Bluefinger
62 posts
Feb 11, 2010
1:36 AM
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I have a problem ... maybe you have give me some advice. Currently I am using mostly Seydel Solist Pros with 1847 covers. I love their build quality, the sturdy and smooth steel covers, the rounded sealed wood combs, the solid feel, the playability, the sound, their high level of quality control and the slightly wider hole spacing. They would be the perfect harp but there's one thing that annoys me to death. I blow out reeds like mad. Longevity is a big problem. There are no single replacement reeds available so this thing is getting very expensive. What would be a good alternative? I know that no harp is made to last forever but I want something that lasts a bit longer. I am willing to make compromises as well. My highest priority is better longevity and good playability. I like sealed wood combs or anything solid. I like to avoid plastic if possible but unsealed wood is not an option. I also prefer not to have slotted covers. I like to tinker but since the harp is not my primary instrument I would like to have something that comes close to my wish list out of the box. Any ideas? I guess the MB Deluxe would be the way to go if it had non slotted covers ...
thanks
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2010 1:37 AM
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Kingley
835 posts
Feb 11, 2010
1:49 AM
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I know this is going to sound harsh and is probably not want you want to hear.
Any brand of harp you buy will encounter the same problem.
This is because problem is most definitely your technique. You are using way too much breath force when playing.
A common mistake that players make is to play too hard.
If your technique is good then playing with less breath force will actually make your playing far more resonant and you will find that harps last a lot longer (in some cases for years). Your playing will be more fluent, you will be able to navigate around the harp faster and your overall tone will improve in leaps and bounds.
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tookatooka
1178 posts
Feb 11, 2010
2:10 AM
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@Bluefinger@ Don't know where you are but if in Europe or close have you tried Harponline? You could get the MB Deluxe and then get coverplates from say the SP20 (Assuming they fit). Harponline do lots of replacement parts.
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Pimpinella
79 posts
Feb 11, 2010
2:36 AM
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I'd try to contact Bertram Becher at Seydel. He always tries to find a solution for customer problems, maybe he can help do suppy you with a "custom" assortment of reeds.
Besides of that i second tooka, that calling Michael Timler of Harponline might reveal a solution. You might know that the MB Deluxe comb will still swell slightly, if you wan't a solution that does not swell at all you'd probably want to try the MB Crossover. Right now Harponline has all keys available again. I'm sure Michael will try to help you.
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2010 2:37 AM
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Bluefinger
63 posts
Feb 11, 2010
2:46 AM
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It might be my technique and i am well aware of that but I never had that problem while I was playing Hohner MS harps or Lee Oscars. I used these a lot while my technique was a lot worse than today for sure and I still have and use 10+ year old Hohners and LOs which seem to be indestructable ... but those Seydels ... man, I seem to kill a G, Ab and A almost every month. I practice about two hours a day and maybe that's how long they will last if they are played that much but if that's the case I have to switch to cheaper ones, at least until my technique improves further. I simply can't afford it anymore.
The Problem with the MB Deluxes is, that SP20 and MS covers don't fit. I'll have to check, if I can make the 1847 covers fit but I am afraid that the MB is too small. Availability is not the problem, I can buy them in local stores.
I do work on my technique very hard but until I can make a Sexdel last for a year or more I need to get something that is either cheaper or lasts longer.
Just out of curiosity ... are there Seydel players out there who can comment on how long their harps last?
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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Bluefinger
64 posts
Feb 11, 2010
2:48 AM
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@Pimpinella ... yes indeed, Bertram is a great guy. Teir service is top notch!
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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Kingley
836 posts
Feb 11, 2010
3:02 AM
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Bluefinger - Sorry if I sounded at all condescending. That wasn't my intention.
It's strange that the Seydels don't last as long as the other brands. Having said that though I do recall someone saying that Seydel state that they set up their harps for playability not longevity. I suspect that may be the cause of the problem. The tolerances of the gaps,etc may be too close for your style.
The MB Deluxe may be a better option. Are the slotted covers really that much of a problem?
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Bluefinger
66 posts
Feb 11, 2010
3:08 AM
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No offense taken ...
Well, the slotted covers are not really a problem but I simply prefer the sound of non slotted ones. Maybe it just needs some getting used to ...
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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Ant138
309 posts
Feb 11, 2010
3:09 AM
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Hey Bluefinger, your not the first person to complain about this problem with Seydel.
Ive heard it so many times on this forum and it kinda scares me.
I now only use Seydel(Solist Pro and 1847's)but its never happened to me yet and i've been playing them for about 8 months now. My first Seydel, the Solist in Ab is still going strong and i put them through their paces every day.
I hope i never encounter the same problem as i think i've finally found my harp of choice.
Good luck.
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Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2010 3:10 AM
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Kingley
837 posts
Feb 11, 2010
3:15 AM
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I think you'd get used to them very quickly.
