I just saw a video of muddy waters performing this.....he had a tall slender white man on harp......the guy was great but have no idea who he was.....it was not jerry portnoy
The YouTube comments say it's Paul Oscher. He's a great harp player for sure, though on this song, with it being minor, the harp should have been playing the minor thirds if played in 2nd position. Otherwise, 3rd position would have been a good choice. Just my opinion. The band is playing the riff between the vocal lines as G - Bb - C, but he harp is playing G - B - C (2 draw, 3 draw, 4 blow).
Last Edited by Lyle on Sep 10, 2019 3:29 PM
Nah, to my ears Oscher is bending the 3 draw down to a Bb most of the time, isn't he? He's sort of pulling on the note—the "blue 3rd"— and not exactly always spot on, but that's perfectly acceptable—perhaps even preferred—in this style of Chicago Blues, in my opinion. That was the Muddy Waters style. If everyone robotically hits the exact same note at the same time in this style of blues, it sounds really lame. This is a great performance. I'm not sure I would call this tune totally in minor either. But I'm still learning that kind of thing...sounds like G major blues to me with a few minor chords thrown in here and there by the guitars....
Don't get me wrong, I think he's a great harp player, and this performance doesn't irk me too badly, but it does irk me, as his 3 draw really should be a half step bend. Sometimes he's playing a regular 3 draw, and in the cracks at other times (which is what some refer to as the "blue 3rd" although no such "in between" note is available on piano for example). Playing the "blue 3rd" or "in between" note is acceptable in major key blues (except on the IV chord if it's a dominant 7th), but not necessarily in minor keys. If the song is minor, you really should play an in-tune minor 3rd note. In this particular Muddy Waters tune, the I chord is a G minor 7, and the IV chord is definitely minor as well. If it's a regular C minor, then the natural 3 draw (B) note wouldn't necessarily clash, but if it's a C minor 7, the 3 draw note (B) would clash with the Bb contained in the C minor 7 chord, which is basically, C-Eb-G-Bb, and would create the same unpleasant dissonance as playing the natural 3 draw over a minor I chord (Gm7 in this instance). Again, this is not an attack on any particular player, it's just a musical observation. You don't hear these same types of "mistakes" being made on other instruments as often, as the notes are easier to get on most instruments. You have to work a little harder to be in tune on a harmonica, trombone, violin, steel guitar, etc. Anyway... Jason does a good job at explaining this here:
And Steve Baker speaks about minor playing here as well:
Lyle, can't disagree with any of the two videos posted. And thank you for your knowledge! So...Sonny Boy's playing on "Help Me"...sort of the same thing, right? He maybe works around the minor changes a bit more artfully than Oscher (and it's perhaps easier to do on a jazzy-ier minor key shuffle than a slow, lots-of-open-space stomper like the Muddy tune, as he can fly around the harp a bit , quickly avoiding some things) but he still technically flubs it more than a few times. Is that not great either? Irksome? See, to me, this stuff is sort of a push-and-pull that creates some great music. Now, I totally get it on the sort of minor key tunes that Jason Ricci and Steve Baker talk abut...you can't land definitive major clams on vital minor changes on many types of tunes. But in the "Strange Woman" and "Help Me'...I think it's fine, perhaps even cool. But maybe I'm just not a very good listener.
Yes, Sonny Boy's "Help Me" is the same basic progression, just in F minor, and yes, he bends the rules by playing the major 3rd (3 draw natural) in places, but overall it's pretty good. I think one difference is he's soloing over the changes, versus playing the same riff as the band: Fm - Ab - Bb. And the band, especially the organ, is playing a very clear Fm chord. I'm certainly not speaking ill against any of these players. They were pioneers and legends in many cases, but they were likely just playing what they felt without as much thought about the chords. This isn't necessarily a bad thing, and you can get pretty far with this approach, but at some point and in certain contexts you have to pay attention to the music and make sure what you're playing matches with the band/chords. If you're ever uncertain, it's OK to ask your guitar player, for example, to help you out. Get a 2nd opinion from someone who plays a chordal instrument and ask them if what you're playing works well or if there's a better choice of notes.
