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Dirty-South Blues Harp forum: wail on! >
When you get leapfrogged at a Blues Jam
When you get leapfrogged at a Blues Jam
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agarner
6 posts
Jan 24, 2018
8:26 AM
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I'm sure we have all had this happen at one point or another:
1. You show up to a blues jam prior to the start, stoked to escape everyday life and play.
2. You meet with the jam leader and he/ she knows you are there.
3. House band plays.
4. Friends of house band arrive after you.
5. Friends of house band instantly jump on stage.
6. More friends of house band arrive and follow the other group of friends.
7. You don't get a chance to play until later, if at all.
They all played blues, and didn't have a harp player. I could have played with them, but the jam director didn't call my name.
I have found many great jams that are unbelievably respectful and this post is not here to complain, but this happened to me recently and I want to know how everyone best approaches the situation.
I didn't say anything and simply just went home disappointed. I want to return to the jam and actually play, but how do I approach the situation that happened earlier without pissing off the jam director and blackballing myself all together?
Thanks!
Last Edited by agarner on Jan 24, 2018 8:27 AM
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Jaybird803
40 posts
Jan 24, 2018
8:41 AM
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This happened to me once. I returned a second time and it happened again. I never went back. There are plenty of other venues. I did mention the second time to the host what had happened the first time.
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Littoral
1558 posts
Jan 24, 2018
8:55 AM
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Harp players are a pain in the ass. You've seen it, it's true.
When the club is trying make money these things get whacky. In your case the draw for the club is you're more new people. That's a risk but whatever they get is always entertaining -as long as there's a strict limit on songs. I like 2, maybe a third. The house band gets one to start, that's it.
The advantage to catering to certain regular groups/players is that they'll be there next week spending money and they'll bring other people with them. If a serious player is in the house they usually want them up there.
I'm not sure why they have a list if they don't follow it.
Suggestion: Sign up with another player you can do something with. That helps the presentation and gives you more presence on the list.
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jbone
2457 posts
Jan 24, 2018
9:54 AM
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I've seen it all over the years, from being totally ignored, to getting up for 2 half songs to walking in and being recruited to lead the house band whose singer didn't show and playing most of the night for free.
It's true, a venue wants people in seats drinking and eating and tipping the staff. And it's true, a jam host will go with the known quantity and especially the familiar faces, often to the exclusion of new people.
I very rarely go to jams these days for these reasons. Even if you are a great player with great manners you can be overlooked. Or disrespected, whatever. I don't feel a need to make my mark that way any more. Instead my wife/duo partner will walk in a place when we can talk to the entertainment person and see if we can book a gig. We go in ready to audition. 2 or 3 songs acoustic.
We ran a jam in Clarksdale MS some years ago at an out of the way place and brought in some folks. We always got everyone up and everyone who wanted a ride or two got to be in the spotlight.
With a busy venue the emphasis is different and not so much to my liking. I would not feel right about getting up before someone who was there early.
We'd rather find a street corner, farmers market, whatever, or book a gig someplace.
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Martin
1368 posts
Jan 24, 2018
9:59 AM
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A jam that I attend every once in a while has a functioning system: The person in charge form groups. You obey the person in charge. "OK, harmonica, check with X in the green band, they could probably use a harmonica." (Every group member gets a small coloured dot to put on his/her lapel.)
Every group plays three songs, estimated at ca 15 min. (This is a delicate part, since the local Jimi Hendrix might very well arrive and he (always a he) then plays 36 choruses, a couple with his teeth, thus disturbing the system a bit.)
If you´re a trusted, and perhaps even appreciated participant, you can get a little bit of special treatment, but mostly I just go with the flow.
The aim here is to discourage favouritism, as well bands using the jam as some sort of informal practice area. It has upsides and downsides, but it´s quite orderly.
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snowman
311 posts
Jan 24, 2018
10:14 AM
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Once again I agree with Littoral=
I think each time is different, each situation is different,but one thing remains the same;
We Harp players are GUILTY until proven INNOCENT.
we tend to be obnoxious;
play licks over someones singing, not fills or chordal back up,but licks
They expect feedback rom the amp and it scares other players-
-- most of us don't know whether a song is minor, or maybe has sweet chords like major 7 and what notes to avoid etc
Theres a fine line between being a "victim" and speaking up--Its touchy
Maybe ask the other players [guitar ,bass, drum, keys] --ask the other players if they know certain songs--u may hit one that the guitar player loves etc
I ask for "work song" "whammer jammer" "room to move" "Mr magic" "put it where u want it etc---
I will usually ask the favorite guitar player these questions and tell him " hey give me a plug, I won”t play leads over yr leads or on top of anyonr
or ask the guitarist if he knows "Thrill is gone" its minor and different---or Sweet home chicago, a song everyone knows etc
On a Blues cruise which costs about $2300 I kept getting bumped by the new "young Phenom" everytime he walked in the room-- he was immediately up on stage-- 3 times it just happened to be when I was up next-
at another venue the jam host asked why I walked out---I told him the truth--
I paid $2300 and I love it when u luck out at the jam and get up with players u like- its like the kid stole money from me
Mom N dad paid for his ticket "com on man"
I also told him, the arrogant little poop, deliberately sat next to me and my buddy with his wireless while playing as if to say " aren't I bitchen"
I NEVER get competitive about playing-unless a situation like that comes up--IF someone is better than me Im stoked, an opportunity to learn--
Talk to the other players let them know yr respectful
Last Edited by snowman on Jan 24, 2018 10:17 AM
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1847
4659 posts
Jan 24, 2018
10:21 AM
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i have been on the business end of that base ball bat. and i have also been that guy. i bet i have a million stories.lol
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SweetBlood
30 posts
Jan 24, 2018
10:29 AM
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Man that's tough,
It has happened to me too, and it is hard to tell whether it was intentional or not. It could be that the host just let things get out of hand with his friends and didn't manage the time wisely. No excuse, but not all jam leaders are good ones.
