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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Jam session terminology ( a real life story)
Jam session terminology ( a real life story)
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Kingley
686 posts
Jan 25, 2010
7:39 AM
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I was at a jam on Saturday, playing blues with a bunch of musicians with whom I have played for years.
Anyway I call a shuffle in "A' I clearly state "bring it down from the 5" and I count it off "1, 2.., 1,2,3," whilst also tapping my foot in plain view. Just before I can shout "4" one of the guitarists says to me "what kind of shuffle, uh-uh I mean what speed?"
I'm like "what the F***!!!!!. Now you have to understand that this guy is a multi-instrumentalist and teaches music for a living!
Anyway later in the evening I also call a Rhumba in "G" and again I begin to count it in, the same guy stops me and says "what kind of feel?" Luckily the audience take this all lightheartedly, but to me it just made us all look like a right bunch of idiots.
Now I can't help but wonder why guitarists in particular seem to struggle with terminology such as:
It's a march in "A"
It's a Shuffle in "F"
It's a Rhumba in "G"
It's a loping shuffle in E"
It's the boogie chillin riff in A and stays on the 1 chord for the whole tune.
It's a slow blues in Bb. I'll bring us in from the 5, come in on the turnaround
Especially when the time signature is counted off (correctly before you ask) and the bass player and drummer (whom I had never played with before) understand the terms perfectly.
This seems to happen quite often as well.
Any ideas as to why guitarists in particular seem to be so clueless at jams?
Is it me?
Am I doing something wrong and not explaining it properly to them?
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Hobostubs Ashlock
421 posts
Jan 25, 2010
8:40 AM
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a guitar was my 1st instrument ive played years but i struggle with it a lot,because what i think is,that for me and most my friends who learned to play learned from each other,or just played one they had laying around,maybe read a magazine art.once in a while a lot of the stuff is passed along from one budddy to the next,be it right or wrong,Dont get me wrong theres some that go and really learn it that way and some that take lessons and learn like a instrument should be learned but there so many guitar players or people that have tried to play that it seems like you meet a lot of unschooled guitar players,even some real good players might not had much training,With me trying to learn the harp maybe becuase i didnt learn the guitar like i should ,but there seems to be a more lets learn the thereory behind music for the harp,which is giving me a better under standing of how it works for guitar. therory is therory,but i didnt try as hard when i just started playing guitar it was like hey buddy show me some power cords so i can rock,Harp players seem more into what makes it tick,I mentioned tone to a guitar friend i know,and said with harp its all about tone good tone and you can play 1 note and sound good,and he said he hadnt thought about tone in years,what with all the effects just push a button,but with harp it seems like we take small things like that a step farther,NOTE THIS JUST A OPION AND NOT SAYING THERE AINT VERY PROFICENT GUITAR PLAYERS THAT DONT KNOW THEORY BUT THAT THERE ARE A LOT MORE THAT DONT ITS A OPTICAL ILLUSION OF NUMBERS,NOW I need to LIGHT MY PIPE it JUST WENT OUT LATER PEACE HARP ON FELLOW HARPSTERS, Oh yea I mentioned the harp forum to the same guitar friend the other day,and how tight of a group it seems compared to guitar he said Lol were like the FreeMasons ,i laughed and thought yea i guess we are.
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2010 8:43 AM
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Jim Rumbaugh
132 posts
Jan 25, 2010
9:23 AM
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I think it's a little more simple.
Most guitatr players are accustom to strumming the chords and having everyone follow their lead. I know there are times when I'm with the gang and no-one can get the idea of what to play from my description, so.... I say,"hand me a guitar and let me play it how I want it."
The "call outs" that Kingley posted are great examples of what every harp player needs to learn IF HE WANTS TO LEAD.
Another way to comunicate style is to call out a tune with a similar feel and structure. You can say, "It's like Kansas City in G"
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waltertore
151 posts
Jan 25, 2010
9:40 AM
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how about when they shout out "do the boogaloo". I learned that one down in Texas. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year.
my music
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barbequebob
381 posts
Jan 25, 2010
9:48 AM
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In most white music bands, the guitarist is often considered the best and most knowledgeable musician on the bandstand and nearly all white players are almost automatically gonna follow the guitar player.
