We are 3D sensory beings. Our eyes, ears, bodies, feel in unision. to me the great players go beyond tone. Tone,phrasing, riffs, are easily had if one practices enough. Just do a youtube google and you will find a million guys out there with great tone, riffs, phrasing, but making it musically unique and powerful is something that you can't learn in a book, and seperates the technicians from the artists. You have to have it in your being. It has to come out with no concern for worldly praises or shames. It has to be done period, or you will not be a complete person. That is what makes the greats great. Watch a SBWII or Lightning Hopkins video. Those guys are oozing more music just standing doing nothing, than most players can produce in a lifetime of playing notes. That, combined with a good recording, and you have the formula for a classic, unique, sound. I will never rival the ones most people hold in high esteem here, but I have my own sound. That to me is the key to be a true artist. I still go to my chess recordg artists/lightning/slim harpo/jimmy reed/ recordings over anybody recording today because they have a great recording sound and unique sound that oozes from them and IMO, nobody playing today has created an equal. Maybe this is the 3D thing you are talking about? Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
Nick - Thanks for the kind words. Yes you're right it's very hard to find the right players with "big ears".
Walter - Your last paragraph sums it up well in my opinion. I suspect you could be right and that is what maybe makes all the difference to the 3D vs 2D thing. Dennis Greunling for example does that I think as does Jason Ricci.
I think possibly what you're talking about has to do with dynamics. Not only dynamics within a phrase, but the dynamics of the notes themselves. A large, under-control amp like a Harp-King, Bassman, Super Reverb, etc allows you to float anywhere you need to within the mix, and the capacity for inflections and "punctuation" helps make what you play interesting to listen to. Or, a band that knows how to play with harp, allowing you to create those within-the-note dynamics with a smaller amp.
Playing a rig that's too small for the job results in playing that's analogous to someone shouting all the time. An amp on full-tilt, or a player blowing hard on every note played...either one might get you heard, but lacks the 3-D texture you describe.
TB effects can be ornamentation that almost go unnoticed, but add to the "3D-ness" of your sound, or they can be overdone in relation to what you play, and come across too much. The mic/amp relationship, player, and other factors come into play here.
To illustrate my point here are two vids, same night, same band, same rig. On the first one my amp was not loud enough. On the second one, it was. Having the amp louder allowed me to play more comfortably and I think I sound better, perhaps more 3-D, as a result.
Kingley: thanks. I am a firm believer in whatever moves someone is legitimately great stuff. Now, whether it moves a few, hundreds, thousands, or are the beatles, is a worldly consequence of numbers. That still doesn't make the artist with one person who thinks they are the best any less than the beatles. It is totally subjective and the nature of the human being is to be a follower. Once someone gets momentum with the media, the masses fall in line and soon you are great! I remember when I first hit Austin. Judy and I were living with Luther Tucker (LW's guitarist). He told me about this funky little club. I went down there and the guy hired me. The first night I played it was dead but then 2 young kids came in and asked to sit in. Soon the place was overflowing out the door. Did I do anything different than when it was empty? No. Who were the kids? Will and Charlie Sexton. The masses followed them everywhere. Soon I was somebody. When I post my songs, I get little to no feedback. But if I post about doing the soundtracks for NBC Specials, or being offered to play with clapton and robbie robertson on the color of money soundtrack, I get a lot more responses. Did my songs change at all? No. People need heros and our society produces them and there are strict requirements for being a hero. I truly believe that any harp player on this forum that can play decent, with the right promo and backing, and willingness to do what it takes to be a known name, could be one. I don't mean to take away from anyone who has made it. Hopefully they are just doing what they are driven to do and the fame is a byproduct, but not the goal. True artists that make it, know that the fame aspect is really nothing at all. The art is the thing. They have to do it to be a full person. They would do it if no one listened. The problems happen when people start listening and the eqo gets involved. That is a temptation that gets everyone at some point who gains some sort of fame, but the true artists will deal with it and get back to the real meaning of what they do. I feel blessed to be able to do my music my own way. I also control the recording of it all my own way. That is all I ever dreamed of. When I was a kid dreaming of being a musician I never dreamed of fame. I dreamed of being able to make music that took me off this planet and my dream has come true. I forgot to dream of money :-) So, be careful what you wish for (ha!) Gigs have pretty much faded for me because I won't play a place that isn't a good fit. I will always be thrilled to play live when I am left to do as I want in a supportive environment. That is what has knocked me down from 200 plus gigs a year to a couple dozen. Anyway, this is what makes my music sound 3D to me. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
This discussion has been most interesting. Kind of like what "is", "is". Having said that I agree with Kingley. There are players who possess that additional skill. I think just playing all the time with a band is huge. We can all sit at home and become very proficient with our scales and practice sessions, but there is no substitute for playing with a band. That additional dimension could just be how synchronized you become with your band mates. The above example with Greunling is great. Tight tight tight. Another skill often ignored is the practice it takes to sing and play, as in what "Rice Miller" does. Even if you can sing, playing second position in between verses is crazy hard.
