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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Marine Band Crossover or 1847 Noble?
Marine Band Crossover or 1847 Noble?
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Troni
7 posts
Oct 23, 2020
2:37 AM
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Yeah I know the question is as old as time, but what do you think which harmonica is better: the Marine Band Crossover or the 1847 Noble (or maybe Lightning)? Which sounds better, and which serves longer?
Troni
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WinslowYerxa
1717 posts
Oct 23, 2020
12:17 PM
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Better?
They're different. They're similar in responsiveness but different in *how* they respond.
They sound different. I hear more inharmonic overtones in steel reeds. Will you *prefer* that sound? I can't answer that question for you, just like I can't do your pushups for you in the morning.
Longevity is more about how you play than about the reeds. Reports I hear indicate that steel reeds do eventually fail, but when they do, they do so suddenly, without the drawn-out loss of pitch and response that you get with brass reeds.
I like and play them both.
You experience is the only thing that can truly answer your questions.
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John M G
377 posts
Oct 23, 2020
9:35 PM
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Just a note on the 1847 Noble aluminum combs. They are quite angular with a somewhat hard edge and protrude a bit.
To me the stock Noble comb is nowhere near as comfortable as Tom Halchak's Blue Moon combs.
If you were going to go with the Seydel I'd suggest going with the less expensive silver 1847 and replacing the white plastic/resin stock comb using one of Tom's aluminum combs.
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Raven
193 posts
Oct 25, 2020
4:54 PM
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Personally, I don't care for the bulkier harp models...I don't like the way they fit my mouth. So for me, of the two, I would prefer the Crossover. As you will note, there are a lot of strong opinions on this forum about which models play best OOTB, which tuning is preferred, metallic taste of cover plates, comb switch-outs, mustache grabbers and the list goes on. Winslow is correct about longevity. All metals will eventually fatigue. Play too hard and you can blow out reeds in no time. A number of us prefer phosphor bronze over brass or steel. If you ask Dennis, he'll tell you to go with the Crossover...he feels they play well without modifications and prefers the tuning over say, a Manji. Most of us have tried multiple models from different manufacturers and have various ones in our kits, but have a personal preference as to our "go-to" choice. You'll probably do the same as the rest of us. And when you finally settle on your favorite choice you'll get on the forum and read about an exciting new model that has it all over everything else on the market and your curiosity will end up costing you another $60-100.
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the_happy_honker
329 posts
Oct 25, 2020
8:31 PM
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Performance is mostly a matter of making adjustments for air tightness and gapping to taste, so that is more up to you than a matter of the which harp is better.
The fine-tuning of the notes in relation to each other (temperament) on the Crossover makes the chords sound very aggressive. I bought five or so Crossovers before the aggressiveness started to bother me and then I went on a Marine Band Deluxe buying spree. The temperament on them makes the chords sound smoother. In that respect, the 1847 is more like the Deluxe.
There is a slight difference in hole spacing (the 1847 is wider), but I don't notice it any more. YMMV.
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ZackPomerleau
1445 posts
Oct 26, 2020
12:32 AM
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Get the 1847 Classic. In my opinion it has the best wood comb available on a stock harp.
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Kingley
4170 posts
Oct 26, 2020
8:22 AM
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Given that you'll need harps in different keys. Why not simply get one of each in a key you use often, then see which you like the most. That would seem the most obvious solution to me. Simply because it's such a personal thing and what suits one person, won't necessarily suit another.
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nacoran
10295 posts
Oct 26, 2020
12:06 PM
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I've got an 1847 Noble but it's got one of Tom's combs on it so I can't comment on John M G's comment.
While the Crossover is a nice harp if you take money out of the equation I take the 1847 over it any day. That said, my favorite harp of all is the Kongsheng Solist, which is actually only about $50, but that comes with two caveats- as of right now it only comes in Equal Temperament and the covers have nickel in them. It turns out I have a mild sensitivity so I had to get the covers powder coated after market. I happened to be talking to my mom one day and she'd had a fender bender, no injuries. I talked to her car guy when I helped her drop off the car and since it took so little paint he did it for free and now I've got a harp that matches my mom's Prius.)
Between the 1847 and the Kongsheng it's pretty close in quality, and in practice, if you need the covers painted and didn't have a friendly body work guy getting them painted would probably equal out the price but 95% of people don't have a nickel sensitivity.
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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SuperBee
6844 posts
Oct 26, 2020
1:53 PM
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I've tried both. I have 4 crossovers I bought in 2011 (or was it 2012?). I have an 1847 I bought sometime in 2012/13.
I've repaired quite a few 1847s, and also a few Crossovers.
My personal 1847 is in Low F, which is not a key I have much use for, but when I do need it I always go for my Thunderbird.
I have mended over 60 1847 harps for one player, who is a Seydel-endorsed player. Most have been the blow bend slots, both blow and draw sides. In the higher keys I've put in the usual 4 and 5 slot reeds, but not as many.
I've also done some maintenance work for a guy who plays Nobels. Replaced a 5 draw in his A I recall, and did some set up work on them.