As for tension and release, (or as you call it, "push-and-pull") yes, this is one thing that makes music and soloing cool, but within reason. The rules are a lot more cut and dry with minor tunes and minor chords, without as much wiggle room. There's still plenty of room to experiment with tension and release, but I personally wouldn't go as far as to play the "in between" note (or as some call it, "blue 3rd") over minor tunes. It still sounds out of tune, and isn't as good of a choice as the true minor 3rd (3 draw half-step bend). This doesn't mean you couldn't play 3 draw half-step bend with some expression or vibrato on it. You certainly can, and it can sound really good, but it does't sound good if the note is too much in the cracks so to speak. And just for clarification, I'm talking primarily about the "note" between 3 draw and 3 draw half step. (It doesn't exist on instruments that can't bend notes, like a piano.)
Now, for good ol' major blues, the "in between" or "blue 3rd" notes sound really nice, but NOT on the IV chord, because, the IV chord in blues will be a dominant 7th or 9th chord 99% of the time. An example of what I might play for the IV chord on the piano in blues in the key of G, would be a C9, with a C in the bass, and Bb-D-G in the right hand. If I chose to play a C7 instead, the chord would still contain a Bb, which means my 3 draw half step bend would be the best choice, because it's... Bb! And of course, I don't mean you can never, ever play a 3 draw natural over this chord, but I wouldn't hang on it. Instead, I would pass over it in a lick like, Bb-B-C for example, or you could play the same notes in reverse order, C-B-Bb (similar, or based on the bebop scale).
Sorry for all of the theory, but I hope this helps. The more you analyze and experiment with things such as this, and pay attention to what's being played over the chords, the better your ears will become. And, harmonica players are notorious for playing whatever, wherever, or cramming blues licks or familiar patterns over everything. This is what helps give harmonica players a bad reputation, and what causes band leaders to say things like, "Oh, sure, you can sit in with us... we can play some blues." Again, this isn't an attack on harmonica players, so I hope no one interprets in this way. I'm just saying a little homework and study can go a long way. With all of the great resources available on YouTube alone these days, there's no real good reason not to take advantage of such freely available knowledge and info. It can make you a better musician in a much faster period of time.
Last Edited by Lyle on Sep 12, 2019 9:49 PM
Widely regarded blues harmonica standard/classic/Mt Rushmore of blues harp playing, Sonny Boy Williamson's "Help Me". Lyle's assessment: "...overall pretty good". Ok, man, I feel like I at least haven't totally lost it. Thank you.
Haha... No, you haven't lost it, and I don't mean to be too hard on Sonny Boy or to seem too opinionated. I can certainly appreciate the song from a harmonica player's point of view, but if one listens and evaluates it as a musician in general, or based on theory, they would hear certain "rules" being broken, namely playing major thirds over minor chords. As for me, I try to find a balance between the two, and I enjoy the song and Sonny Boy's solo.
Just for fun though, if you play Sonny Boy's solo and change all of the major thirds to minor thirds, it sounds really cool. I really do like his phrasing on this an other tunes.
tomaxe, your MT Rushmore guys were still human. You can hear SBWII play a rather crappy solo here, a bit out of his comfort zone. Even LW, BWH and whatever they are called should be listened to with a critical ear:
With the sounds of Chicago style blues, there's a lot of flubbing the lines between major and minor and this doesn't just apply to harmonica playing but also with guitar playing as well and a classic example would be a number of tunes by Magic Sam where this happens quite frequently with tunes like Easy Baby, All Of Your Love, etc.
However, when it comes to other blues styles like jump blues, that's an entirely different story and the sounds od jump blues, which is laregly horn based, a lot of that stuff won't fly.
Even tho it's not harp here, here's some tunes by Magic Sam that flub that line:
The progression is still considered major but he flubs that line over the first four bars on the I chord.
Otis Rush was nototrious for singing more in natural minor over a mjor chord progression.
@Lyle -- I understand what you're trying to convey andlets be brutally honest about it. The average non pro player tends to have both ZERO knowledge about very basic music theory and time and that always hurts them and they'e the ones who still wonder why they often get and deserve to be disrespected on the bandstand as many of them aren't even remotely close to being musically together and for most harp players, they too often think gear does that for them. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Ugh. The thread takes the inevitable turn to the “harp players don’t know anything about theory, don’t listen critically” theme.
Who is not thinking/reading/ listening carefully/critically here?