However, once you get into the pro level, this becomes UNTRUE because the guitar player isn't the only knowledgeable musician on the bandstand.
With many guitarists on an open jam bandstand, it's really solos first and everything else is dead last and just their chordal vocabulary alone is horribly limited to just the basic major, minor, 7ths, maybe augmented chords and barre chords in all 12 keys just in 1 or 2 different formations on the fretboard and that's mainly it and sometimes a few will know what a 6th or a 9th chord is. That's OK for rock, where many rock guitarists aren't too good at rhythm, but with blues or black music in general, that's a kiss of death and the solos first everything dead last types you see in a jam, if they ever worked in bands where it was largely black musicians, trust me, their heads would get handed to them in a nanosecond and they wouldn't hesitate to get really cruel about it.
Big thing with jams, especially open jams, don't have high expectations musically because 80% of the time, you may get disappointed because with guitar players, when it comes to groove, most of them wouldn't understand it if it hit them square in the head.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2010 12:55 PM
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harmonicanick
565 posts
Jan 25, 2010
10:04 AM
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There's your answer Kingley! It's not yoooou..
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HarmonicaMick
45 posts
Jan 25, 2010
10:23 AM
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My number 1 rule on the bandstand is: listen to and watch the other players. Maybe this fella was having a really off day, no sleep the night before or something. It's hard to imagine anyone being that dense as their normal self.
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YouTube SlimHarpMick
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Randy G. Blues
152 posts
Jan 25, 2010
11:04 AM
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My basic rule is try to NOT look like an ass on stage. When i first started out I remember some of the directions that the frontman gave, and if I didn't understand I would just nod and wait a bar or two before coming in, then do a few fill to be sure I was right, and THEN I would go for it.
But there are all levels of players who hit the stage at an open mic show, so you have to be forgiving (or at least, tolerant enough not to draw a piece out.. ;-)
Three weeks ago I was front man and had two guitarists, neither of whom knew B minor well enough, and at least one of them went into the wrong chord on the IV, and I had to sing around it (or try to sing with it...).
So I am now concentrating on having a set of pretty standard tunes, most all I IV V, and mostly in A, E, D, or G.
Last week, you should have seen the look I got when I asked one fellow if he could play the Robert Johnson tune "They're Red Hot" and I sang the first verse for him at tempo.
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nacoran
874 posts
Jan 25, 2010
12:25 PM
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I was working out a new song with my guitar players. One was a power chord kind of guy, the other used to play drums. I'd written the melody without an instrument, just singing it, and we were trying to get some music for it. I had a beat in my head, I came in on the 4 beat and it kept screwing up the power chord guy. He insisted I had to come in on the 1 beat. Thankfully the ex-drummer was able to explain it to him. All instruments have people with different level of theory playing them. A couple of minutes of talking before you play can be real useful to figure out what level everyone is on or to explain anything people don't know.
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barbequebob
383 posts
Jan 25, 2010
12:29 PM
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One thing with jams, keep it simple and strictly 12 bar because if you call out tunes that are either 8 bar tunes like Honest I Do, Key To The Highway, Raining In My Heart, or 16 bar blues like Diamonds At Your Feet, My Babe, the vast majority of the guitar players are gonna be more from a rock background and calling for stuff like that is asking for a freaking train wreck in no uncertain terms.
There are tons of guitar players in open jams that are clearly not ready to be onstage playing with others yet, just like there are harp players clearly in that category.
In most white music bands, the guitar player is the 'star of the show' and like some people in a work environment, sporrts environment, etc., don't like feel as if their being subservient to what they think is a lowly piece of crap instrument like harmonica because too often harp players themselves have a bad reputation as being the dumbest musician on the bandstand and often don't command much respect (and too often the average player unknowingly perpetuates this negative stereotype).
Even when I hosted jams, if there were more than 2 guitarists on the bandstand, it was very common to see each othem play the exact same rhythm part, partially because they didn't know any better (tho this is very common among rock guitarists) or they're trying to hide a huge lack of rhythm playing skills (which unfortunately, is also very common), and a really good rhythm guitarist from any genre can find either a different voicing of the chord, or counter rhythms that work with it, but unfortunately, the average guitar jammer lacks that ability to do so because they often spend 95% of their time learning only the solos.