I would suggest sending Michael at harponline.de an email and asking him if he has any closed covers which would fit an MB Deluxe.
You could also try the Hering Vintage 1923. I seem to recall they have closed covers although I could be wrong.
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Pimpinella
81 posts
Feb 11, 2010
3:32 AM
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The Hering Vintage has MB like cover plates.
about Seydel reeds: It's not the setup, it's the brass quality and/or the reed profile that makes them die early i think.
Some players just don't really break reeds, some do. Some break 5d, some 6b or other reeds...
bluefinger, you should probably try an 1847. re-reading what you wrote above it would probably fit perfectly.
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Bluefinger
67 posts
Feb 11, 2010
3:37 AM
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@Ant138: the funny thing is that I seem to have some Seydels that last as long as any other harp. I bought me a set of 1847s and my Bb, C, D are still working great. The problem seems to be limited to the lower keyed ones, at least in my case. I do have one Ab Solist Pro as well that is working fine for a while now but the other one needs new reedplates regularely. Some seem to last and others don't. Can't comment on the longevity of my E and F 1847s since I rarely ever use them.
The Hering 1923s have slotted covers as well. I have two of those but they are the worst harps i own. They're very leaky, have weak tone and the metal tastes funny.
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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Kingley
838 posts
Feb 11, 2010
3:40 AM
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"I have two of those but they are the worst harps i own. They're very leaky, have weak tone and the metal tastes funny."
Oh dear! Best not get any of those then.
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Bluefinger
68 posts
Feb 11, 2010
3:41 AM
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Pimpinella, I do own 1847s as well and they don't last any longer than the Solist Pros. It always seems like a 50/50 chance if you get one that lasts or one that dies early.
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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Bluefinger
69 posts
Feb 11, 2010
3:44 AM
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@Kingley: They used to be Rod Piazza's favorite harps to (at least that's what the ads said) ... different strokes for different folks I guess
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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Kingley
839 posts
Feb 11, 2010
3:52 AM
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Yes I suspect Rod was getting them for free and having them worked on. He was always a Marine Band 1896 guy before that.
I have only ever tried one 1923 and thought it sounded too bright for my taste.
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Ant138
313 posts
Feb 11, 2010
3:58 AM
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Im also working on a set of 1847's but they dont come cheap. Ive got a Vintage 1923 in Bb and its a good harp for the price but not even close to a Seydel in my opinion. There is a funny taste to the coverplates but it does fade in time but i still find it takes alot of effort to play the 1923 but at £18 you get what you pay for but it does beat alot of other cheap harps out there.
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Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2010 4:02 AM
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clarksdale
42 posts
Feb 11, 2010
4:00 AM
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My 2 cents. Yeah, Hering 1923 vintage are the worst harps i've ever owned. I paid $40 each too, had $3 harps that were better.
Have you tried any SUZUKI's? I love the HarpMaster BUT you'd probably be better off with a BluesMaster or a ProMaster, the promaster has a Metal Comb though if that's a problem.
Seems like maybe you should stick with the Lee Oskars, I've heard they are like cockroaches, I've got 3 that a buddy gave me used and they are still going strong.
Been playing Special 20's lately, but i hear those don't last long.
Just ordered some Johnson Blues Kings after reading some reviews. They are like $3 a piece! BUT I've read they are pretty good after a little gapping.
Good luck friend. If nothing else, just stick with the Hohner Blues Harp MS and or the Lee Oskar.
cheers,
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$Daddy Rich$
"The Blues is Ok!"
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Bluefinger
70 posts
Feb 11, 2010
4:09 AM
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Suzukis ... nope, I never touched one in my life before. I might give them a try, what the heck ...
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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rbeetsme
193 posts
Feb 11, 2010
4:22 AM
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Bushman Delta Frost has a no blow out guarantee, nice easy to play harp too.
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barbequebob
454 posts
Feb 11, 2010
7:21 AM
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Truth be told, it absolute IS your playing technique that`s the problem. Seydels and Herings use a much tighter slot tolerance than most Hohners do. The tighter the tolerance, the SOFTER the breath force needed to do ANYTHING on it and all custom harps, these are CONSIDERABLY tighter. Tighter tolerances make everything easier to play, BUT the big drawback is that in the hands of a poorly skilled player who plays with too much breath force and has no real breath control (which unfortunately, is too often what describes the way 98% of newbies and 50-75% of intermediate players technique), it makes harps more easily prone to getting blown out. You need to work on breath control ASAP and yot will find your agility and tone will be greatly improved, you`ll rarely get winded, and gain financilly because the rate of harp blow out will be DRAMATICALLY reduced. By using too much breath force all the time, you`re being your own worst enemy.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Ryan
142 posts
Feb 11, 2010
7:58 AM
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I do think part of the problem may be that you are blowing/drawing too hard. That's something you'll need to actively practice and get use to. But you may also want to give Suzuki harps a try. The Lee Oskars are notorious for taking a lot of abuse and not blowing out. Part of the reason is that they use short reeds, I'm not positive but I think the hohner MS line may also. The shorter reeds tend to last longer than the long slot reeds, there's not quite as much stress as they vibrate.
