So I got to try a friends reissued Green Bullet the other day and found out some cool things about it.
I have tried it before at a store and didn't like how it sound. Plus I've listened to countless amounts of recordings that have used it and always hated how thin and scratchy it sounds.
Well recently I got to try it with my Epiphone Valve Special and Harp Gear Rock Bottom (HGRB). I also got to try it with the Vox AC4TV which I may write a separate review about...
First, I plugged it into my HGRB and it started to feedback quite a lot. I cupped it and played a little and found the tone to be indeed really thin and shitty.
Then I went on ahead to plug the Green Bullet into the Epiphone 5 watt amp. HOLY SHIT. It was LOUD and it had tone!! A little bit more on the trebly side but there was a rich enough body of bass to push the sound. I was really shocked and impressed. Even my EV 660 and JT30 (Shure CM) don't sound as good on that made in China amp.
I would go as far as saying that I really wouldn't mind playing gigs with a RI Green Bullet and my Epiphone amp (or some equivalent "budget" tube guitar amp). Only reason I won't is because I love my HGRB my and EV660 mic to bits. :)
After several more back to back comparisons including my own mics (EV and JT30) and have come to a conclusion of my own which I hope can help others.
I now strongly believe that the reissued Green Bullets are great bullet mics for affordable/cheap GUITAR AMPS. They don't do as well with the custom harp amps or vintage tweeds because they are NOT voiced that way for harmonica amps. The key thing is that they are voiced to overdrive guitar amps in general. The kind of amps that may not sound too good with a vintage crystal bullet mic and other pedigree vintage mics/elements.
For those of you who ALREADY have one of those Green Bullets I would highly recommend using them with the recommended "budget" harp amps that are mentioned quite often on these forums. The ones that are basically 5 watt guitar "practice" tube amps.
In relation to knowing all this I would have to say nothing can be truer about the age old advice from all the veterans that say that it's all about matching the right mic with the right amp.
Later on me and my friend Eddy (Rollin' Sixers Band) went to the guitar store and checked out the Vox AC4TV. Yet again, the reissued Green Bullet was putting out more volume and tone than my EV 660 (from Chris)and Shure CM element JT30 (from Chuck Gurney). It definately did not sound as complex or dynamic as my mics but it had a rockin tone that really does work if your options are very limited.
I told my good friend Eddy to keep the mic because it's very useful in that sense. To get a decent sound from most guitar amps is a blessing in disguise. That's why it sounds so trebly because it's probably voiced to sound like a guitar.
Still, it sounds like crap on a good harp amp like the HGRB.
I think if you're very serious and want to do the amplified thing on harp with great harp amps in a long run... then forget the Green Bullet completely.
But if you're really on a tight budget and do not see yourself ordering a custom harp amp... but still crave that overdriven bullet tone it's a decent deal.
Last but not least, whatever you do, NEVER BUY AN AMP OR MIC THAT YOU HAVEN'T TRIED. Bring your damn amp or mic into the store when you're shopping and don't forget your own cables and harps!
Just for terminology sake - there is no such thing as a "re-issue" green bullet. The sequence of Shure green bullets was:
Model 520 - single impedance controlled magnetic element Model 520D - dual impedance controlled magnetic element Model 520DX - dual impedance dynamic element
Shure has never "re-issued" an old model and the 520DX is still in production.
To my ear, the CM's are all good but the single impedance ones were better. The 520DX dynamic element has more high frequency response and doesn't dirty up as nicely. Not bad, but not THAT tone. ---------- /Greg
Thanks for the corrections Greg. And you are absolutely right.
What I meant to refer to are the current production Green Bullet mics.
It's really not the best thing out there but I figured that it does help for some people to know this. Especially if they already own one and may feel disheartened about their purchase.
Honestly it doesn't sound too bad. And it actually sounded really nice and dirty on the Epiphone Valve Special and Vox AC4TV.
Am I replacing my EV660 and HGRB for that kind of sound? Nooooooooo. no no no no no no no no... :p
I think a 520DX is not an optimal microphone, but it's still pretty usable. It's not dirty, but there are times where having a dirty microphone is not always desired.
I've got one. I got it used for a dirt cheap price. I've used it with a variety of amps including a Meteor Mini Meat and a Harpgear Double Trouble.
Is it my best microphone? No.
Is it usable? Yes. I'm able to get some very usable sounds out of it.
