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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! > "Never play on beat one", another AH-HA moment
"Never play on beat one", another AH-HA moment
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Jim Rumbaugh
1329 posts
Aug 14, 2019
6:54 AM
Just like "clap on 2 and 4, not 1 and 3", this is one of those simple concepts that I had never heard before. "Never play on beat one" came from Griff Hamlin. It was his free guitar lesson "How To Play Thousands Of Blues Songs - Video 2" I tried it last night with our gang, and it's good advice. It does make the solo "more bluesey"

Maybe I have been in the dark all these years, but I had to share this with others that may be struggling with their "blues feeling"

here's a link to the 18 minute video address
Griff Hamlin lesson #2

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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
barbequebob
3606 posts
Aug 14, 2019
8:22 AM
It also means phrasing off the 2 and the 4 as well. for blues drumming, that means the snare drum HAS to be on the 2 and the 4 and I've seen rock drummers often do the exact opposite. Also learning how to phrase off the 2 and the 4 makes it SO MUCH EASIER to adapt to playing behind the beat and phrasing off the 1 and the 3 almost automatically can wind up having you play ahead of the beat, which is fine for rock but NOT for blues.

If yu start listening to real blues players, regardless if they're just vocalists, guitarists, harp players, horn players, etc., you'll immediately begin to notice this common thread. Another thing when you phrase off the 1 and the 3 is that too often you wind up seriously over playing and phrasing off the 2 and the 4 forces you to use fewer notes to get the job done.

During my time with many old black blues masters, the one thing they almost universally say all the time is that if you're in a church, especially a black church, with your eyes closes, you can easily tel who is the white guy in the crowd because white people tend to generally clap off the 1 and the 3 and black people in the church do the exact opposite.

Remember, the 2 and the 4 is the BACK BEAT and 1 and 3 is the front beat. In a book by a drummer named Fred Dinkins called It's About Time, which was a drumming instructional book, he didn't have any blues examples, but he shows 6 different tunes taken at 3 different tempos, each one with 3 examples, one being played on top of the beat (sometimes known as in the middle of the beat), ahead of the beat (sometimes called on top of the beat) and also behind the beat (sometimes called in back of the beat) and in every example regardless of the tempo, behind the beat always came out much blusier and when combined with phrasing off the 2 and the 4, it adds to the bluesiness even if the progression isn't a 12 bar blues at all.

It all comes down to one thing that got drilled into my head by real pros: IT'S ALL ABOUT THE GROOVE!!
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
kudzurunner
6581 posts
Aug 14, 2019
9:58 AM
Some of Little Walter's most powerful moments come when he hammers a note on beat 2. Listen to him from the 1:33 point onward. Also a GREAT example at 2:31 on a blue third:



But he also plays on the one a lot. In "Juke," for example. The 36 blow octave hits on the 1.


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Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition

Last Edited by kudzurunner on Aug 14, 2019 9:59 AM
barbequebob
3607 posts
Aug 15, 2019
9:57 AM
Many blues players will play off the 1 if it's a stop time thing and once the 4 chord comes in, then they go back to playing off the 2 and the 4. This not only happens with solos but also with vocals.

BTW, playing off the 2 and the 4 not only makes things sound blusier regardless of the chord progression, but also a lot jazzier and more swinging as well.

Often times white musicians seldom ever learn these things and it brings me back to what an old pro always use to tell me and that's, "there is NO SUCH THING as a detail too small, too unimportant or too boring to pay attention to." Playing off the 2 and the 4 is a very subtle but HUGELY meaningful thing that drastically alters how things sound.

Even when Ray Charles was singing country tunes, much of the time his vocal phrasing was off the 2 and the 4, which made the sound of country music much more bluesy.

These are things you RARELY learn at an open jam.

@ -- Jim Rumbaugh, I'm glad you posted this because this is a nice break from the constant gear threads on harp forums and this is something for ALL harp players to learn if they truly want to become better overall musicians. Most white musicians I've met over the years who aren't blues players regardless of the instrument they play NEVER pay attention to these things at all.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Martin
1586 posts
Aug 15, 2019
12:03 PM
I confess to being one of those "gear thread" starters that BBBob refers to above. It´s so much easier to transmit that kind of knowledge.
Notwithstanding that I appreciate a purely musical observation, and must also confess that I do sometimes enjoy starting on the 1, esp. on those (very few) occasions when I use an F harp and can commence on a bent 1D -- and keep the band silent til bar 2. (A trick that Magic Dick and J Geils sometimes use.)

