While I realize the occasional OT post is permitted, allowing such a divisive message at this time (a message which has absolutely nothing to do with either blues or harmonica) seems like a distinctly bad idea. ---------- Ron Marr Custom Wood Carving
I wouldn't allow it on the FB page, but unless Adam has a problem with it I'm fine with it here.
By the way, I have a small FB group called The Humanist Harp. It's not real active but I try to find music/politics posts, particularly harp related, that leans a bit left. It's a place to talk about politics in harp.
It's worth noting several harp players- Charlie Musselwhite, Rick Estrin, Cheryl Arena... all have videos out with some heavy political content.
I was dubious, frankly, when nacoran first emailed me to flag this video and thread and ask if I was okay with it. But I've taken a look at the rules, and I don't see anything there that expressly prohibits this sort of thread. Timeistight has, as required, put OT in the subject line. I happen to be a huge fan of Van Jones, but that in itself wouldn't have comforted me if the video itself weren't so danged...interesting. Fair and interesting.
I agree with timeistight: this video sticks up for democracy with a small d. More importantly, it spells out in a very clear and informative way a scenario that we might possibly encounter in the future.
A certain amount of water-cooler talk is allowed in this clubhouse. So my ruling is that for now, this thread stands. If it devolves into a partisan shouting match, I'm sure that nacoran will gently but firmly ask people to cease and desist.
Tread carefully, all.
And yes, we did allow the posting of Rick Estrin's pretty aggressively political music video. I can't remember how that turned out. I believe that somebody else posted a music video that advocated in the other direction. Perhaps somebody can remind me/us how that turned out.
Just everyone vote - whether for one or the other. Remember that an abstaining non-vote from a person has virtually the same effect as casting half a vote for each party - and then basically asking that whatever the result is from the majority that did vote, is what you agreed with. Good luck - from north of the border... We are watching and holding our breath...
That was a really interesting video. I never ever thought in my life time I'd ever see such a video and it's nature is a very disturbing sign of the times. Good luck with a peaceful post election USA everyone
Yes: if you're eligible and registered to vote in the US, please do that! I've voted in every single presidential election since I first reached the age of majority in 1976. Or at least I THINK I voted--it would have been for Jimmy Carter--the year I turned 18. Actually, I was away at college when that happened and I may have missed that one. But I'm sure I've voted every four years since then. And I'm 99% sure I've voted in every single annual election since then, even when the stakes just weren't very high.
Took the mutt for a walk this morning to the beach and then stopped by the polling station to vote. No one attempted to intimidate me or run me off the road. And the polling station allowed the dog to come in with me - it’s Laguna Beach after all. So quite a chill morning.
I cast my vote so that we can have art & literature & music & pets & joy & happiness & love in the White House once again. Maybe even the odd harmonica or two for some extra mojo. https://youtu.be/oWT1gfVXle8.
Last Edited by Sundancer on Nov 02, 2020 11:32 AM
Well maybe slight harp content in that a Trump loss would end his steel tariffs. If Hohner or others use US steel could it lower the price of harps slightly? Would more harp companies buy US steel without the 25% tariffs?
Yes, the man at the top seems willing & able to burn down the country to stay in office. I seriously doubt any sane person is surprised by that. But the truly frightening thing in all this is how many enablers of this craziness there are, both politicians and private citizens. Are there really 70 million Americans who don’t care if we no longer have representative democracy?
The only slightly hopeful things are that the state certifiers will fulfill their fiduciary duties, and that Rudy will continue to lead the legal efforts. Every single thing he does - from Borat’s daughter to the Four Seasons to his brain shitting itself to Covid isolation - is zanier than the prior thing. Don't hire Rudy if you get in trouble! Unless, of course, you want to lose your house & job and go to penitentiary.
Last Edited by Sundancer on Nov 21, 2020 2:38 PM
Re: Are there really 70 million Americans who don’t care if we no longer have representative democracy?
If we are going to try to keep this thread from getting political we can't go there for there surely must be some of those 70 million among us. Hell, I know a couple, even have 1 or 2 in the family.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Nov 23, 2020 8:49 AM
Thieven’Heathen - I was fortunate to get to live & work in Australia from 1995 to 1998. Those were difficult years down under. In 1996/7 Australians were trying to reckon with Martin Bryant’s lethal insanity in Port Arthur which lead to strict gun controls and the High Court’s Wik Decision on aboriginal land rights. A lot of soul searching going on. On Australia Day in 1997 the Sydney Morning Herald asked a bunch of prominent Australians if, given all the recent events, they were optimistic or pessimistic about Australia’s future. A historian, whose name eludes me, responded along these lines - “given the behavior of our politicians I tend to be quite pessimistic about what the future holds. But, on the other hand, when the sun is shining in this beautiful country and my bowels are open it’s difficult to feel anything but optimism.” That struck me as both a thoughtful and pragmatic response, and since I’m 2 for 2 in SoCal today I tend feel optimistic about the US of A in these incredibly difficult and unpresidented times. So I’m headed off on a walkie to Main Beach now with the mutt and a D harp ... and a mask.