Both factories have some characteristic quality issues with their products. Neither company talks about these things of course.
Very few people talk about the problems with Seydel products, but as a repairer I know I would much rather work on a Hohner. Many people talk about the problems with Hohner.
I'm not saying the problems are common.
As I was repairing hundreds of harps each year, I became quite aware of these characteristics and my feeling about the products is probably more influenced by that than by any consideration of using them as a player.
Every harp that was sent to me had a problem. Some problems are easier to fix them others.
If I was a pro player doing heaps of gigs, perhaps the relatively stable tuning of the steel reeds would appeal to me. That's the only thing I can imagine I could find appealing about the Seydel products. If I played Seydel I would not play the Nobel, I would choose the classic. It is much better value. I especially do not like the aluminium comb of the Nobel. The only aluminium comb I have found acceptable is sold by Tom at Blue Moon.
Once properly set up, there is nothing wrong with an 1847. I don't care for them, but that's just my choice.
I've mended plenty of Crossovers. They are basically just Marine Bands with a bamboo comb and a harsh tuning temperament, but they usually play quite well off the shelf. Maybe they get a little more attention in the factory before they leave.
My personal Crossovers are all good harps. I don't use them often, but when I pick them up I notice how well they compare with the custom harps I commonly play. (I don't need to play customs for what I do, but since I have them I figure I may as well use them. I mainly bought them to educate myself about setting up harps, but they helped teach me other things about playing too)
Bottom line is, it's your bread so blow it as you choose. If it was my choice I know what I would do, but that's all about my personal experience and no more valid than the other choice. In general is probably correct to say the steel reeds are more robust and the crossover has a harsher sound. Generally it might be true that the Seydel product is more accurately tuned at the factory but I wouldn't like to be saying that from the witness stand before the court.
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ZackPomerleau
1447 posts
Oct 26, 2020
8:21 PM
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SuperBee, I’m a Seydel artist but will say I’ve personally never had that issuing of blowing out notes that much and I play a lot. 4 or so times a week. I’ve heard steel doesn’t withstand the higher pressure playing as well but will maintain itself better otherwise. I’m curious about the issues you’ve found? Having spoken to lots of people at the company I know they’d be willing to discuss this. I really like how easy it is to replace reeds on their harps.
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SuperBee
6845 posts
Oct 27, 2020
4:54 AM
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All I know, Zack, is that I have replaced over 60 reeds in this player's harps since 2016. I have done 3 jobs for him in that time; 17 harps in '16, 16 in 17, and 31 last year. Most of the A and Bb and C harps needed reeds in the blow bend slots so I presume those are his keys that he hammers for blow bending, especially as it was not just blow or draw reeds but a good smattering of both. I guess his band is pretty loud. They play a lot of outdoor stages.
In the D harps and F harps the repairs were the common 4 and 5 draw, but the harps he sent me were mainly lower keys.
I don't listen to a lot of his music, so I don't really know with certainty what his mix of playing style is and maybe he'd blow out a lot more reeds if he wasn't playing the Seydel stuff. I only know what I saw in the harps he sent me.
That's just one guy, and he is a Seydel listed player. I've mended plenty other steel harps but not so many for one individual so I found it interesting.
Mostly I just saw the common problems.
Like I said, when every harp you see has a problem of some kind, you can start to feel like every harp made is dodgy. I have to remind myself that I see a self selecting sample of stuff, and it's atypical.
Seydel steel reeds do sometimes have a particular problem though, and this applies to the long slot reeds. All reeds in all harps can suffer from being poorly shaped and that's a lot of what we do when setting harps up, so the basic problem is not unique to Seydel by any means, but it can be more pronounced and harder to address thanks to the nature of the reed material.
When those reeds in slots 1 and 2 are installed with a belly down position in the slot, they can be very hard to straighten. Typically they are gapped a bit high at the free end which makes them a bit breathy and slow to sound, but if you close the gap to appear more reasonable they will choke easily with modest breath and it becomes hard to get a good dynamic range. Because the reeds in these slots commonly have a fairly long section unmilled and the bend usually involves this section and the transition into the milled area, it's very hard to straighten out. I found it much more effective to simply discard these reeds and replace with new.
Maybe the Nobel models don't make it out of the factory in this condition. I feel like I've seen it a lot, enough that I think of it as the Seydel problem, but I have no idea how common it is really. It's common in harps sent to me for attention but people don't send the good ones without issues.
The other thing I used to see in steel reeds was very heavy handed tuning marks. Some reeds actually had holes in them. Many appeared discoloured from heat. I think that has been addressed in recent years.
I was given a lot of reedplates by a distributor who had collected them from harps he'd replaced under warranty, so again my sample was heavily made up of units which had problems and has influenced my feelings about the product.
Even though I'm aware of this, I just can't shake it off yet. I've stopped doing repairs for people now, so maybe I'll get over it after some time away from dealing with broken harps.