Harpwrench - Yes the dynamics in each note definitely have a lot to do with it. The other points you make also make a lot of sense as always. Overall I suspect you have hit the nail on the head Joe. Thank you for taking the time to give your opinion and advice.
It's highly appreciated as is of course the opinions everybody else too
You're welcome bro. To add a little clarification, what I'm saying is that it's the player creating the dynamics. But the gear needs to allow the player to relax, and let it happen.
I can't watch the videos but I'll jump in anyway - I wonder if it has a lot to do with comfort zone. Once you achieve a "certain level" I think that frees you up to let parts of your playing go different places and add little nuances that you maybe didn't have the ability to allow in before because your concentration was else where. Just a thought. ---------- If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
Dynamics,for sure,plays a part in it. I also think it's all those little nuances that aren't readily obvious but add up to make a difference in their sound.It's also about their own individuality and ability to impart their own unique style to what they play. That and a big badass harp amp!
Yes I agree with most of what has been said. It's an interesting subject to me because it's that last few percent that separates great from good. We all hear good harp players all the time but truly great ones are a much, much rarer breed.
Joe Spiers was totally correct to my mind when he said, "I think possibly what you're talking about has to do with dynamics. Not only dynamics within a phrase, but the dynamics of the notes themselves"
Take Steve Guyger as an example he never seems to play superfluously. He takes his time and colours each and every note to bring it to life in a three dimensional sense. In the clip I used of Dennis Gruenling playing, he does the exact same thing to my ear.
Now that is something I'm going to have lots of fun (and frustration no doubt) striving for.
Playing harp with great breath support is something I would add to harpwrench's comments which are right on. That goes right with the screaming analogy. ---------- Mike Fugazzi http://www.myspace.com/niterailband http://www.youtube.com/user/NiteRail http://www.twitter.com/NiteRail http://www.facebook.com/mike.fugazzi
Dynamics is so import, but without breath control, there is no dynamics and no variety of tone colors or control, period. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Kingley - you might want to consider recording everything you do. Play it back and really listen. You've got solid skills. When you are playing solo, you've gotta carry the groove yourself. That's hard to do.
When you've got a good band behind you (like Guyger and Greunling do), the other players help in propelling the groove. When you are playing with a great guitarist like Robert Jr, Luther Tucker or Louis Myers, they will add little subtle fills to add depth and give you a chance to breathe.
Listen to some of the lesser known harp players guys that recorded with those guys and you'll hear a lot of that same depth. Listen to guys like Little Willie Anderson, Good Rockin' Charles, Big Leon Brooks, etc...
One more thing, guys like Guyger have had years to listen to their playing and decide what sounds good and what doesn't sound so good. Doing less of what doesn't sound good is important.
A dimension not only of sight and sound, but of mind. A journey into a wondrous land of imagination. Next stop, the Twilight Zone Harp Player!