Last Edited by Sundancer on Nov 23, 2020 3:36 PM
Aaaand still not resolved-- But getting there. It looks like our democracy is robust enough to survive the tomfoolery. And yes, some harmonica players prefer the current President to the one who will be occupying the White House come January. But hopefully they won't be any more out of sorts than the more liberal of us were for the last four years.
"Are there really 70 million Americans who don’t care if we no longer have representative democracy?"
Now, I know if I responded to this in the manner which it richly deserves, those in charge of the board would not take kindly to it, what with their politics being to the left. I find it interesting how people are for free speech as long as the speech comports with their world view.
This forum is no different. I guess impugning the motives of 70 million Americans doesn't constitute devolving into a partisan shouting match. Hey, whatever. Have fun continuing on with your hyperbolic echo chamber.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Nov 25, 2020 6:08 AM
Let’s get specific. My mentor, the man responsible for me being in a position to type these words, the fellow who played harmonica in the band I was in and got me started, is a right wing, conservative, staunch Republican. I would not be surprised if he voted for Trump this year. I had to unfriendly him on FB because I couldn’t bear to deal with the contentiousness. In person, I can avoid venturing into politics. Online, wasn’t possible. He’s actually a quality human being, and I am glad to call him my friend. However, he’s got issues I can’t deal with. There are many more just like him; he believes what he thinks is right. Good people on both sides hehehe—God Bless America. Back to the original post, Trump has tried everything he can, including some ridiculous and highly suspect maneuvers, to have a second term. Remember Ukraine? He still has not conceded, one more unprecedented event. You don’t have to go vey far to find a right wing harmonica player. Let’s try to remain friends. We surely must hang together, rather than separately. Signed, a guy who’s really a singing guitar player but now repairs harmonicas, for the most part.
Honkin, to be fair, Trump's attack on the electoral process is unprecedented. He fired his own people when they said there was no evidence of widespread fraud. He demanded recounts only in parts of states that went against him. He isn't following any of the norms that have helped keep the U.S. a democracy for over 200 years. The Republicans appointed a SCOTUS judge late in his term (who is truly unqualified) despite crying that Obama shouldn't do the same and blocking his nomination. It's worth noting that they were within their rights to block the nomination, but the double standard is amazing.
He even said he was hoping the SCOTUS seat could help deliver him the election. He's lost the popular vote in two straight elections. This time he lost the Electoral College too, but he launched a bunch of baseless lawsuits as a front for fundraising to try to overturn that.
At this point it's not a left right thing, it's a democracy thing. He needs to go.
The thread is marked OT. People have been pretty civil. On the FB group I would have deleted this post. Over there we have a strict no politics rule. Yes, I personally lean pretty hard left. Adam leans a bit left too (although he gets attacked on FB for leaning both ways.)
That's not even getting into his politics, which personally I find odious, or the fact that a fairly large percentage of his voter base (certainly not all, but a large percentage) are open white supremacists, or that he completely botched the covid response or assault accusations or his buddying up to dictators. I've got military friends who hate him for undermining NATO, I've got old friends who hate him for his covid response and attacks on Social Security. I've got black and Hispanic friends who hate him for his racism. I've got friends who are into economics who can't decide if they want to laugh or cry over his pointless trade wars, which no, we didn't win... we lost badly and it cost our farmers dearly. I've got low income friends who hate him because he sent most of the covid bailout money to the rich and then blocked meaningful bailout for a second round unless it gave away billions more to the rich.
We all have our personal politics. Trump represents the rich and the racist and then he gets enough support for his anti-abortion stance, which he only took on when he decided to run as a Republican, from evangelicals to cobble together a coalition. He rails at intellectualism, which is why he fired anyone around him that actually had any credentials. The fact that he gets support from Christians boggles my mind. I know ultimately that's pretty much a one issue crowd, and convinces hunters the liberals are coming for your guns, I guess, even although the vast majority of the left really doesn't care a ton about guns. He's an accused serial rapist, (there are actually DNA tests waiting for him when he leaves office), draft dodging, tax dodging philanderer with financial conflicts of interest so gross that he should have never gotten on a single ballot. That's the politics part.