Imagine you have a really thin wooden dowel that's about a foot and a half long, and you take one end and you flip it up and down so it's moving like a vibrating reed. Now imagine doing the same thing with the same type of dowel, but now it's 5 feet long, it would be much easier for the longer one to brake. I know that wasn't a great example, but it's all I could come up with off the top of my head.
Anyways, all the Seydels use long slot reeds, and all the handmade hohners below D use long slot reeds. The effect is increased on the lower key harps (i.e. G, Ab, A) because the reeds get even longer, the lower the pitch. I reccomend the Suzuki harps because all of their harps(except for the manji, the fabulous, and maybe the firebreath) all use short slot reeds.
I hope you can get this problem worked out, I know how frustrating and expensive it can be to constantly have to replace broken intstruments.
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Bluefinger
71 posts
Feb 11, 2010
8:38 AM
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@barbequebob: I do know there is a lot to be learned and that's what I'm doing at least two hours a day. I would practice more if I had the time. I work on my tone, breath control, breathing patterns, intonation, lip pursing and tongue blocking but I cannot do all this by twiddling my thumbs. I need harps to play on and until I'm good enough to make a Seydel last for years I need something that is either more sturdy or at least cheaper. That's my whole point.
I used to noodle around on harps about 20 years ago for the first time and have picked them up from time ever since but since last summer I am trying to really learn how to play. Being a guitar player for 25+ years I know that it is a lot harder to learn an instrument at the age of 40 than it was at the age of 14. I will probably blow out a couple more harps until I'm getting there so I just want to save some money one way ot another ...
I'll give the Suzukis a try ...
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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Pimpinella
83 posts
Feb 11, 2010
8:45 AM
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BBQ, current production Hohner handmade harmonicas have no doubt tighter slot tolerances that Seydel ad Hering. And they have a long life, too. Hohner has worked a lot on this over the last ten years. Thank god for Rick Epping who resurrected Hohner's approach to build good harmonicas.
Suzuki's Fire Breath has short slots too, but opposed to their promotion there are problems with reeds breaking on this particular model. Still it's a very good harmonica. I had a full set, but sold it in favor of MBs
I pretty much like Suzuki's Harpmaster. Probably the best Special 20 type harmonica besides the Special 20.
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ness
145 posts
Feb 11, 2010
8:58 AM
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Get a set of B-Radicals, an assortment of reeds and a teeny little wrench. :^)
Seriously -- I've never heard enough good about the Seydels to justify the high cost. Where do you get 1847 covers?
I'm still awfully new to this, but I started with a Suzuki Promaster, then tried a Bluesmaster, Firebreath and Harpmaster. Also Hohner 150th Anniversary, which I'm told is like their Big River, but with a clear plastic comb, and a Lee Oskar.
I have really grown to prefer the full-length covers like Promaster, Bluesmaster and Firebreath have. I really like the heft and quality of the Promaster -- sound too, of course. Also - replacement reedplates are available, as are half-valved reed plates. Bluesmaster and Harpmaster are fine, and sound good -- just don't like them as much. Firebreath is verry nice, and sounds great.
I gave away my Lee Oskar, never play the Hohner. Saving my pennys for a B-Rad
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Bluefinger
73 posts
Feb 11, 2010
9:13 AM
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"Where do you get 1847 covers? "
I got me a set of 1847s but replaced the reedplates with Solist Pro ones on those that died. The comb is the same so they are technically Solist Pro's with 1847 covers now. Nevertheless you can get the covers only at the Seydel online shop. They are the nicest and highest quality covers I have seen so far.
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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blogward
83 posts
Feb 11, 2010
9:35 AM
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Ha! Somebody else got shafted by Seydel! I've played Hohners of all kinds for 30 years plus, and can count the number of reeds I've blown out on one hand (I play soft, mostly). Seydel? Two reeds in four harps in a month.
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ness
147 posts
Feb 11, 2010
10:47 AM
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@bluefinger said: They are the nicest and highest quality covers I have seen so far.
Have you seen Promaster covers? They've got to be twice as thick as most of the others I've held. And, they're plated real nice -- it's hard to scratch them.