Keeping things in common keys is also important because if you play in keys that are considered horn keys, like Bb-Ab-F-Db, you're asking for trouble as well.
In an interview in Guitar Player magazine in the early 90's, guitarist Junior Watson often complained about how many guitar players often lack even barely decent rhythm playing skills and have problems backing up anybody, let alone themselves, or a harp player, and the first thing I always look for with guitar players are their rhythm chops.
Since I also play a little bit of guitar myself, I can quickly fish out who has or who hasn't got any real rhythm playing skills in a nanosecond, the guitar players who usually have poor rhythm chops often have horrible time as well and that you can see by the truckload in nearly every open jam, but in the 'special invite' or snob jam, you will seldom see that because there's a minimum skill level needed before you get invited to one, and for me, those tend to have far fewer headaches.
Another thing I would see is poorly skilled guitarists in the open jams who take damned near 15-20 minutes just to set their pedals up alone, and even worse, take almost as long to tune their guitars, and on top of that, what really annoys me is when they use strings with a guage 10's and smaller, they go out of tune really quick and break like crazy, and have to keep retuning after every song, which slows everything down.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2010 12:54 PM
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barbequebob
384 posts
Jan 25, 2010
12:30 PM
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Musicians who've started out as drummers first usually tend to have a much better sense of groove and time.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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bluzlvr
302 posts
Jan 25, 2010
1:22 PM
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This thread reminds me of a jam nightmare I went through a while back.
It was my turn to get up there with a bunch of stangers and I had to play through the PA.
Somebody called out SRV's "Empty Arms" in C.
I thought 'Cool, I'll grab a Bb and play 3rd position'.
The one guitar player started the song out playing something that in no way resembled the song at a volume that was at about 1000 db's.
The other guitarist, of course, had to match his volume.
Naturally, I couldn't hear a single note I was playing.
It was one of those "Get me off of this stage right NOW!" nights.
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jawbone
241 posts
Jan 25, 2010
1:25 PM
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Well, I'm just happy that Bob has grouped some of those guitar players in with us dumb, white, mediocre harp players. Sure takes a load off my back.
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If it ain't got harp - it ain't really blues!!!!
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nacoran
876 posts
Jan 25, 2010
2:14 PM
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I don't think the stage is a sacred place for only the chosen few. Playing on stage is a skill you have to learn and the sooner you get up there the sooner you start learning that skill. Just don't oversell yourself. If you're a beginner, let people know and ask for help. Find the right venue. Don't try to play Carnegie Hall on the first night. I used to go to an open mic on a regular basis (usually just to watch). It was fun to watch performers develop over the years.
If you:
Stunk but were friendly= light applause
Rocked but were a jerk= people listened
Rocked and were friendly= people whooped and hollered. Stunk and were a jerk= The stand up comics would mock you.
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Kingley
688 posts
Jan 25, 2010
2:40 PM
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Well in the case of the guys I was jamming with, they have all been playing for years in various bands. I suspect that BBQ Bob is right and it's because they tend to come at blues from a rock (or rock blues) perspective.
They are only concerned with their solos and not the groove (which is of course the most important thing) and no sense of dynamics. It's a shame because they really could be very good musicians (as opposed to soloists) if they took the time to learn those two things.
It kind of amuses and frustrates me in equal measures that I know these things and they don't. They look to me to front the jam band and to decide the numbers we do, whilst they want to just drink beer and play solos.
I nearly always wanted to play either simple brass riffs or rhythm behind them and if any singers who get up want to do a number they don't know, the guitarists look straight at me to see if I know it.
Funny old world!
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nacoran
878 posts
Jan 25, 2010
2:51 PM
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Kingley- Maybe you could find or create a cheat sheet for them with some beat counts and basic progressions. I have to confess that I still take my cues most of the time from my drummer/guitar player, although I'm learning. At least they know enough to ask someone who knows. That's a lot better than them assuming they know and doing it wrong.