I can have political difference with people and get along fine. Racism and anti-democracy moves are where I draw the line. I know that's not all of his coalition but the people in his movement who are anti-racism and pro-democracy should really see if they can build a different coalition.
I used to vote Republican, but I was also once in the Navy. If the ship runs aground, it does not matter who was at the helm. The Captain loses his command. 250,000 dead it 10 months is running the ship aground. It amazes me that 47% of the country does not subscribe to that basic axiom of the responsibility of command. The Democrats could have put a gibbons on the ballet and I would have voted for it.
Not to beat a dead horse, but . . . I just checked the news, the current occupant of the White House has not yet conceded his loss of the election. So . . . let's all watch the wheels come off the clown car, he's got a couple of months to act out as leader of the most powerful nation on Earth. Nice knowing you . . .
Nacoran. Your list of friends who hate Trump for various reasons proves nothing. You think you're the only person in the world who knows vets, people who are business savvy, black people or hispanics? I've got a list of friends who hate Obama, Clinton and Biden for a number of reasons every bit as valid as yours. Can't speak up here though or you'll get called a racist or misogynist and/or given some kind of warning that your violating the forum rules.
He's an accused serial rapist? Don't make me laugh. I'm gonna go out on a limb and guess you didn't give a shit about the accusations leveled at Bill Clinton in this regard. They were false right? I mean after all Slick Willie played a mean saxophone. He demands recounts in parts of states that went against him? You mean like Gore did in Florida? SCOTUS issues? Let's talk about the gigantic smear job from the left against Kavanaugh. Stuff from his high school year book? I could go on and on.
The really funny thing is I can't stand Trump either, for many of the same reasons other people can't. I thought when he was elected there was an outside chance he would rise to the occasion. Instead he doubled down on being a buffoon. But I also think the left has gone to cuckoo land. Manufacturing outrage at the slightest things. Cancel culture run amok. Silencing opposing voices on college campuses (you want to talk anti-intellectualism?). It's become the party of victimhood. I happen to think there are a number of people who voted against the left rather than for Trump in both elections because it was the only choice they felt they had. Doesn't make them racist or anti-democratic.
I get along with people that I have political differences with too. I draw the line at the implication that anybody that doesn't vote or think the way they do is a racist, bigot, misogynist or anti-democratic.
Oh, and for the record, I'm in nobody's coalition. I'm independent in thought and political affiliation. Probably best described in general as a libertarian.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Nov 26, 2020 1:05 AM
"But I also think the left has gone to cuckoo land. Manufacturing outrage at the slightest things."
Interesting comment. I'm born and bred in the United Kingdom and looking at politics globally. I'd say that comment applies to both sides of the coin in my opinion. It's also certainly not exclusive to the USA that's for sure. Personally I'm of the opinion that social media and the spread on it of misinformation from both left and right wing is to blame for much of the mentality of hatred that's being seen in the world today. Of course main stream media displaying the political bias of their owners and the rhetoric of certain politicians and leaders around the world has also played a major role in the growth of the hate mindset so prevalent today too. It's certainly undeniable that Trump has used that hate to try and sway people towards a direction he wants them to go. As the leader of one of the most powerful nations in the world his blatant use and promotion of that divisiveness/hatred, is something I personally find abhorrent. Whilst I find Biden's attempts at calming the waters and trying to find a way to at least lessen the hatred from both sides, much more how a President should act. Now whether he'll do a good job in office, only time will tell. My gut feeling is that Biden will certainly do no worse than Trump and will hopefully bring the USA back into the global stage on so many fronts. Thereby creating a USA that is less inward looking and more globally focused on the things that we as a world need to act against. Which we as a species of course can only ever hope to do by working together.
Last Edited by Kingley on Nov 26, 2020 8:14 AM
I have tried to write something in this thread several times but never followed through.
I am writing this from the point of view of a Canadian neighbour. This last 4 years has been like living next door to a very scary powerful bully. That itself is bad enough but to know that nearly half the voters support the bullies behavior makes me fear for your countries future and the likely negative impacts to countries around the world.
I said bully to be polite but I think Nate described him best.
Gmac, A lot of countries go through dark times and my country, the US, is no different. It only takes one charismatic individual to lead a country down the wrong path. Come January, you will see us return to our centrist selves, moving away from nationalism and back toward the global community. What happens in 2024 is anybody’s guess.
Last Edited by sonvolt13 on Nov 26, 2020 3:12 PM
It isn't just Canada that's been watching the last 4 years in slack jawed horror, the whole world has been. (while ping-ponging between the other ongoing horror show with UK Brexit thanks to Murdoch/Mercer et al).
