SuperBee
6199 posts
Oct 10, 2019
3:51 AM
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Just thought it might be worth mentioning in case anyone is trying to work with transcribed songs; they aren’t always error-free. If it sounds wrong, it likely is.
I have a small collection of transcripts and if I happen to be studying that particular song I’ll usually have a look at the transcript as I go. Mainly I work by ear but it’s interesting to see how someone else has heard it, and to practice my reading.
Tonight I was working on Caravan as interpreted by Gary Primich. There’s a transcription by Glen Weiser which I was looking at. I sat down with a slow down loop and noticed it just didn’t sound right to play the notes in the harp tab. The ‘slide in 6 draw’ sounded wrong.
I looked at the standard notation and sure enough the note was a plain F ie just a straight 6 draw.
Anyway, I’ve found this a few times now in different books, and so far, every time when the tab and standard notation is at odds I’ve found the standard notation to be correct/tab to be wrong.
Big deal I suppose, because my ears told me the truth so why worry about reading the book anyway, but somehow seems to help me remember when I see it written.
There are also numerous places in the McElvey book where the tab is wrong but the music script is accurate. So I’m glad I can interpret Standard Notation and hear.
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The Iceman
3933 posts
Oct 10, 2019
9:38 AM
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Transcriptions are never 100% accurate, no matter what instrument....
Best to use your ears - don't be lazy - even if it takes years to develop them to where you don't need someone else to tell you what notes they are.
Short term benefit to reading transcription is that you get the notes quicker - long term damage is that most begin to depend on others telling them the notes and become lazy about it.
Best to learn to trust your own ears - that goes for staring at a digital tuner to tell you if your note created through bending technique is correct instead of hearing it to be correct.
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The Iceman
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nacoran
10177 posts
Oct 10, 2019
12:34 PM
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Yeah, I was having problems finding a couple notes on a song the other day... not hard notes, but just, well, you know sometimes a song uses different notes than the patterns you've come to expect. After struggling for a bit to find the right note I finally cheated and looked at some tab, and it had all sorts of wrong notes.
And when there is tab out there for a harmonica song, at least on the free sites, it's almost never for the harmonica part. They skip right over that and just tab out the melody line.
That said, I have found one good use for tab. I did it once on the FB page, where I posted a little bit of funny tab and didn't tell anyone what it was too. I should have explained the rules better because people posted what it was right in the comments, but people seemed to like the idea. I have been meaning to make a regular feature of it, but I really need a bunch of easily recognizable, easy to play snippets that would be funny for people to figure out.
My first post was the 'Give me a break, give me a break, break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar' riff. I was thinking of posting more, but I really want to make a list and have them all worked out so I can just throw them up there on a regular basis, and maybe have instructions for people to hit the like button if they figure it out.
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
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The Iceman
3934 posts
Oct 10, 2019
2:08 PM
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Nate - 'Give me a break, give me a break, break me off a piece of that Kit Kat Bar'
Boomers would recognize this melody, but not any millenials nor Gen X'ers...
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The Iceman
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sonvolt13
183 posts
Oct 11, 2019
6:16 AM
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Superbee was not being “lazy”. Primich’s version of Caravan is difficult with the most use of the slider I have ever seen from a blues player. Are classical musicians who learn songs from sheet music lazy?
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The Iceman
3935 posts
Oct 11, 2019
7:08 AM
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sonvolt is missing the point.
I was talking in general terms regarding harmonica players, as that is what this site is about.
In years of teaching, I've found that when harmonica players start to rely on transcriptions, the highest percentage of them never choose the more difficult path (which, over time, definitely gives the best results) of developing their ear - instead, relying on someone else to tell them what the notes are and where they "live" in the harmonica.
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The Iceman
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Honkin On Bobo
1518 posts
Oct 11, 2019
7:47 AM
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I don't think sonvolt was missing the point at all. In fact, the classical musicians/ sheet music/lazy question was right on point from where I sit.
I don't think there's a one size fits all approach to this endeavor we call making music. While I understand the desirability to develop big ears, I also understand the utility of tabs (correct ones that is) from time to time. It kind of depends on the player, where they are in their journey and what they hope to get out of the journey.
I could make a case that if someone early on in their playing used tabs to get them playing and having fun quicker well thats a good thing. Where they take it from there is up to them. For a seasoned player maybe it was a complicated passage they used to know but have forgotten some of it and in a pinch needed to get up to speed quickly and so referred to some tab they had. In neither case would I think they were lazy.
The best teachers usually recognize that if something is working for somebody then leave it alone. Hendrix played holding the guitar the opposite way. Butterfield played upside down. The beatles couldn't read music. Classical musicians learn songs from sheet music. Whatever works. No ones being lazy.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Oct 11, 2019 7:52 AM
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sonvolt13
184 posts
Oct 11, 2019
8:14 AM
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Larry,
There is more than one way to skin a cat. Is there anyone on this forum who could learn Primich’s version of Caravan by ear in two weeks besides maybe Diggs? I use both approaches, learning by ear and using tab and they both have their merits.