I have a 520DX that I came across for free. I changed it to a 1/4" guitar jack and added a good volume pot--I like it fine for now--I'll get a better one when I find a better price. . .
Zhin - I like your enthusiasm and your reasons for recommending the mic are sound, within the bounds of your experience.
However the longer you play around this with stuff - the more you learn. The first mic I bought when I started playing amplified was... a 520DX. That was 5 years before I started fooling around with mics in earnest, which I have now been doing for about 7 years.
Here is what I know now that I didn't know then about the 520DX:
1) The tone is mediocre 2) It is the biggest shell in diameter of any harp mic in common use. That makes it harder to cup, even for experts let alone new players. 3) It is the heaviest shell in common use - major hand fatigue when you start gigging. 4) The built in cable is a failure waiting to happen. They all do. It also makes the mic a pain to store.
SO - you might be tempted to justify it to yourself by saying "I'll modify it down the line...."
You could, for example, remove the cable and install a screw-on connector (cha-ching!) Unfortunately, the retaining ring of the cable's connector will now interfere with the volume knob. You can shave the knob down so it turns freely again, but it is now ugly. Moreover the 3/4" diameter of that ring makes it much harder to get your thumb and forefinger on to the knob at all, so it becomes harder to adjust. So you jettison the internal volume control completely and go with an external one. (cha-ching!) And you replace the element with a nice CM (cha-ching!). Now you have a nicer mic, that has cost you a lot of money. But it still suffers from 2 and 3 above. The thing is better suited as a weapon.
It took me many years to really understand all of this. When I bought mine, I didn't know all of this for sure. But my advice to people now is.... don't waste your money.
If you want an inexpensive mic there are many better options. Buy the new "JT30" - its element is also not the best, but it will get you by - and the shell is much more "future mod friendly." Or, buy a non-functioning Astatic JT30, 10-DA, T3, or an EV 630, M43/U, or a bunch of others. These are all smaller lighter shells than the 520DX and you should be able to get one VERY cheap if the element is known to be dead. Now jury-rig a cable, or install a screw-on connector (have a pro do this - I do it, so do others) and buy an element from a trusted source. You may end up having spent $200, but you will be happier. I promise.
Hi Bro's you's have mentiond the DX520 is a bit high pitched Greg i was thinking would it be possible to put a Capacitator on the 520DX to knock of the High end pitch,,im sure there are many More MBH members around the world that own the 520DX,,because 520DX & Blues Blasters are the only mics on offer in there country,,would it be possible to Bleed of those high end frequencys what value cap would be the best to use,,Im Sure this information will be of most help to many MBH Members thanks for your time Bro's,,,PS The above vids are of my own experience you may have a Blues Blaster that has lasted a long time and think it's a sound investment for it's dollar,,by no way am i trying to diss credit any MBH members..
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2010 10:55 PM
What Greg said! Here's my 520SL less Greg's volume control. There is a difference from the 520DX. Unfortunately, you can spend a lot of $$$ on mics & amps and still not be satisfied. I think Jerry Portnoy said it best "Tone comes from you".
Hey Zhin...I use a 520dx through my Fender champ 600 and it sounds sweet. I have also found that the Shure 515 sounds even better through the champ. You can pick these up really cheap on e-bay.
The integral lead on the 520dx has gone twice on me now. I have had to take it apart and resolder it. That's the only downside I've had with it.
"Here is what I know now that I didn't know then about the 520DX:
1) The tone is mediocre 2) It is the biggest shell in diameter of any harp mic in common use. That makes it harder to cup, even for experts let alone new players. 3) It is the heaviest shell in common use - major hand fatigue when you start gigging. 4) The built in cable is a failure waiting to happen. They all do. It also makes the mic a pain to store. "
Guess what. I already knew all that and that's why my initial opinion about it was pretty harsh. I stand by my opinion that you can get a useable sound out of it if you used an amp that's voiced for guitar which would typically sound like crap with one of the more common "pedigree" mics. Frankly I don't think it's THAT hard to cup. Not any harder than a JT30.
I am not selling the current Green Bullet and neither do I own one. I am not telling anyone to go buy one in a hurry. Just trying to help people who are trying to make an informed decision. To let them know what they are getting themselves into (or already have gotten into).
Previously my opinion was "it's shit, don't even touch it" and I think it's rather shallow to think of it that way when it does have some specific applications.
Just trying to put something different on the table for a change.