Last Edited by Martin on Aug 15, 2019 12:04 PM
I'm Henry
1 post
Aug 15, 2019
2:25 PM
I don't understand the concept of "never play on the one." I mean, why not? Do you mean don't start solos on the one?

Edit: Okay, I see now, it's in the context of teaching beginning guitar students various rhythmic approaches to use in soloing.

I start on the one plenty of times, and I'll bet most of you do too.

Last Edited by I'm Henry on Aug 15, 2019 3:07 PM
MindTheGap
2612 posts
Aug 16, 2019
12:57 AM
I like this type of advice, something practical you can apply.

I think it's good to vary it though as playing everything maximum-bluesy gets a bit samey.

That juke riff ends on beat 1, but starts on 3+, so still follows the rule.
Tuckster
1708 posts
Aug 16, 2019
7:30 AM
I know a pro player who's toured Germany. Apparently,the Germans want to clap on 1 & 3. It messed him up. He solved it by getting them to clap on all 4 beats.
barbequebob
3608 posts
Aug 16, 2019
8:14 AM
@Tuckster -- Clapping on all 4 beats is just as classic white as clapping on the 1 and the 3.

Much of white, NON BLUES or JAZZ stuff is phrased off the 1 and the 3 but if you're playing most any black music genre like blues, gospel, r&b, soul, reggae, phrasing off the 1 and the 3 totally loses the groove and FEEL.

Playing most black music grooves like blues, in order to play it correctly and not sound like a 20th rate white rock band, playing off the 2 and the 4 makes the transition to playing behind the beat, the real way to play most black music including blues, much easier.

It's not just with solos, because it also has the do with vocals and rhythm playing as well.

This stuff is extremely subtle but too often, the very subtle things that you often pay little or no attention to will often have a HUGE impact on how everything plays out in the end.

I've seen tons of vocalists outside of their comfort zone trying to sing blues doing all their phrasing off the 1 and the 3 and often times the way the phrase lands, it's not surprising it not only sounds unbluesy, but also at times badly out of tune as well because it's all starting and landing in the wrong place.

You CAN learn it but you HAVE to pay close attention to detail and most of the musicians who do nothing but troll the open jams often don't. As I've said numerous times over the years, phrasing off the 2 and the 4 allows you to get the job done using far fewer notes successfully and guys who tend to play off the 1 and the 3 too often will fall into the trap of being overly busy and clash badly with the groove and feel.

This isn't gonna be something you earn in 10 easy lessons because if you've never paid attention to it, it WILL take a lot of woodshedding just to get used to doing it.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte

Last Edited by barbequebob on Aug 16, 2019 8:56 AM
Tuckster
1709 posts
Aug 16, 2019
8:35 AM
Yep. He tried to get them to clap on 2 & 4 but it wasn't in their cultural DNA. All 4 beats was his solution.
I've heard many harp players who possess decent chops,but fail to play on the 2 & 4. They sound exactly like what you're describing.
Blind Melon
112 posts
Aug 17, 2019
9:47 AM
This discussion brings to mind the scene in The Jerk with Steve Martin.

Last Edited by Blind Melon on Aug 17, 2019 9:48 AM
timeistight
2293 posts
Aug 17, 2019
10:03 AM
Here's Harry Connick Jr. shifting a French audience's 1and 3 clapping to 2 and 4 by playing one bar of 5/4 time. His band follows him without a hitch.

Last Edited by timeistight on Aug 17, 2019 11:40 AM
jbone
2991 posts
Aug 17, 2019
11:12 AM
Like any rule it's not 100%. My harp parts in Summertime and St. James Infirmary- Gambler's Blues- start on the 1 and 3, I believe.

We do some other material- nor necessarily blues- where I hit the 1 and 4 as well.

I will be trying to watch this tonight out live.
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Music and travel destroy prejudice.