@Martin: Never said that Sonny Boy wasn’t human, or even called HIM “a (my) Mt Rushmore guy”. I said that “Help Me” (the TUNE, with SB not playing technically corrrect all of the time over minor chord changes) is widely considered a "Mt Rushmore of blues harp playing”. Not just me, that’s kind of a fairly widespread opinion. Album compilations, numerous covers and tributes, YouTube lessons, etc. etc. And I was sort of kidding about it (hence the “Ok, man, I feel like I at least haven't totally lost it. Thank you”) as I was tyrying to make a point about how Lyle’s correct-but-somewhat-dogmatic analysis of how one should never play major thirds over minors can’t be set in stone. Especially in the context of this type of blues style. That’s a simplification of Lyle’s point, perhaps, as he did NOT say you can NEVER do such a thing, but that it somewhat “irked” him on what Oscher was doing on the Muddy tune. Martin, your example posted of the ABFF TV thing is irrelevant to the discussion of the major/minor thing, as it’s just a train wreck of a performance. The singing sounds rough, and of course Sonny Boy seems unfamiliar with ALL the chord changes and structure as well…sounds like it was either un-rehearsed or under-rehearsed or some or all are drunk. Who knows. Irrelevant. You made your point about “heroes being human” or something. Got it, man. We have all heard bad stuff from some of the best. Babe Ruth struck out a lot, too. Thanks.
Now, back to my original point, that I feel, requires some critical listening: Paul Oscher, to my ears, is not playing a straight “B” over a “Bb” on the riff to “Strange Woman”. Granted, he’s not always dead on intonation-wise (one rarely is on harmonica), but he clearly is understanding the chords and is scooping down to that “blue 3rd”, or maybe even a bit beyond it. He’s certainly closer to a Bb than a B almost all of the time. Am I wrong? Hence my original response: "Nah, to my ears Oscher is bending the 3 draw down to a Bb most of the time….If everyone robotically hits the exact same note at the same time in this style of blues, it sounds really lame”. Paul Oscher is an excellent guitar player and he plays piano like Otis Spann. A very fine musician. He’s young here, and perhaps his, say, 3rd position skills were not as good as they came to be years later…but he made a musical choice. I’m sure this band played this tune numerous times that year, on their tours. It’s not like he’s some ammunition belt-wearing Harmonica Joe doofus who was like, “Sounds like Muddy’s in “G”. Gonna grab my C harp and wail! Yeah!”
I wonder what a hardliner like Barbecue Bob would say about this tune? Is Oscher way off?
Lyle, I really appreciate your eloquent and spot on musical theory and your posted video examples. God knows we all could use more of it...and as I said, you aint wrong here, I just think you perhaps chose the wrong context for your didactic analysis of Oscher’s choices on a deep blues like “Strange Woman”. I’m not sure I want to hear Howard Levy playing perfectly intonated 5th position licks on this tune, or whatever it could be. I think your point would have more weight if Oscher was playing “Juke” licks over a BB King uptown-style minor key jazzy shuffle. I get it, I get it. So…am I not listening critically here? I think in the Steve Baker clip he makes a point on how to approach tunes by understanding what needs to emphasized. So true. And yes, I have played, and heard other players, perform “Help Me’ in 3rd position or on a minor-tuned harp. Sometimes it sounds cool, and sometimes it sounds real….tight ass. I really like Sonny Boy Williamson II’s version. A lot. I like the tension it creates at times. It’s more than “overall, pretty good”. In my opinion. It very good. Classic, even.
I think I approached this thread with not only a somewhat critical ear, but an attempt to understand musical context as well. I think Lyle did too, we just disagree on how stringently to apply these rules. Good discussion. Thanks. You may now return to your regularly scheduled “Harmonica players are the dumbest numbskulls on stage, always” program! LOL!
Gareth, or should I say Harpeaux? (I liked some of your playing on your Bandcamp page by the way.)
You said, "Who cares about "rules" man? If it sounds good, it is good."
That's true to a certain extent, but that will only take you so far. Sometimes it doesn't sound good, but it's easier for your ears to deceive you when you don't understand the chords.
Martin - You make a good point about listening with a critical ear. And in regards to that solo, it's also apparent that his 4 blow reed is out of tune. I think he's tries to avoid it, and does a good job of doing so until the end when he goes into his triplet lick that he plays in many of his other tunes This is when it's most apparent that the reed is pretty out, but we've probably all been there at one point or another.
barbequebob - Thanks for your post. You are correct, and hit the nail on the head.