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barbequebob
461 posts
Feb 11, 2010
1:09 PM
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Pimpinella, I do agree with you on the present Hohner production because it is CLEARLY light years better than it was from 1981-1995. I had a long phone conversation with Rick Epping in 1995 about all that and he told me they were finally retooling in a big way that hadn't been done for decades so he does deserve a lot of credit, but it also took getting rid of the last living Hohner as well because many of the changes you see would've never happened for the better if there was still a Hohner in the company. In their bad quality years, they were using wide tolerances, short slot reeds, plus a thinner, harder brass, and even worse, the newer people they were putting in to do the tuning were often poorly trained and they use to leave huge filing gouges on the reeds which severly weakened them.
I personally find the short slot reeds tone to be too bright and thin for my taste and often have severe torsional problems with OB's.
The Seydel covers can be ordered from their website, but make sure you tell them for which keys, as the covers for Low F and lower has a slightly different shape to elimate the reed rattling on the cover plates.
The Hering 1923 Vintage Harps uses a tighter slot tolerances PLYS a thicker reed plate (1.20mm) (NOT to be confused with thicker reeds, which is something entirely different), which also makes them play louder as well as brighter, but it also makes them more prone to getting blown out in the hands of a poorly skilled player with no breath control and who is always playing too hard.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Feb 11, 2010 1:12 PM
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nacoran
1100 posts
Feb 11, 2010
2:51 PM
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The only time I've ever blown out a harp is when I was playing with a band unmiked. As soon as someone else pulls out an instrument you have to amp up. Practice playing as soft as you can sometimes just to become more conscious of how you are playing.
If that doesn't work, get a harp with cheaper to replace reed plates and looser tolerances, but splurge and get yourself some custom combs so you don't lose out on the comfort. Several guys on the forum sell custom combs for several brands out of a wide variety of materials. There is even a guy I found on Google who makes titanium combs.
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Hobostubs Ashlock
446 posts
Feb 11, 2010
2:59 PM
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i hear you ive blown 2 reeds plates plus the original set all in less than 6 months,i know its me,but i tried i really did,i even loosened the reed plates just a little to let them leak some,they play great until they bust,I envey players that can make them last,but i cant so far.Ive gone back to lee oskars cause i can play them over a year with no problem,although there harder to play compared to the seydels but im out of work so i play what lasts the longest.and still has a half way decent sound,Also Huang star performers hold up great and play nice if you tweak em some.In the mean time im trying to get better breath control,Cause i wont get another high end harp untl i can.
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congaron
520 posts
Feb 11, 2010
4:43 PM
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I have been playing for right under 1 year. I began playing with a band about a month after i started. I have blown one reed flat..the 4 hole draw on a suzuki harp master on a night when the sound guy blew the tweeters in our monitors and none of us could hear much of anything except the lead singer and the bass player.
I have harpmasters (5 of them) marine bands, special 20's, blues harps, one big river, and two promasters.
I haven't seen any evidence of reliability problems in any of them and they all get played A LOT. I say switch brands and if you choose suzuki, you will be forced to play softer. They will choke out with excessive force. My harpmasters and promasters play the easiest of all my harps...easier than i want them to sometimes.
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Bluefinger
80 posts
Feb 15, 2010
7:49 AM
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I feel a little better now. I was at a session last weekend and talked to some experienced harp players. They all have the same problems with Seydels ... outstanding harps but some of them die really quick, sometimes within days. Since my other harps hold up fine my technique doesn't seem to be THAT bad.
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If it ain't broke you just haven't fixed it enough ...
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harmonicanick
603 posts
Feb 15, 2010
11:34 AM
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I never realised there were so many blown reeds out there before this forum.
I have to agree with Kingley and Bob in that it is always playing too hard which does this.
I am around many experienced players, and the only reed that goes for us is one in a harp thats seen hours of playing and is tired.
We use all the makes, Seydel etc and dont have this problem.
Oh and you could try replacing the broken reed
Last Edited by on Feb 15, 2010 11:37 AM
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Blueharper
23 posts
Feb 15, 2010
11:44 AM
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I have a set of Ben Bouman's Beta harps.1847s.I have yet to blow a reed.And the thing I like about them is I can blow them harder.At least a harder attack.
So I guess it is just different strokes.
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Gwood420
92 posts
Feb 15, 2010
11:46 AM
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this may have been said, but...
i noticed when i went from my bluesmasters to my seydel 1847, that i had to adjust the stringth of my in/exhails.. it takes way less to get the note.. if i didnt make that adjustment, i would have probably blown out a reed by now too.. i just tried playing my bluesmaster the first time sence i got the seydels, and i couldnt get a clean note without trying harder.. the difference is amazing..
there is a difference in technique needed for the different harps for sure...
Last Edited by on Feb 15, 2010 11:47 AM
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Diggsblues
157 posts
Feb 15, 2010
12:37 PM
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One thing that will make you play too hard is a band
that plays too loud and you have hard time getting above the band volume. I usually like to only play in bands with one guitar.
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