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ROBERT TEMPLE II
75 posts
Aug 17, 2019
4:18 PM
If you are going to play any sort of reggae, you may want to play off the 1 and 3. Works for me.
Jim Rumbaugh
1331 posts
Aug 17, 2019
8:40 PM
I agree this is not a hard and fast rule, but it does add a BLUES feel to playing. I'm not talking about Rock, nor reggae. Tonight I was listening to 9 groups play at our local Blues Challenge. Starting on beat 2 was in the minority. But that might also be why a lot of groups lost.

@jbone. Neither Summertime nor St James are classic 12 bar blues. Maybe that's why it works for you, But I swear Summertime could start on beat 2. I'll try it later.

This is still new to me, but it looks very promising.
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theharmonicaclub.com (of Huntington, WV)
jbone
2993 posts
Aug 18, 2019
4:26 AM
You are correct Jim. We do a lot these days that's more roots/rock/Americana, but still a lot of blues by the old masters. RJ, Wolf, Muddy, Walter, Bessie Smith, Memphis Minnie, Jimmy Reed.



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kudzurunner
6582 posts
Aug 18, 2019
7:05 PM
Here's a good example, close to home, of the power of the 2 and 4 that BBQ Bob is talking about. This was the lead track on our 1996 album, "Living on the River."

Mr. Satan is playing percussion with his feet, and except for the first four count-off beats, he is ONLY playing on 2 and 4. So the energy is one-TWO-three-FOUR.

When I start my solo, I instinctively hit on 2, the first two or three phrases I play.



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Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition
nimchimpsky82
1 post
Aug 19, 2019
5:03 AM
Great post Jim; one of the most thought provoking I've come across so far. I was hoping to see some good bluesy examples so many thanks Adam for sharing and explaining!
barbequebob
3609 posts
Aug 19, 2019
9:59 AM
@ -- ROBERT TEMPLE II. Actually, with reggae, especially with the old school reggae like Jimmy Cliff, Toots & The Maytals, Bob Marley, etc., the fact is that the phrasing is generally more off the 3 than anything else, plus that style is also played WAY farther behind the beat than blues is.

Most of the old blues players I were around phrased not only their solos but their vocals off the 2 and the 4, but occasionally of the 1 and the 4, but ALWAYS stayed behind the beat. The old black bluesmasters occassionally did 1 & 4, but unlike many white musicians, they would quickly be back to the 2 and the 4 but with most white musicians, once they hit 1, the stay there like grim death and quicly will get too on top or ahead of the beat and totally lose the groove and feel. SRV often played off the 1 & the 4, BUT he always stayed behind the beat, and that approach gives a more rock edge to his approach yet still stays very bluesy by playing behind the beat and that's something most of his imitators NEVER do.

@ -- Jim Rumbaugh -- Frankly, that outcome of those bands in the blues challenge doesn't surprise me one bit and most of those challenges have at least one REAL pro blues musician and they will ALWAYS pick up on things like this and, like I said earlier in this thread, when bands phrase off the 1 & the 3, nine times out of ten, they will rush like hell and wind up playing AHEAD of the beat, which makes everything totally sound unbluesy and it also wouldn't surprise me that those losing bands also had really horrible time to boot.

Again, playing off the 2 and the 4 not only makes thigs sound bluesier, but also jazzier as well. For many of you, it will take a lot of woodshedding to break a lot of heavily ingrained bad habits to learn it but you can learn it. I remember so many old black pro blues musicians constantly drilling this into my head when I was very young to the point that it was impossible to forget.

@ -- timeistight -- Harry Connick Jr is based out of New Orleans and you'd better know how to play off the 2 and the 4 because much of that music uses that and he is ULTRA knowledgeable as a musician and I have huge respect for him. The 5/4 meter can be a tricky one for a lot of musicians to handle regardless of what instrument you play.

What Adam posts hits the nail on the head. Playing behind the beat is essentially like playing more off the upbeat and rock lives largely on the downbeat more than anything else and you rare hear rockers phrase off the 2 and the 4 as well as behind the beat.
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Sincerely,
Barbeque Bob Maglinte
Boston, MA
http://www.barbequebob.com
CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte


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