I think we were all posting at the same time, tomaxe! :)
Again, my intention was not to sound dogmatic or opinionated, but harp players are usually quick to get defensive when stuff like this comes up. That being said, I hope no one perceives my posts as an attack on harp players in general or on the famous harmonica players in this thread. My intention was simply to point out some things that may be beneficial to us as harp players.
And to answer your question about the Paul Oscher tune, he's in the cracks - between B and Bb, which is not quite enough in my opinion on a minor tune, but... I'm looking at this from the perspective of a piano player. Not only that, but the 2nd chord in the ascending chord progression is a Bb chord, so it'd be best to be as close to the bull's eye in that spot.
I really hope this helps, and again, no harm or disrespect intended.
Last Edited by Lyle on Sep 13, 2019 9:07 AM
Thanks Lyle, glad you enjoyed it. Don't get me wrong, theory is a great help. In fact, playing the tenor, it's essential. It's the term "rules" I object to. As in "You can't do this, you have to do it like that". I don't dig that man! You could say the blues as a form is built on breaking a "rule" - a minor 3rd over a major chord. I follow Ornette Coleman in this. As to SBWII getting it "wrong", I would have loved to see someone try and tell him that after a gig. I expect a whisky bottle over the head would have been5 his reply! ---------- Harpeaux Edwards
Sure, I understand where you're coming from, Gareth. I use the term "rules" loosely, hence the quotation marks. I guess a better way to say it would be "as a general rule" or "as a rule of thumb" so to speak. There are always gray areas and exceptions, depending sometimes on context.
"Breaking the rules" in blues, by playing a minor third over a major chord is a good point, but that type of dissonant sound is something we find quite pleasing, but the same isn't true when it comes to playing major thirds over minor chords. Echoing Jason's words, "you can always play minor over major, but you cannot play major over minor." He then proceeds to demonstrate what it sounds like if you do it anyway. Even non-musical folks can usually hear how that just sounds bad.
As or someone telling Sonny Boy he was playing it wrong, perhaps he would have replied, as you said, with a whisky bottle over someone's head. And of course, depending on who it was, he might have got cracked right back. Perhaps it would depend on how it was presented. Certainly right after a gig wouldn't be a good idea, regardless of the artist. I'd like to think if someone presented him with the idea that he would receive it, but as has been proven time and again in previous threads on this and other forums, harp players are pretty defensive when it comes to this sort of thing.
So why is it that we as human beings in general like or accept the sound of minor thirds over major chords, but not major thirds over minor chords? Is it because we've trained ourselves to perceive it this way, or is there a more scientific reason or explanation? It would possibly be an interesting study, but I'd rather just play.
Last Edited by Lyle on Sep 13, 2019 11:48 AM
Well I was starting to feel a little sheepish, like I might be that bonehead at the jam, until I listened to Jason's & Steve Baker's videos. I'm OK now.
Here's another classic example of Chicago blues flubbing theline and this time, it's Junior Wells covering a Kenny Burrell jazz classic that has often been a set opener or closer for a l ot of blues bands called Chitlins Con Carne and the key is actually Am and Junior plays a D in 2nd postion even tho it's a minor tune:
---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Hey Lyle - a little OT thread hi-jack, but thanks for that JR UTube link. I was sitting at a bar this afternoon, talking harmonica & experimenting with the harps we had on us, with a Grammy winning jazz multi-instrumentalist who happens to be an excellent harp player who does not use over blows. He pulled out a new Hohner Rocket Amp he just acquired and as we were talking about it I mentioned that Hohner and players claim Rockets will over blow out of the box. Then I remembered, from JR's video that the 6 OB, like the 3 draw bend is a minor 3rd in 2nd. This was all he needed to hear and he was off to the races. 20 minutes later he was over blowing 6 & 5. I'm inspired to re-double my efforts to acquire that skill. And, thanks to Jason Ricci.
I find it interesting that a question about who the harp player backing Muddy was in a video clip degenerated into some elitest-homeboy harmonica school music theory exploration and an academic dissection of blues luminaries who have been dead 35-55 years. While some may, or may not, have read music, they did what felt or sounded right, whether "technically" correct or not. They didn't play by the book. They wrote the book. Yes, there was sometimes sloppy execution, some alcohol and drug tainted sets, and too many after hours recording sessions - the band having already played all night.