It could also be that the guy is just a jerk! Or is leary of new people. Some jam environments can be pretty snobby and if they don't know you, they are hesitant to get you up. It reminds of of playing pick up basketball as a kid where no one is ever going to pass the ball to the new guy until you prove that you don't suck. A jam shouldn't be like that, but unfortunately sometimes it is.
I would go back and talk to him again, chances are it was an honest mistake. Pay attention to how other musicians are treated, that will tell you a lot about the mood of the environment. Are people who are less skilled looked down upon or are they treated respectfully? Try to separate your emotion from it, and observe the situation in as unbiased a manner as possible, and you will find out whether or not to keep wasting your time there.
A friend of mine went to a jam recently that he never went back to because the jam leader had to try to cut the heads of every other guitar player. Unfortunately these things happen. If you are near a big city there will probably be multiple jams to choose from. If you are in a rural area, sometimes there is one jam if you are lucky, and you have to make the best of it or just opt out.
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JSalow
30 posts
Jan 24, 2018
10:32 AM
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"most of us don't know whether a song is minor, or maybe has sweet chords like major 7 and what notes to avoid etc"
Then why are they up there at all? That's completely unacceptable. That's basic musicianship. If a person doesn't understand the very basics like major, minor, and basic chord tones, the person isn't a musician and has no place playing with musicians. It's just holding an instrument and playing random notes.
This doesn't mean you must have an advanced understanding of music theory. But come on, major and minor are on the very floor of music education.
Last Edited by JSalow on Jan 24, 2018 10:33 AM
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hvyj
3514 posts
Jan 24, 2018
10:45 AM
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The next time you go and right after you sign in, talk to the jam leader and politely say something like, "You know, I got here early last week and signed in right away, but never got called up to play. Is there anything else I'm supposed to do in order to get called up?" That should work.
What happens is the stronger players often are not interested in jamming with less experienced players because they get in the way when the experienced players are trying to develop or try out new musical ideas (which is why really good players who have other opportunities to play go to jams). And because they are good, the house band wants them to get up and play.
The absolute best strategy is to develop a musical friendship with one of the stronger players so they will have the jam leader get you up when they are up. This requires a either a certain level of musical competence OR a willingness to pay attention to what the stronger non-harp player can teach you and incorporate it into what you play so you have a common basis for musical interaction.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jan 24, 2018 10:55 AM
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SweetBlood
31 posts
Jan 24, 2018
11:05 AM
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People have good points about harp players often being a nuisance. I played bass in a blues band for a while and we were constantly having harp players show up and ask to sit in during gigs. Almost none of them could play, and they all thought they were great. Mind you, these were not jam sessions. The other guys in the band would always let them play. I was just there to make a couple extra bucks so I just did what I was told, but the lack of etiquette, and the overconfidence in thier own ability drove me nuts. You just don't see this happen very often with people who play other instruments.
Rant over! Lol
Last Edited by SweetBlood on Jan 24, 2018 11:06 AM
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1847
4660 posts
Jan 24, 2018
11:56 AM
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sign in with a red marker..
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Littoral
1559 posts
Jan 24, 2018
1:13 PM
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Harp Players...
The beginning of the learning curve for harp isn't very steep. If you happen to have the right key you can sound ok, for a minute. Other instruments require a higher level of skill to get anything out of. The consequence is a lot of harp players that know just enough to think they know.
rant over
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nacoran
9717 posts
Jan 24, 2018
1:14 PM
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A busy venue can be hectic. It's quite possible they just missed your name. I think the advice to go back and politely mention it the next time is spot on. If it's a good jam that should fix the problem. If it's not, then you have your answer.
As for lousy players getting up, it depends on the jam. If you are running a jam that auditions people or only gets people who are top quality up you should advertise that to people ahead of time. I do think there is absolutely a place for less experienced players to get up though. It's sort of reverse dues... someone let them up on stage when they were starting out, so it's their turn to let some newer players up occasionally. You can rock to jam tracks all you want and completely fail on stage. The only way to learn how to deal with playing on stage in front of people is at jams and open mics. That's where you find people to network with.