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barbequebob
390 posts
Jan 25, 2010
3:21 PM
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Nacoran, I really agree with your previous post a lot because there`s a lot of truth in it. Cheat sheets may be OK with some but with a lot of guitar jammers, it probably won`t go over well with those with oversized egos (AKA legends in their own minds....what little their is of, and they need the Simon Cowell treatment big time).l
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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phogi
208 posts
Jan 25, 2010
4:05 PM
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I'd like to be more descriptive when talking to the bands at a jam. But, to be honest, I have no idea what the right thing to say is. Several times I was real descriptive, and they look at me like I'm crazy. When I gloss over, they seem happy and we just play. I'm' somewhat frustrated in this aspect. I guess I'd just like to know all the things that are acceptable to say.
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Jim Rumbaugh
135 posts
Jan 25, 2010
5:11 PM
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I want repeat what has already been said here.
Keep it simple
standard 12 bar progression.
keys of E, G , A or C.
describe the speed ( fast or slow )
describe the grove ( shuffle or stright quarter notes)
count it out.
If you can sing, sing it.
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Nastyolddog
92 posts
Jan 25, 2010
5:17 PM
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Hi Bro's Randy.G.B Bang spot on the money first sentance thats how jam session player starts if he don't get it first time wait pick them up on the turn around,,this is how to aproach the situation spot on comment,,so there still going a bit slow don't expect the band to see or hear you foot over the music,,or be ready for a 1234 here we go the guitarist is looking at the chicks you often get the? say what from the guitarist,,lean into the mic say real cool pick it up a little Bro's while motioning your hand in an upward directions you know up up they got the beat lean into the mic a bit more say real cool to the Bro's yeh man where cooking pick em up on the turn around have some fun ,,never assume you are in control at a Jam night it just don't happen there will be some fine music happening but you will get the odd train wreck,,i like BBQB comment there will be many legends in there own minds at Jams,,if you want every thing to go your way at a Jam night go solo..never expect the audience to bother what is realy going on with the band there to Busy getting Drunk and hitting on one another mistaks often well most allway go unnoticed,,thanks Bro's great thread,,I read in other threads of MBH members being a bit shy about attending there first open mic Night,,i think BBQB would be a good mentor to start a thread on How to best prepare for your first open mic night Im Sure it will be a Great topic,,and thanks to Bro's who have commented on my threads evan though i may be opposed to some comments But in Fairness to all MBH members i understand these comments do help the Brothers and Sisters and any information is most welcome anytime Thanks Bro's
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2010 5:22 PM
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kudzurunner
999 posts
Jan 25, 2010
5:30 PM
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@BBQBob: Amen, brother. I play a little guitar myself. Every last nasty thing you say about blues jam guitarists is true. The good ones know how to play rhythm and know how to make harp players and vocalists sound good. The bad ones play one kind of good, loud solo and can't do anything else.
I don't know why trombone players are the butt of band humor. Rock guitarists at blues jams deserve the heat.
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oldwailer
1030 posts
Jan 25, 2010
6:29 PM
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OK, @Kingley, I would have been right there with you with my guitar if you called out the shuffle in A from the 5--not so much on the rhumba, but a good count-off could probably have set me off right--but, as a guitarist of over 45 years I have to sheepishly confess, I'm pretty shaky on a lot of these blues terms. I'm more of a pre-blues, Piedmont style player--used to playing alone--which is why I try to avoid jams most of the time.
But I'd like to learn. Could you, (or somebody) tell me some common song that exemplifies each of the following cases? (I don't care about the key part).
It's a march in "A"
It's a Rhumba in "G"
It's a loping shuffle in E"
It's the boogie chillin riff in A and stays on the 1 chord for the whole tune.
I would really appreciate the chance to get these terms down for future use. . .
Edit: OK, I did the look-up--I thought that Boogie Chillen thing was familiar--the old John Lee/Canned Heat beat (I love that one). . .
Last Edited by on Jan 25, 2010 6:39 PM
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apskarp
124 posts
Jan 26, 2010
12:54 AM
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Here's some lessons learned from my first jam session.
First of all, I have accustomed to play with pretty good players in a band. I didn't really realize it before this experience, but I must say the guys in my band are quite fluent with their isntruments. Whenever I have a new song or something they just ask me to start to sing/play and they'll join in with different kinds of arrangements, even though it's not standard 12 bar blues form. I really haven't had to develop vocabularity around it.