I'm sure there are people who are tired of people like us raving about vintage ElectroVoice mics and special Shure elements, JT30's with special "non-stock" elements, Greg's ultimate series mics.. The SM57, SM58, 545, etc etc... It's all been covered over and over again.
Us boys with the big toys need to be a little bit more open minded about other peoples shit. Just saying.
Besides, this is a blues forum and blues is all about making use of what you already got.
I just hate the idea that there are people out there who have the GB and get told "oh it's crap" and they just get left in the dark.
Hi Zhin i was doing some Google reserching it looks like we can knock of some of those nasty highs on Controlled Magnetic elements with a .001uf/200 Capacitator i don't see why it would not work with the 520DX,,i'm thinking this may make the 520DX more useable in the higher register it won't improve the bottom end but it will smooth out the Highs..
The Shure 520DX is a perfectly useable harmonica mic. As is the Hohner Roadhouse, Blues Blaster, Superlux and the Peavey H-5.
Are they tonally as good as an old 520, JT30, T3, 707A, etc.?
No.
But here's the thing. This has always been true and always will be. This is the cold hard brutal truth.
If you are a good player any mic will sound good. If you are a bad player any mic will sound bad. A bad workman always blames his tools.
I have turned up at a gigs and jams and had to use whatever was there to blow harmonica through because I couldn't have my rig of preference for whatever reason.
Now that's fine because I have confidence in my abilities to be able to play and get a good sound through virtually anything.
Did I sound the best I could sound? Maybe not.
Would I have been more comfortable playing my own rig? Of course.
My point is don't get too hung up on gear.
Get hung up on getting your chops and tone together. Because that's what really matters when it comes to playing harmonica..
I hadn't played through any of my amps since like November, but I've been doing a workshop Jam with a bunch of Folks around DC that's all acoustic. I jumped on one of my amps last week and YEP tone sounded better. Practicing Acoustically will help you develop better tone. But I still think mic and amp choices are important and for me the GB DX has no use.
So, Zhin... It's been a year since you started this post. Any thoughts about writing your review about the Vox AC4TV? I'm interested in buying one and wonder what you think. Do you own one? Or did you just try one out at a store?
The Green Bullet mics were originally discontinued in 1977 by Shure because, as far s they knew at the time, its time had long passed as a regular PA mic and later had became a dispatching and ham radio mic that, by 1977, had long been outdated even for that use, and so they discontinued it.
At the same time, it was being used by harp players and Shure had absolutely NO idea at all that they were using them and by 1983, the put out a reissue of the mic, but with a much longer cable (the original ones had only a 9 foot long cable), so actually, truth be told, any GB mic made from the 80's IS a reissue of some sort.
I am in TOTAL AGREEMENT with Jerry Portnoy that the tone comes from YOU because it's the cold, hard, brutal truth!!!!
I agree with Kingley's post 100% and over the years, I have found that the players most guilty of needing to buy too much gear just don't take enough time to improve their playing skills, including acoustic tone/chops, breath control, and the ability to play resonantly and if those three ain't happening, NOTHING will ever make it happen for you. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@Greg Heumann Greg, you mentioned the EV630 shell. A while ago when I was buying EV630s cheap on Ebay, one of the 4 I got was DOA. I have thought about putting a different element in it, but it has a really odd internal arrangement holding it together. Have you ever put different elements in EV630s? Do you drop the axial screw that holds it together and drill/tap on the circumference joint instead? It is a good diameter for diatonic and chrom, and I enjoy playing them. ----------
P.S. Anyway 520DX is shit, comparing to any stick mic I have. ---------- Excuse my bad English. Click on my photo or my username for my music.
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2011 9:29 PM
I had a 520DX as my first bullet mic. I used it with an amp and was frustrated by feedback (of course my technique was not so great at the time).
I ended up using it mainly straight into the PA with an acoustic trio: Harp, guitar, and fiddle. It added an old-time grit to the sound. We recorded a local live radio show using it though an impedance matching transformer into a tube compressor, and it sounds OK. I eventually accumulated more mics, and traded it for amp repair to a guy who wanted it for a backup mic for his band. ----------
@ jimmy love I own an AC4TV. I got it in trade for a Modded Champ 600 I had. I thought it was a bad trade on my part. I feel that for harp the AC4TV is way too bright. It is also made with a rather wimpy PC board that makes working on it very touchy. I also own an Epi Valve JR. I would have to say that for harp, the Epi is best. The Vox is probably best suited for guitar IMO. I still have the Vox, but it sits unused. I have pulled it out a few times and played it against some of my other amps and it never quite measures up. Some of the other amps I refer to are the Champ 600(which I re-acquired), a regular champ, an Epiphone Valve Jr, some of my 5F1 homebrew amps, a Silvertone with a Kalamazoo circuit, and a Gibson GA5 re-issue to name a few. I even like my Kustom Tube 12 better. I will most likely end up selling it to a guitar player.