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The Iceman
3936 posts
Oct 11, 2019
8:21 AM
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"I don't think sonvolt was missing the point at all. In fact, the classical musicians/ sheet music/lazy question was right on point from where I sit."
It's the First Amendment - right to free speech and voicing one's opinion.
I completely disagree with Honkin...
Classical musicians don't approach their instrument the same as most (not all) harmonica players - especially diatonic harmonica players. Since this site isn't about ALL MUSICIANS, but specifically harmonica players, it's apples vs orange comparison.
(I suppose one may start an OT thread about classical vs non-classical musicians and continue down this path.)
Classical musicians - in general - learn from the original scores - not transcriptions of other's recordings - unless it is, for example, "Pictures at an Exhibition" transcribed and adapted for piano.
That path has lead to the result that most classical musicians have no idea how to improvise.
Since most here would like to improvise as well as play the solos of others, it puts harmonica players in a different category, IMO.
The best teachers usually recognize that if there is a way to improve their student and show them an alternative to what they are doing for long range goals of improvement, it is their "duty" to expose the student to this approach. Whether the student chooses the easy or more difficult path at that point is up to them.
Yes, it takes more effort to train one's ears and less effort to let someone else tell you the notes, so, in my book, those that choose the less challenging path are lazy.
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The Iceman
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The Iceman
3937 posts
Oct 11, 2019
8:26 AM
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"Is there anyone on this forum who could learn Primich’s version of Caravan by ear in two weeks besides maybe Diggs? I use both approaches, learning by ear and using tab and they both have their merits."
I definitely could and it wouldn't take me 2 weeks, because I chose the more difficult path over the years, being a serious musician, of extreme ear training.
This ability also allows me the fun of being on stage and trading ideas with other musicians back and forth, echoing exactly what they play, choosing to echo most and adding a variation, or doing a variation on their theme using some of their basic ideas.
That's what I personally call high level musicianship and a ton of fun!
The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Oct 11, 2019 8:27 AM
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sonvolt13
185 posts
Oct 11, 2019
8:31 AM
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It’s fair to say that most classical players don’t really improvise. Maybe a better analogy would be “is using charts lazy?”. Was Carol Kaye lazy? I’ve been playing many years and along the way I’ve used transcription books. I don’t feel the least bit bad about it. And I’m far from lazy. Larry, if you don’t like the approach, take it up with David Barrett and his peers, not with us. And if you would like to take the next two weeks to learn caravan by ear, I’d be happy to listen to it.
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The Iceman
3938 posts
Oct 11, 2019
8:40 AM
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sonvolt - you seem to be taking things too personally..."chill" would be my suggestion. If you don't like my opinion, don't worry about it. No need to be defensive in your justification of using transcription books. I've looked at them over the years as well (never for harmonica, but, for instance, in studying Bill Evan's voicings on piano - I also used to love playing Dave Brubeck tunes from "Time Out" when I was 16 and used a transcription book back then. Piano is a totally different animal than harmonica, btw).
(btw, using charts vs harmonica transcription is also apples vs oranges).
Personally, I'm not interested in "Caravan" - don't like it much when I play jazz piano either, so you'll understand if I don't spend any time on it for your enjoyment.
You are on your path....enjoy it and don't worry about those other paths all around you - even the short cuts!
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The Iceman
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sonvolt13
186 posts
Oct 11, 2019
9:04 AM
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Larry,
I don’t think I’m being defensive. Just not a huge fan of someone who constantly uses passive aggressive language to put others down and always seems to need to steer the conversation back to how great a player they are.. Calling superbee lazy (in a passive aggressive way) wasn’t cool so I chimed in. I’ll get back to my path now “even the short cuts”.
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The Iceman
3939 posts
Oct 11, 2019
9:31 AM
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sonvolt - please don't go down the path of amateur psychological analysis, personal attacks and projection.
It is not a good look for you.
Keep to discussing the topic, OK?
btw, I didn't call superbee lazy. If he feels that I did, I'm sure he can fight his own battle without assistance from others.
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The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Oct 11, 2019 9:50 AM
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Honkin On Bobo
1519 posts
Oct 11, 2019
9:56 AM
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"Classical musicians don't approach their instrument the same as most (not all) harmonica players - especially diatonic harmonica players. Since this site isn't about ALL MUSICIANS, but specifically harmonica players, it's apples vs orange comparison."
In a discussion about the benefits or lack thereof of utilizing tabs in harmonica playing, and whether that makes a player "lazy", I'd say using an analogy about classical musicians is well within the range of germane subject matter.
"Classical musicians - in general - learn from the original scores - not transcriptions of other's recordings - unless it is, for example, "Pictures at an Exhibition" transcribed and adapted for piano."