Now, what I did at the jams was that I just hummed the melody line and explained the changes to the quitarists who nodded and then showed what kind of groove I'd like to have from the drummer. Then when we begun I realized that the form had converged to standard 12 bar blues and what I just had explained was immediately forgot if it was understood at all.. And this made myself feel uncomfortable as I had to quickly try to adopt the song somehow to the new form - luckily I was singing in finnish so that nobody good really here if the words were making any sense or not. ;)
So here's a list of things for myself to remember for the next jam session:
If you are leading and you don't know the players:
-Standard 12 bar blues progression is a must, pick songs accordingly in advance
-Learn the vocab of how to explain the song to the other players, if possible some well known tune that has similar feel to it
-You don't know the players level of understanding so keep the explanations simple
-You don't know the skill level of the other players so expect only basic rhythms without anything complex, if there'll be some good fills f.ex. it's a pleasant surprise
-Just try to listen to the players and give room if somebody seems to be fluent with the instrument
-Agree on signs with the drummer on when to end the song
I'll certainly make myself a "jam set" of few tunes which I can perform with any level of players if I am to lead. Perhaps also some more advanced songs that can be included if the band appears to be a good one.
My first experience was pretty ad hoc and I didn't really prepare for it in any ways, which made it very interesting experience, but I think it would be musically more fulfilling if you are standing on a more firm ground.
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Kingley
689 posts
Jan 26, 2010
1:51 AM
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Oldwailer, good examples of the feels would be things like:
It's a march in "A" - Steve Guygers "I Thought I Heard", Jimmy Rogers "You're Sweet"
It's a Rhumba in"G - Professor Longhair "Hey Little Girl", BB King "One of These Mornings" (although the BB King number converts to a shuffle at points)
It's a loping shuffle in "E" - A Jimmy Reed style shuffle
It's a boogie chillin riff in A and stays on the 1 chord for the whole tune - John Lee Hooker , Slim Harpo "Hip Shake"
I think the thing that frustrates me the most is that the guys I jam with can play some great stuff, it's simply that they pay no attention to the groove at all. Which to me ruins the whole tune. I know one guitarist who "gets it" and on the rare occasions he and I get to jam it's simply great.
It is the rock sensibility as BBQ Bob says. Some of the guys I know play in a country band too and even all their solos in that band just sound like rock blues guitar with a more major pentatonic feel to them. I think they can't distinguish between rock, blues and country. Let alone sub-genres within those categories.
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Bluefinger
3 posts
Jan 26, 2010
2:31 AM
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IMHO somebody who does not understand these descriptions is not session ready. They where perfect. Not your fault ...
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Kingley
690 posts
Jan 26, 2010
2:49 AM
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BBQ Bob is absolutely right about the 7ths thing.
I have explained 'til I'm blue in the face to guitarists how if you play a swing with 6ths and 9ths it'll swing it's backside off. Whilst if you play it with 7ths it just kind of plods along in a stunted fashion.
I certainly have no chance of explaining to them about playing behind the beat, ahead of the beat, or on the beat either. If you play ahead of the beat then they think you're speeding up. So they speed up to match you!
Walter, I'll have to shout out "do the boogaloo" next time! Lol!
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2010 2:51 AM
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kudzurunner
1001 posts
Jan 26, 2010
3:53 AM
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@Kingley: And you are !00% right about the "beat" thing. "If you play ahead of the beat then they think you're speeding up. So they speed up to match you." Yes! I have complained about this specific problem many times, in almost exactly those words. Usually, though, I'm complaining about the drummer. But it's possible that the problem began with, or was significantly abetted by, the guitarist. As the animate trains in my son's favorite show, "Thomas the Tank Engine," say: Grrrrr aaaaaaugh!
