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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
Circle of Fifths and Harp Position
Circle of Fifths and Harp Position
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SweetBlood
69 posts
Jul 15, 2018
10:13 AM
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I just had a revelation that I thought I would share with everyone. I have always wondered why the positions on harmonica were numbered as they were, with seemingly no rhyme or reason to it.
My discovery came this morning as I was preparing a lesson for a student on the circle of fifths. This lesson would also be the first introduction to second position playing. I planned to tie this into the circle by showing them that the next interval on the circle of fifths would be your second position key and then it hit me. If you follow the circle all the way around, the positions are in order. So the position numbers on harmonica just go up in fifths.
I don't know why I never noticed this before or if everyone else already knew, but just in case I am not the only one who didn't see it before, I thought that I would share.
Last Edited by SweetBlood on Jul 15, 2018 10:14 AM
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nacoran
9908 posts
Jul 15, 2018
11:17 AM
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Yep. And it's easier to memorize the circle of fifths than one of those position charts. And if you look at the number of sharps and flats in the key it makes sense why you can play on harmonicas that are close on the circle of fifths. C and G, for instance, only have one note that is different. Sometimes I even arrange my harps in my case based on the circle of fifths.
I haven't worked it out myself, but I'm sure if you look at the pattern of steps and half steps in a major key on a piano you could explain why each flat or sharp is added to the keys in the order that they are... that is, how they predictably change one key to the next.
There is a mnemonic to remember the order of sharps and flats. Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle/Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles's Father
I've tried to come up with a good one for the circle as a whole. The best I've got is-
Baby Elephants And Donkeys Go
Baby Elephants And Donkeys Go
Circle of Fifths!
(It needs work!)
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Nate
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PM42
58 posts
Jul 15, 2018
11:56 AM
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Another way it is useful for blues is showing the I IV and V chords easily. One tick clockwise from the key of the song (the I chord) is your V, and one tick counterclockwise from the key of the song is your IV. So in G, for instance, the IV is C and the V is D.
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SweetBlood
70 posts
Jul 15, 2018
2:39 PM
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Nacoran, you are right, there is a pattern to the sharps and flats. I noticed this a while back as well.
When you move clockwise around the circle you sharp the 4 of the previous key. For instance, moving from C to G the F (4 of C) is sharped. Go one more tick to D and you keep the F# and add a C# (C being the 4 of G) and so on.
Moving counterclockwise the flat that is added is the one one tick ahead of you in that direction.
So many patterns there! The more you look at it, the more you see.
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Gnarly
2529 posts
Jul 15, 2018
5:15 PM
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Sharp the 4th, flat the 7th.
Finish the fifth.
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nowmon
178 posts
Jul 16, 2018
11:57 AM
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Look at the circle of 5ths and see that the 6th of a major key is the same note setup, like C major and A minor are the same notes.Or look at it as A minor/3rd, Cmajor, are the same.So you should be able to play Aminor on a C major harp, right.....
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Tuckster
1695 posts
Jul 16, 2018
1:10 PM
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Yes,that's right. All the notes from the CMaj scale are the notes for the Amin scale. You just start on the A note: A B C D E F G A. There are other minors,but this one is called a relative minor.This is the part of music theory I find fascinating-same notes but their position in the pertinent scale changes how they "feel".It's almost magic. Easiest way to mess with it is in the middle of your harp,but those notes are all over the harp.
P.S. Not sure if you meant 3rd position,but if so it's not. I think it's actually 4th pos,but not 100% sure.
Last Edited by Tuckster on Jul 16, 2018 1:19 PM
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dougharps
1785 posts
Jul 16, 2018
3:37 PM
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Positions are related to modes, but not limited to modes. Sharps and flats change the modes to major scales (or other scales). The modes of the C major scale use only the notes of the C scale, but with different starting notes, changing the pattern of whole and half steps.
Example with C being first position, but the same relationships applies in other keys:
POSITION______________1ST SCALE NOTE___MAJOR SCALE NEEDS
12th - Lydian Mode__________F____________Bb
1st - Ionian Mode__________C
2nd - Mixolydian Mode______G____________F#
3rd - Dorian Mode__________D____________C#, F#
4th - Aeolian Mode_________A____________G#, C#, F#
5th - Phrygian Mode________E____________D#, G#, C#, F#
(6th - Locrian Mode_________B____________A#, D#, G#, C#, F#)
Note that sharps and flats are added in the order of the circle of fifths!
I only wrote the modes with which I am familiar, though I added Locrian without having ever used it. The Dorian, Aeolian, and Phrygian are minor modes I have used. Aeolian is the natural minor mode. I tend to use modes to find scales that fit songs with little need for extended technique to add missing notes (low hanging fruit!). I mainly use positions for their modal possibilities, only using technique for adding notes when necessary.
When a song shifts between G major and E minor, I use a C in fifth position. Playing a position it is possible to use bends and overbends to achieve the missing sharps or flats to play other scales on the position starting notes, including major and minor scales and others.
You can use the Circle of Fifths to start on any key and the modes apply, but the starting notes will change to reflect the circle order wherever you start. Having my harps ordered by the Circle for decades, the Circle of Fifths now resides in my memory.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jul 16, 2018 3:52 PM
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garry
725 posts
Jul 16, 2018
5:31 PM
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I only play in a few positions (2, 3, 1, occasional 5), but I find it easiest to just arrange my harp case in Circle of Fifths order. So the main 7 in my case are Bb, F (low), C, G, D, A, E. For a song in E, 1st position is the E harp, 2nd, the one before (A), 3rd, two before (D), etc. Much easier than doing the mental calculations on the fly or keeping a Cof5 chart in my case. The other side of my harp case continues the pattern for Gb, Db, A, Eb, plus a couple of spares for my most used keys.
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STME58
2069 posts
Jul 16, 2018
6:44 PM
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I have shared this before, but it seems appropriate here. It is an exercise in developing the circle of fifths from just a keyboard and it brigs out a lot of the points mentioned in this thread.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jul 16, 2018 6:44 PM
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STME58
2070 posts
Jul 16, 2018
6:51 PM
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As Tuckster mentions, 4th position is the relative minor of the key the harp is in. Because of the way the circle of fifth works, 3rd and 5th position differ from 4th by only one sharp (or flat), That is why these are also common minor positions. I find third to be very versatile as from the root on the 1 draw, you can play either a major or a minor scale using only draw bends.
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STME58
2071 posts
Jul 16, 2018
6:57 PM
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Here is a video I made a while ago in an attempt to explain the modes Dougharps explained in text, using the instrument.
Last Edited by STME58 on Jul 16, 2018 6:58 PM
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groyster1
3211 posts
Jul 17, 2018
4:52 AM
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circle of 5ths diagram is invaluable reference
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