Last Edited by on Jan 22, 2011 4:55 PM
I am so freakin' tired of all this "TONE COMES FROM YOU" crap. We ALL KNOW THAT.
I happen to think I have pretty good tone. Guess what - I like MY tone through an older green bullet better than a new one. I didn't say it was crap, or that you couldn't use it. But anyone who tells you gear doesn't matter... well, that's their opinion. Gear is absolutely and positively a part of your amplified tone. And the better you are at getting good amplified tone with ANY mic, the more you will hear the differences between mics. When I started I couldn't tell the difference. Now I can. Yeah, if I go to a jam and there's a 520DX and a junk amp on stage, I will still play it, and I'll still sound good. Just not as good as I CAN sound through, say, one of my mics with a CR played through an Avenger.
Of FREAKIN' COURSE you have to have good tone. And you know what? That isn't enough. You need good microphone technique too - and they are NOT the same thing. But to suggest tone comes "only from you" is pure unadulterated bullshit.
There. I said it.
@Zhin -In my experience, the smaller the amp (like a Kalamazoo, Adam's Masco, the Epiphone, the VHT 6) the more similar ALL mics sound - because these amps tend to break up a lot. I know a guy who plays through a little Premier and he uses an Ultimate 58 - sounds great. Bigger amps tend to bring out the differences between mics more, because they have a lot more power and volume in their "clean" range before they start to break up. ---------- /Greg
Greg - I agree that once a person has their tone/chops and mic technique together then a good mic and amp can add a further dimension to their playing tone wise. That applies generally to players who have a few years playing under their belt though.
The fact remains that so many beginner/intermediate players still believe (or want to) that there is a "magic bullet". They don't want to hear that to get a good sound takes a lot of hard work and hours and hours of woodshedding. We've all met them/been them at some point or other.
In my OPINION ;) the most important element of the mic is how it looks. It doesn't matter how it sounds if it just looks good. I bought a great wooden mic from Greg which allowed me not just to select the different woods to entertain my eyes but also design the grill myself! Imagine that! It's just a bonus that it also sounds great...
Here's a tip for beginning or intermediate players ..... you can make any gear sound better by learning to tongue block and learning to overblow. I did not say "by tongue blocking and by overblowing," I said by LEARNING TO DO those things. The fact is, learning each will help develop your tone and resonance and you'll just sound better, period.
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2011 3:39 AM
Kingley said: "The fact remains that so many beginner/intermediate players still believe (or want to) that there is a "magic bullet". They don't want to hear that to get a good sound takes a lot of hard work and hours and hours of woodshedding. We've all met them/been them at some point or other."
I TOTALLY agree. This is one of those things that is much easier to see in hindsight. I chased and discarded a lot of gear when I was starting out. NONE of it sounded good. Of course, now I know it was mostly me. Then I said "screw it" and I bought myself a Sonny Jr amp because I KNEW I couldn't blame any tone weakness on it. Guess what, it TAUGHT me how to get better tone very quickly. Blaming gear never helps. ---------- /Greg
Thank You Greg I have wanted to say that so many times. Every type of harp sounds different. Every type mic sounds different. Amps sound different from one to the next. Its a little bit of work figuring all this out. for all the people that haven't gotten thru this yet. I think the easiest way to is find the harp you like best. Then buy a small 3 to 5 watt tube amp and find which mic sounds best with what you have. Mics change the amped sound alot. Find one you like and then just practice and play.
my first amp had to be cheep and at that time the only name i knew was FENDER,so it was a CHAMP. i picked the right one.now i have amps from champ too twin,i always fall back on that CHAMP,they can honk like Cotton in the 60`s.the best little harp amp i ever played.thats what i learned on,they can`t be beat....oh ! this question was about mic`s,i`ve used most all of them...the 545 mic has always been the killer for me... also,the last time i saw j,cotton,jr. wells ,a few more, they all played through a PA with a little reverb, man! a amp does only so much its tho voice thats singing...
Last Edited by on Jan 23, 2011 2:17 PM