>>What happens in 2024 is anybody’s guess.
Who wants to take a bet Princess Ivanaka does a GOP chestburster screaming "Make Amerikkka Great Again Again Again"?
@kingley "Thereby creating a USA that is less inward looking and more globally focused on the things that we as a world need to act against. Which we as a species of course can only ever hope to do by working together."
+100 to this. I'm actually feeling positive about this. It is a global effort and the US is a key player on the team.
Hopefully Koch will follow through on his realisation of the damage he caused, and help to heal rather than foster hate.(though he could just be engaging in blame deflection here to try and spit polish his "legacy" (sic))
There are also moves afoot to hold Murdoch/Fox/News Ltd to account for the damage they have caused in the US/UK/Australia in fostering hate/lies/diviseness, so we'll see how that pans out too. ---------- Paul Cohen aka Komuso Tokugawa HarpNinja - Learn Harmonica Faster Komuso's Music Website
Last Edited by Komuso on Nov 26, 2020 4:05 PM
As someone who has been kicking around this theme park floating in space for a while now, here are my observations.
Sometime during the 80's we reached the apex of what the Victorians set out with the industrial revolution. We could feed, clothe, house, heat and heal significant numbers of the population. While making some coin in doing so.
Technology has now tipped the balance and we have almost become "too efficient" in how we act. We can fish or harvest trees at faster rates than they can recover, as an example.
Information comes at us, and demands a response at such speeds it ignores the fact we are merely human.
I recently took a weeks vacation to return to an inbox of 400 emails.
I am a cleaner of a couple of buildings, not the CEO of a multi-national.
I do think that this period in history will be seen as the uneasy bridge between the older, "industrial" (for want of a better description) and emergent "technological" age.
This may mean having to leave behind some of the tried and trusted, but equally that doesn't mean having to enbrace every new discovery as being somehow better. Just because you can do something, doesn't mean you should.
Oooh, an opportunity to drag this thread onto a harp topic.
I like to think harmonica is the ultimate bullshit detector (can I say bullshit?). Most of the tone comes from the player, and if you don't know where the notes are (and you can't see them!) you can't make musical sense. It's totally analog, no place to put batteries, it even resists amplification (altho LW did a splendid job). Perfect for campfires, it is a very personal and potentially meditative instrument. It can also serve as a weapon, if you want to play in the top octave LOL Here's a holiday greeting to all of you to say, let's enjoy our shared love and resist hate. PS Trump says he is in "no mood to concede"
Last Edited by Gnarly on Nov 27, 2020 8:52 AM
I read all of the posts on this thread and the bias just makes me laugh. Everyone is calling for Trump to concede almost immediately after the election, before all of the votes are counted, yet no one remembers what Hillary said just before the election. I guess this applies for just the left.
So the mail in ballots bring in a greater chance of voter fraud, as Jimmy Carter said many years ago. During the night, after ballot counting has stopped, 126,000 votes appear overnight, with no one around, all for Biden? Nothing fishy going on here.
Biden claims to have more votes than Obama, the first black President, yet Biden has less votes in Chicago and New York than Hillary did in 2016. It was a simple plan. Go after 5-6 swing states that the Dems control, and make sure Biden wins Philly, Detroit, Atlanta and others. A lot of ballots counted behind closed doors (or behind poster boards like Detroit). That is one reason Sleepy Joe never left his basement They had a plan to stuff ballots AFTER the valid ballots were counted.
If Biden is so sure he won and won by a lot, why has not Sleepy Joe or the Dem party come out and say, OK, we know we won so let's validate the ballots and check them to the voter registration to confirm that they are all legal ballots, to prove Biden won fair. Well no one has. All you hear from the left is Trump won't conceded.
So whether you are from the left or the right, do you not want a fair election to determine who the President is or is it just to get Trump out at all costs, no matter if it is by hook or by crook.
I grew up in a blue collar strong middle class Democratic family. I always was the moderate and believed in views from both sides, but except for Trumps arrogant manner, I do support what he stands for.
Remember, it is not the media but the legal American votes that will determine our President. It ain't over until that fat lady sings, and I do not mean Rosie O'Donnell...
If the swing state votes get overturned, and Trump does win the election, expect the worst rioting ever in the history of this country, with terrorist groups like Antifa and BLM burning down the Democratic cities. Start boarding up the store fronts now.