But, Sam, SBW, and Muddy's bands were classics and originators who wrote, practiced, played, toured, and supported families. They didn't spend their time in classrooms, pontificating, or reading books about how blues should be played. Guess it's just as well they never knew that they played the music they created wrong. ---------- BnT www.BluesWithAFeelin.com
And I find it "interesting" when posters are defensive and/or dismissive without actually reading entire threads. Oh well. Sorry to offend.
This did not "degenerate" into anything other than an interesting discussion about musical context vs. musical theory in blues. Everyone was very respectful of past blues greats and their contributions, except for perhaps, one post that included an irrelevant clip that added little or nothing to anything.
Forum discussions often take turns into other tangents as the posts go along. That, I thought, was the purpose of forums like this. Harmonica enthusiasts/players/beginners/etc BS'ing about harmonica.
Coming from the "elitist" music theory/in tune (piano tech) background, I just didn't "get it" - some of those old dudes played out of tune guitars, some of the notes were out of tune on the harmonica, etc etc etc - UNTIL - I went to one of the first Port Townsend Blues Weeks in which they showed films of some of these old guys - black and white clips - to where I could watch them - and Son House blew me away....solo guitar/singer - it was THE VISUAL that did it - I "got it" - wasn't about in tune and theory.
It was all about raw power/emotion. ---------- The Iceman
Some of the harmonica examples are slightly inaccurate, but it's worth reading. However, I personally wouldn't play blue notes (on 3 draw) over minor key songs. I would also recommend that new or intermediate players first learn to get the 3 draw half-step bend in tune and on the nose before experimenting with playing the blue (in-between) notes.
@BBQ Bob: I disagree with you 1000% percent about Junior Wells "flubbing the line" in Chitlins Con Carne. I can't believe you're serious--but I know you are.
Junior is doing a harmonica translation of the song, and his tonality is majestic. In fact, if I wanted to point a developing player towards ONE classic cut and say, "That, my friend, is how to hit your blue notes," I would point him towards that cut.
It's ninth degree black belt stuff, Bob. His playing can't be improved upon. Yes, when he moves into the upper octave, and given that he can't overblow, he's hitting the 7 draw, the major 7th. And?
That just doesn't bother me. When African kora players from Senegal play their music, they hit the major third over a minor chord. I was astonished by this, but that's what they do.
In the end, this is all just art. There are theoretical rules, but the whole point of art is that we explore and express ourselves while breaking the boundaries. This is why the blues speaks to me- I don't have to play exactly what someone else has written out for me.
Yea, I don't love the recordings of all players (no matter how great), but many people love some songs that I find hideous. When I go to an art gallery, I don't question why the painter used a specific color or style. They just did what they felt was right in the moment.
That "blue note" 3 hole inhale kinda bend, IMO, is just someone going for a bend and missing the mark slightly. The term "blue note" came after, to explain this somewhat slightly off sound with terminology or to place it within the realm of music theory.
Same can be said for that bending on a guitar string.
Pitch perfect note created through bending technique was not a part of the original blues language - the effect/emotion/power was, so accuracy be damned.
I don't believe these guys took a theory course or were interested in perfect pitch - they had other things to worry about, like how to pay the rent or buy that bottle of Jim B.
As long as that juke joint crowd was a'dancin' and a puttin' benjamins in the tip jar, no need to worry about anything else. ---------- The Iceman
I dunno if this is ‘right’, it’s just a thought I had one time which stayed with me, but I think of ‘blue notes’ as the sound of movement between pitches rather than a specific ‘note’. I mean the sound of the string being bent, the Harmonica note bending in a linear way rather than jumping to the new note.
The Jazz people will continue to debate the use of 1/4 tones, and there is Eastern music which developed completely independent of the European model we are basing this discussion on. There are numerous other explanations besides lack of theory knowledge to explain why a 1950's harmonica player played one note or chord rather than another. I would bet trying to keep up a working set of nailed together Marine Bands played a significant part. Alcohol? So long as the dance floor kept moving and they got paid at the end of the night, how wrong could it be?
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Sep 28, 2019 8:10 AM