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jbone
268 posts
Jan 26, 2010
4:35 AM
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if this is a guitarist you have known for some time and he's doing this on stage, imho it sounds more like a sort of covert power struggle. he may not want to follow your lead simply because he isn't used to that, ot on the other hand he may be tired of doing things "your way".
i had similar experiences a few times in the past. call off a simple jimmy reed style shuffle, slow, count it in, and a guitar or bass guy all of a sudden is saying how do i do that, what do you want, i don't know that one, pick something else. in frustration i have usually just called off a generic shuffle in whatever key, from the 5 or wherever, cued the drummer, and brought it into motion, then did my best to make something good happen. and this from guys i had been on stage with and even gigged with.
i don't have a good answer except resolve the core issue with whomsoever is interrupting the start of the song, later, off stage. in the moment, in the "public eye" you will want to just get through the song with a minimum of fuss.
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GamblersHand
144 posts
Jan 26, 2010
4:53 AM
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Some of the above posts are making me think I've got it pretty good over here in London, England.
Not many of the jams I attend have that many rock-orientated guitarists, usually only one set max in any given jam will be someone playing Hendrix or SRV over a plodding rhythm.
My observation would be that sometimes jammers are too conservative - there's an abundance of the same three grooves - mid-tempo shuffle; slow 6/8 blues; funk or "shake for me/killing floor" blues in any set. There are a good many reasons why this is, but I like pushing the envelope a little - at the last couple of jams we've managed Junko Partner - a second line rhythm and a non-12 bar arrangement.
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Kingley
692 posts
Jan 26, 2010
5:20 AM
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Jbone, you could well be right.
Although that particular guitarist also plays piano (he's a killer piano player) and if I say to him "play a boogie or something, just give us the key and you start it".
He always says "What tempo?"
To which I always respond "well you decide and we'll all follow you". Even then he struggles to start it.
I suspect it's a confidence thing myself and a lack of knowledge of "Grooves". Even though he has gigged and jammed with me for over 15 years.
The thing is once these guys are playing they are generally ok. It's the initial explanations of the groove they seem to struggle with and using dynamics within a tune (unless it's instigated by another guitarist).
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2010 5:21 AM
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barbequebob
394 posts
Jan 26, 2010
10:03 AM
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Adam, what you've described is basically what a black pro musician told me in my early days by calling it white musician-itis, and he told me that white musicians will nearly always follow the guitar player no matter what. From very keen observation over the years, I've found this to be the truth 85% of the time, especially in the open jams.
Gamblershand, you have to be conservative because the vast majority of jammers have little or no knowledge about grooves, period, and this is from experience, and if you want to push the envelope, unless you have very high caliber quality musicians (and in most jams, this ain't gonna happen), you're asking for the worst trainwreck in the world.
Kingly, I made it a point over the years to listen and learn about all instruments, how the jargon goes, and groove and it helps enormously.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
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Kingley
708 posts
Jan 26, 2010
10:11 AM
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"Kingly, I made it a point over the years to listen and learn about all instruments, how the jargon goes, and groove and it helps enormously."
Yes, that's what I have been trying to do as well Bob. I figure if I can explain to them in their terminology then there is no reason (apart from plain ignorance and stupidity on their part) for them not to be able to understand.
I make it a point to ask the best players I know now (on any instrument) how they describe such and such a groove, etc to other players.
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barbequebob
395 posts
Jan 26, 2010
12:54 PM
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Kingley, one thing you also mentioned in your post is something I would avoid doing like the plague because unknowingly, it perpetuates a very negative stereotype of what too many people who play other instruments think about harp players as a rule being the dumbest musician on the bandstand is this here:
"Although that particular guitarist also plays piano (he's a killer piano player) and if I say to him "play a boogie or something, just give us the key and you start it"."
"He always says "What tempo?" "
"To which I always respond "well you decide and we'll all follow you". Even then he struggles to start it."
Now the reason why I say don't do that is because if you're leading a band, be it in a jam, or a real band situation, it's always the responsibility of the person caling off the tune to establish the groove and tempo and count off the time and since you're leading the band here, you have to seize control of the situation or risk the inevitable trainwreck that's gonna follow 9 times out of 10.
Now some of you reading this may think I'm being arrogant, smug, or condescending, but let me assure everyone that this is not the case because in any situation like that, somebody's got to be in control AKA the a** h*** that keeps everybody in line and not having somebody in control leads to trainwrecks. For the harp player, not seizing control here means they're gonna walk all over you like you're 100 times below the level of dirt because you've immediately lost the respect of the others and unfortunately, what you're unknowingly giving off here is an obvious lack of confidence in anything and everything you do.