Original score vs. transcription here is a distinction without a difference as it relates to sonvolt's point, which is, there are highly respected musicians, to wit, classical musicians, who learn musical pieces by reading as opposed to listening to a recording with big ears. No one, with the possible exception of you Larry, thinks this makes them lazy.
"That path has lead to the result that most classical musicians have no idea how to improvise."
That may or may not be true, but even if it is, so what? As far as I can tell superbee (I've seen his videos and love his playing) started this thread by sharing a story about how sometimes tabs are wrong, so if possible when in doubt, use your ears. He didn't ask: Can tabs help me improvise?
"I definitely could and it wouldn't take me 2 weeks, because I chose the more difficult path over the years, being a serious musician, of extreme ear training."
Congrats Larry. We're all proud of you. Take two special 20s out of petty cash.
Last Edited by Honkin On Bobo on Oct 11, 2019 10:36 AM
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The Iceman
3940 posts
Oct 11, 2019
11:06 AM
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Thanks, Honkin'!
Can use the extra spending $.
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The Iceman
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SuperBee
6201 posts
Oct 11, 2019
7:35 PM
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Of course this has raised a discussion about use of written descriptions of music as a study aid.
I’ve been around long enough to not be surprised about that, and it’s a legitimate discussion.
I appreciate the comments from Sonvolt and HOB which demonstrate the point of the OP is not totally lost.
That’s the only thing which concerns me a bit when replies take the thread on a tangent; that the OP will be lost.
I’m just really trying to say that the transcription I mentioned in the OP has some errors in the tab, but the standard notation seems accurate.
It’s not a random obscure free tab. The book has been available for many years, and I expect thousands of copies have been sold. The recording is moderately popular and for an aspiring chromatic player presents an appropriate opportunity to practice octave splits and slide use. I think it’s possible I might not be the only person reading this board who has a crack at it. It’s kinda fun. There are jumps and a chromatic run from the 5th down to the root of the Dminor chord. I think my chromatic playing can only benefit from working on this. The ‘solo’ parts are pretty snappy too.
I probably should have named the thread with a less generic title, but at the time I was thinking about other occasions on which I’d found the ‘tab’ varied from the ‘script’ and I was probably speculating about how these books are produced and whether the process increases the likelihood of one format being less accurate than the other.
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Thievin' Heathen
1170 posts
Oct 12, 2019
9:38 AM
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I was working on Gary Primich's Caravan a few weeks ago. I put it aside for awhile when I became interested in something a little more easily achievable. I think I'll revisit again. I wasn't aware of Glenn Weiser's book($15.95 E-Download). I was using some of the free tabs and simply assumed what I was perceiving as errors were accountable to other arrangements. The tabs put me in-the-ballpark of what I was looking for, which is consistent with the opinion I already had of Tabs. Why would I assume someone's tabs or transcription to be 100% correct? I suspect there are variations in the transcriptions of classical music as well, but I'm not there yet.
Thanks for reminding me of GP's Caravan, SuperBee.
I saw Gary Primich 1 time (only once) in a bar in Dallas. I was showing the town to an old Navy buddy and the flight crew he flew in with. I took them to a renowned Dallas jazz bar and GP was the band. After about 3 songs the young officers started saying, "I want to go to Hooters, I want to go to Hooters". So, off they went. It reminded me of what a wrong turn I'd taken for those 6 years. Incidentally, that old Navy buddy is currently doing 20 years for possession of kiddie porn.
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SuperBee
6205 posts
Oct 12, 2019
8:26 PM
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Hmm...now I have to go listen again. I’ve just noticed that in fact they have in fact sneaked a key change into the music script. I thought it was written in F/Dminor but I see they’ve written part B in D.
This does make that F I was so excited about into an F#, ie the two forms of written notation are consistent after all.
So I will have to revisit with my ears and see if I can be convinced one way or the other
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Thievin' Heathen
1171 posts
Oct 12, 2019
10:34 PM
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I suspected a key change there in the middle. I don't recall the chromatic tabs making any mention of it. The way I really had decided I needed to approach learning that song was to become very fluent in the scales of the keys used. To me, it seems obvious that GP knew exactly where the exact note he wanted to play was and that is a fluency I have not yet achieved. That song is so "all over the place" on a C chromatic I have been wondering if it might be easier with a different key harp.
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tmf714
3161 posts
Oct 13, 2019
5:53 AM
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I visit a jam here in Florida with Mark Korpi-I will ask him his thoughts on "Caravan"-he was Garys composer and guitar player for over 10 years. I am sure he could at least shed some light on the subject.
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The Iceman
3941 posts
Oct 13, 2019
6:48 AM
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A quick look at the chart and a listen of "Caravan" tells one that it is in 2 parts...the "A" part is minor and the "B" part is major, so SuperBee's observation above is correct.
Plenty of charts available to look at online....
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The Iceman
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