Last Edited by Blind Melon on Nov 27, 2020 12:51 PM
Blind Melon - hopefully we all believe that justice is as blind as Sonny Terry. Because here’s what happened in a Pa appeals court earlier today on the latest stop of Rudy’s 2020 dementia comedy tour: Judge Stephanos Bibas, who was appointed by President Trump (the other two judges on the three-judge panel were also appointed by Republican presidents), wrote on behalf of the appellate court, stating that "Free, fair elections are the lifeblood of our democracy. Charges of unfairness are serious. But calling an election unfair does not make it so. Charges require specific allegations and then proof. We have neither here. Voters, not lawyers, choose the President. Ballots, not briefs, decide elections"
The moral of the story is that just because POUTUS says something is true doesn’t mean it is. In fact, it usually isn’t. And it should be noted for accuracy’s sake that Mexico didn’t pay for the wall either. Justice is blind, but please trust your eyes folks!
But on a lighter note, have y’all seen this video of Curtis Salgado’s latest song? This is some serious old white dude dancing! Damn I’m envious. And aren’t the lyrics just perfect. https://youtu.be/ikRzUBWoUIY (could someone please insert the video? Thanks)
Last Edited by Sundancer on Nov 27, 2020 4:18 PM
More has come out about Bill Clinton's behavior over the years. The fact that Hillary stood by him actually was a big knock, for me, on her. There were, I think, 2 accusations against him- one of actual rape and one of exposing himself. The Republicans focused on his affair instead, which was sleazy on his part. Oddly they didn't focus on the power imbalance in that relationship.
Trump has 26 allegations of rape or assault against him. I wouldn't vote for Bill Clinton for any office again. More has come out about his behavior... but he seems to have been much less prolific and there was a lot less corroborating evidence against him.
Blind Melon, each mail in ballot is checked against it's signature. Trump was actively telling his base not to do mail in ballots, Biden was telling his base to do mail in votes. Does it really surprise you that more of his base chose to do mail in?
Both parties had representatives watching the recount. Trump's own guy in charge of watching for election fraud came out and said he didn't see any signs of fraud. Trump fired him for that.
Trump's lawsuits have been laughed out of the courts. The election has now been certified in those states you are hoping for reversals in. Votes didn't magically appear overnight. You seem to be confusing stopping counting for the night so people can sleep with 'stopping the counting' because they were done. I was watching the reports come in on the news. Votes didn't magically appear. The Trump lead was chipped away at bit by bit as the Democratic cities started finishing up their counts and as states started counting their mail in ballots. Pennsylvania in particular, had a rule on the books that said they couldn't start counting the mail in ballots that had already arrived until the ballots had closed and Trump sued to have those votes not counted, with no legal basis, so they weren't allowed to be added to the tallies until that lawsuit was over, which Trump lost. Basically Trump tried to get the votes he suspected would be against him tossed, so they weren't counted right away, then when he lost that lawsuit they were counted, and like he'd expected, they were heavily Democratic.
Why isn't the Democratic Party saying lets check the ballots? Because the ballots were checked as they came in. That's how it's done. There aren't really any states that are close in terms of recounts either. Recounts maybe flip a few dozen votes one way or another. The margin is thousands to tends of thousands.
If the swing states votes got overturned it would mean massive election fraud. There were Republican supporters with guns headed to disrupt the mail in count in PA, and this weird "Stop the Count/ Don't stop the count" rallies going around from Trump supporters who wanted the count to stop where they were ahead, despite the fact that there were legal votes still to be counted and rallies, also from Trump supporters yelling for them to recount where he was behind. There are mechanisms for recounting the vote in close votes. Trump has availed himself of those- interestingly only in counties where he lost badly, not across entire states, trying to get large numbers of votes thrown out in batches because those areas voted heavily against him. That... actually borders on vote fraud, for the record.
As for BLM and Antifa... there certainly have been a few violent people in both groups, although in general they have protested peacefully. Antifa in particular, rarely does their own rallies. They show up at Nazi and White Supremacists' rallies to yell at Nazis and White Supremacists and a large number of the things attributed to BLM actually ended up with people being arrested... who turned out to be white supremacists who snuck into the crowd. There was a whole town that went into lockdown because someone saw a rumor BLM was going to come burn down their houses. The FBI traced that back to white supremacists. Umbrella man, seen wearing a mask, carrying an umbrella, breaking out store windows while BLM people told him to stop... the police caught up with him. Turns out he was a white supremacist trying to start a race war.
I share stories like this with my left wing friends to point out that when they get too wound up they are playing into the right wing narrative. The vast majority of BLM and Antifa are non-violent. The vast majority of political terrorism deaths in the U.S. come from the right wing. You don't have to trust me on that one though. You can look it up. The FBI lists that sort of stuff.