Jason and Dennis are both mentioned as having this mystical 3D sound. But both of their tones are totally different. Dennis gets that fat trombone like sound. Sometimes, and it just may be the quality of the YouTube recording, but it can be too "fat"...sounding like he is underwater or something. Jasons tone cuts though or has more of a bite (but not meaning a lesser quality). I love them both.
I would second HarpNinja's comment on breath support. Play right from your belly with your whole chest as a air column/resonance chamber and your sound will jump out of you, not just slip out of your upper chest/neck.
soem very interesting points , I do agree with having a bigger amp helps as it spreads the sound , ideally 4x10 for me , although 2x10 can be great as well , but this thing about your whole self being an acoustic chamber , singing from the stomach is what i learn't to really get big , deep vocals with power , if you transfer that to the harp , basically your singing with the harp instead of words , you use it as your voice , and throw yourself into it , i think it takes a certain amount of confidence and being totally at one with the music and the band , things can get in the way , such as a really small sqawky amp , and other band members that don't respect you when it's your turn to play .I find the more i can hear in the mix , i can play or sing better it's that simple ! good luck , Kingly , and i love that mic , space age Astatic chromium beauty that it is !
i agree that some players have 3D sound...not necessarily the most famous ones. The best player that I know of here in Indonesia has it. A very sonorous effect. It's not just live...i sat with him outside and it's definitely there.
I listened to him perform then played in a club with a nice sound system. I got very nice tone and nice reaction from the crowd with that system, but there was no 3D effect for sure.
Some players manage to get that added dimension. I'd lean more in the direction of projection. Last night in that show a 12-year-old girl belted out a blues song on national TV and stole the show from musicians and singers who have been performing for decades. They were playing with stunned looks on their faces.
If you didn't see the girl you'd guess she was late 20's and about 200 pounds. I think she was projecting and reverberating the sound perfectly. It probably works similar with the harp, the reeds taking the place of the vocal chords.
MagicPauley - Some good advice. Lol! Yes the T3 is indeed a space age Astatic chromium beauty.
Bluemoose - Yes again I agree with that partially. That is a great way to achieve "big fat tone". What I'm referring though to is another quality altogether that goes beyond that. Some players have it, but many more (including some famous ones) just have a 2D tone that whilst big and fat still sounds flat and lifeless somehow.
Thanks for some great advice guys. For me I think Joe Spiers definitely hit it on the head when he wrote about the dynamics of the note.
Music has mathematical tendencies as well. Cancellation and reinforcement, I mean. Additive and subtractive things occur, especially within a live band context...but not only there.
I wrote and recorded a song for my son's high school graduation called "Off you may go."
When I finished laying down tracks, I was fooling around with the song way later in the morning than I should have been..around 3am. As I played with the reverb on one of the non-rhythm guitar tracks, I changed the parameters and began to increase the percentage of it in the mix...suddenly, i heard a harmony I didn't remember playing, on an instrument I couldn't identify. It was mandolin-like, but i didn't play the mandolin for another 3 years! This moment put the flea in my ear to learn it though. I turned the reverb back down and it faded away. Turned it up, and back it came..until i turned it up too far and it became mush. It was nothing more than additive and subtractive frequencies at the right time....the math of music.
Some recordings catch this, some don't. That's why I love to play live so much..you can hear it all and react to it, play within it. even then, you don't know for sure what every audience member is hearing in their particular seat with their particular ears...but your odds are better at sounding "3D" at least.
It's a gift. A lucky few are born to it, most aren't. In my humble opinion, leastways.
Two guys playing the same harmonica play the exact same 3 note riff, one of these guys has the '3D tone', the other is 2D - even though they play the exact same lick, the 3D guy makes it sound better. Is it because he knows how to shape his mouth better? Is it his breathing? Is it because he practices more? No. It's because he has the feeling, the 3D tone, the magic - whatever you wanna call it. It's what sets true musicians apart from mere technicians. Some blessed folks have it in bucketloads, others just a little -but it's this intangible substance that makes great players great. You can't buy it, can't practice for it, can't be let in on any big secret about it - you either have it or you don't! Unfair I know, but there you go!