EDITED to correct an incorrect autocorrection
Last Edited by SuperBee on Oct 27, 2020 7:35 PM
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nacoran
10296 posts
Oct 27, 2020
8:03 AM
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SuperBee, do you know the story about survivor bias in bombers during World War II? What you described (and described as being aware of) fits on that example only kind of in an inverted way.
In WWII whenever bombers came back from missions with holes in them the techs would look at them and figure out where they were getting hit, only the thing was that ended up with them adding armor to parts of the plane that could already survive being hit. After the war when they got to look at bombers that had gone down they realized they had a terrible sampling error... they needed to have been armoring the spots they never saw hit. That meant that when they were hit there they went down over Europe.
Edit- I've got a similar caveat to both of my best harps that are mostly out of the box. I got my 1847 from Greg at 16:23, with a Blue Moon comb and my Kongsheng Solist was sent to me specifically for review, so in both cases there is this nagging in the back of my mind... they both knew I was an admin on a couple different harmonica sites so more people would see my posts about them. They both are amazing harps but if I ever win the lottery I'm going to buy a couple of each model of every brand and have them shipped to an unregistered mail box so I can see if there is any difference in quality just to satisfy the journalistic instinct in me. Of course, if I'm building a set to play maybe I need to do the opposite. :)
I wonder sometimes if there is a form of survivor bias in pre-wars. I've heard conflicting reports of guys just throwing out a bad harp because they were cheap to replace and vintage harps being the holy grail. I wonder if maybe all the old time clunkers just got thrown out so we are only seeing the ones that were good enough to be worth keeping around. It would be fascinating to stumble on a box of NOS mouse ears or such. You could finally see a true sample of initial quality on them. :)
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
Last Edited by nacoran on Oct 27, 2020 8:09 AM
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Gnarly
2904 posts
Oct 27, 2020
2:27 PM
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"I wonder if maybe all the old time clunkers just got thrown out so we are only seeing the ones that were good enough to be worth keeping around."
My new band name, "The Old Time Clunkers".
Thank yew very mush . . .
Try the veal.
Last Edited by Gnarly on Oct 27, 2020 2:27 PM
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ZackPomerleau
1448 posts
Oct 27, 2020
4:44 PM
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Thanks for the response SuperBee. I’ve personally not noticed that shaping issue but considering things are handmade there’s probably a possibility for error.
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Gerry
112 posts
Oct 28, 2020
10:04 AM
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I've played Seydels for over 10 years and I've never had a problem with the reeds. (I tune them to Paddy Richter myself) They are tougher to work on but I've never had one fail.
My last harp was a 1847 silver and it's great. Very even sounding but not overly loud.
I personally favour the Session Steels which I have had a problem with replacement translucent combs cracking and tight fitting. I assume the translucent plastic shrinks over time?
Any metal will fatigue if put under excess force for extended time. I reckon playing style is everything here.
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dougharps
2188 posts
Oct 28, 2020
11:29 AM
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Addressing first my experiences limited to Crossovers and 1847s (Classic and Silver in my case, not Noble) I believe the Crossover is more responsive and less airy, but the tuning on the 1847 offers smoother chords. I am a moderately hard player, though I play somewhat softer since beginning to use occasional OBs.
The Crossovers I play have had occasional reed failures on the usual 4 or 5 draw. The 1847 failures have been even less common and are on the higher pitched blow bend reeds.
My subjective conclusion is that the Crossover has the usual Hohner reed issues if you hammer the reeds on 4 and 5 draw with hard breath force, and the 1847 (and Session Steel SHORTER steel reeds) may fail when repeatedly stressed by blow bends. It seems that the longer stainless steel reeds (4 and 5 draw) can take more abuse than the shorter reeds.
I prefer the tuning temperament on Special 20s and MBDs to that of Crossovers. I won't use nailed diatonics anymore. I have not yet tried Rockets, though I may if any more of my Hohners have terminal failures. If I must, I will replace reeds, but I enjoy trying different brands.
*******
The OP did not mention Manjis, but I find that Manjis can take more abuse than the Hohners, in my experience about equal to Seydels. I still prefer the temperament on the MBD and Special 20 to the Manji, though with spare time this winter perhaps I will sweeten the Manjis.
I will not get into listing the other brands I have tried and may still use. Each brand has had strengths and weaknesses.
For loud, harder playing I tend to go to Manjis as they are less likely to fail than Hohners. If I have fast hard 3rd position in mind, I usually choose Manji. I like the Hohners for nuanced playing at lower volumes. Seydels seem to be good harps, too, somewhere in between the Hohners and Manjis in what note attack works best. I like the lower pitched Seydels and most of my low harps are Seydels.
I prefer the smoother Hohners overall if I can play less forcefully. At times I choose Manjis or Seydels depending on what seems right to me for the song at that time.
I recommend trying all I have mentioned above, and even trying some newer brands. Try and make up your own mind.
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Doug S.
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Troni
8 posts
Oct 29, 2020
1:39 PM
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Thank you everyone for the many replies! I have one Crossover, I will try out the 1847 now and figure out what fits most for me.
Also thank you for mentioning the failures these harps can have, it's really useful.
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