Whenever possible, one tries to be as diplomatic as possible, but there are times when that clearly isn't gonna cut it and for a few jammers, there are gonna be times when you have to get in people's faces even if it's gonna pee in their ego's Wheaties and they have their friends, relatives, and significant other there in order to get the message across.
Getting dynamics happening in an open jam, unless you're up there with highly skilled, very alert musicians, that's also asking for trouble. Often times when you bring the volume down, the tendency for 85% of the players on the bandstand is to bring the volume all the way back up on the next verse and trying to gradually bring it up or bring the 'heat' momentarily and then let it simmer back down until you're ready to get back into full gear is asking for something next to impossible unless you are lucky enough to have players there with good playing AND even more importantly, good listening skills.
In nearly every open jam, there's always one or two players who consider the jam their gig. Well, unless you're part of the house band that's actually getting paid to host it, that is extremely self delusional and saying that the jam is your gig and you're not part of the house band in front of a pro, trust me, they'll have a very difficult time avoiding trying to laugh like hell in your face. Trust me, every open jam has people like that, and it doesn't matter what instrument they play either.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by on Jan 26, 2010 1:09 PM
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Kingley
710 posts
Jan 26, 2010
1:03 PM
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Thanks Bob.
Very good honest advice as always. I'll take all that onboard and utilise it next time we play.
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bluzlvr
303 posts
Jan 26, 2010
2:30 PM
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Sometimes you get lucky and wind up with players that really know what they're doing.
I was at a jam a few years ago and the guitar player called out a "Slow Muddy Waters style blues in E".
It was pure blues nirvana.
As soon as I took my solo, the guitarist knew EXACTLY how to back me up.
I didn't ever want my turn on stage to end.
It was the complete opposite of the experience in my previous post.
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Randy G. Blues
154 posts
Jan 26, 2010
2:57 PM
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Nice post, Bob... Plenty to digest.
Playing as a regular at an open mic, you sort of have to tread lightly, depending on the group. When I first started it was new to me playing in a group situation, and my biggest lesson was learning when not to play. There were two, or maybe three fellows that kept telling me things like "The harp is not a lead instrument" and, "you should never play when someone is singing." The one guy that said it the most to me in those early months was the organizer to a great extent so I never said anything, and I learned from it.
Part of the problem early on was that they were partially right- I did play too much of a lead part behind vocals. But I learned, I learned more rhythm and backup accompaniment licks, and got much better at it... well.. better anyway. Additionally, I am not sure that their hearing is all up to snuff, and when they would sit or stand in front of my amp I believe that they think that's the way it sounded in the audience (we never have a sound person there). Because of them spreading a lot of crap rumors I gained a reputation for not knowing when to play.
Now, over two years later, I was front man last week, and one of the two that I have assumed that were talking this up behind my back (he was playing guitar this night, but he also plays harp) came up to me at the end of our set, and we were talking, and I mentioned how difficult it was to sing when you aren't experienced in being the front man, etc., and he said something in the realm of, "and it also teaches you when not to play.." or some such crap.
Now, if you heard this guy play harp, he has one style of playing, and has been playing it without noticeable improvement, song after song for all the time I have heard him (over two years). I probably should have told him that if I wanted lessons it wouldn't be from him, or worse, but I want to go back there again and still have some folks who want to play with me.
About two weeks ago there was a second set made up of a harp, drums, bass, and three guitars. All three guitars were playing rhythm if the harp was soloing, or if there were vocals going on. It was terribly muddled and dull, and generally uninteresting to listen to. It sounded as if any two had no idea what the third guitar was doing. But what the heck- it made my set sound pretty good.. ;-)
It is one of the reasons I like to play my wireless rig, so that I can walk out onto the dance floor and see how it sounds out there. it gives me a chance to check my tone as well as my volume level so that I have a reference for when I am back on stage in front of my amp. It's also fun to have some cute, young lady come over and dance with me while I am soloing.. Even old harp players can dream... ;-)
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