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Nate
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indigo
447 posts
Jan 24, 2018
1:36 PM
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I've been on both sides of the fence ie i've been a punter but also have been the guy taking names and trying to organise the night.
Pet hate.Guys who only want to get up with their band mates and use it as a band rehearsal with us as their audience.
That's not jamming.
People who just flat out don't know how to play their instrument well enough to be able to add anything and/or to keep up with the others onstage.
Yes harp players are the most common offenders.(one guy told me that he had bought his first harp a couple of days before he came to the jam)
But we've had the odd drummer who could totally wreck any song called out.
A bad harpist can be a pain in the ass but it is unlikely he will wreck a song if the rest of them are good.
A bad drummer or bassist will certainly do it.
And don't get me started on people who come to a Blues Jam and don't know anything about the music at all.
Calling out a hit pop song from the 80's or some such to a bunch of 12 bar blues guys of varying talents ain't going to work.
Or someone getting up to do the vocals/lead guitar and telling everyone that he is tuned down a half step..
I could go on but.......suffice to say it ain't easy to run a good jam but when it works it is a great thing to be part of.
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The Iceman
3459 posts
Jan 24, 2018
1:39 PM
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Most jams seem to be pretty nice...however, as a newbie unknown, you may be put through the Fraternity Haze.
Once in a while, the person running the jam just has a weird elitist attitude and a bit of a power addiction - perhaps coupled with what HE was subjected to when he started out...you know, kinda like Jr High School = new 7th grader running down the hall gets tripped by that 9th grader. 7th Grader can't wait until he is a 9th grader so he can do this to an incoming 7th grader.
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The Iceman
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Tuckster
1676 posts
Jan 24, 2018
4:21 PM
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Sounds like you had a bad jam leader. He had plenty of opportunities to get you up,but instead catered to his regulars and buddies.Being politely persistant might help,but you have to do it tactfully.
JSalow- "If a person doesn't understand the very basics like major, minor, and basic chord tones, the person isn't a musician and has no place playing with musicians."
We all have to start somewhere. In the past,I was that guy,BUT once I heard the tune,I instinctively tried to play correctly. Of course I hit some bad notes,but I KNEW they were bad notes.Going to jams is one of the only opportunities beginners get to play with other musicians.I've learned the most from bad mistakes.It's a valuable teaching tool.
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Arrick
137 posts
Jan 24, 2018
4:25 PM
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Been through this a time or two also. The best jam experience I’ve had is when I made buddies with the house band. It took me 4 visits to go from “guy who gets ignored” to “friend of the house band.” I’ve seen people drive 2 hours to come to the jam and never get invited up. It’s heartbreaking. I try to be the advocate for the newbies now.
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Philosofy
860 posts
Jan 24, 2018
4:37 PM
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I have two horror stories. First was a local jam, and I waited three hours only to get up with the last set. They pulled up a 'singer' who could only do rap. That didn't go well.
The second was a jam at BB King's place in Nashville. I was in town on business, and just walking by, and saw it was jam night. I went in, put my name in, but asked if I would be up soon. I only had an A and a C in my pocket, but told them I could easily walk back to the hotel to get my full set. They told me I would be up soon, and they would make it work with the keys I had. Over the next two hours, I asked about three times, and was assured I shouldn't go, because I would be up soon. Then another harp player showed up, and they took him first. I think it was Tim Gonzalez (I didn't know him at the time, so I'm not sure.) He blew the roof off the place, then they called me. I got up, and the guys I'm playing with were Stevie Ray wannabes, and tuned down half a step, so they wanted me to play in sharp and flat keys. That night sucked.
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BnT
132 posts
Jan 24, 2018
10:51 PM
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I've seen so many variations of the not getting to play scenario, e.g., Jam leaders who:
1. routinely let up personal friends or drop-in "guests" ahead of signed up players.
2. let everyone sign the list but only people in "the clique", play.
3. played an hour opening set but suddenly "have to come back up and do a number" cutting short a jammer who outplayed him.
4. ignore the sign-up sheet.
5. have no sign-up sheet.
6. always put the same certain harp players up with the worst musicians; saving the best backing musicians to play behind harp players who are their friends.
So ask the jam leader what it's going to take for you to play, if he has a friends first or only policy, etc. If you get the answer you want, remind him you're there next time you go. If not, don't go back. Find another jam.
Some jam leaders get overwhelmed and will appreciate subtle reminders. Others have egos larger than Western Australia and won't care what you or anyone says. You are more likely to be ignored than blackballed.
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BnT
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RyanMortos
1662 posts
Jan 25, 2018
6:02 AM
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Seems to me all you can do about this is talk to the host and hope it changes and if it doesn't change you can choose to find another open mic jam. Or better yet get some gigs or host your own jam then your not dependent on a host who doesn't have your interests in mind. Even at my favorite jams with my favorite hosts that I'm buddies with there's been nights I was supposedly accidentally only up for one song the whole night. I've been to a bunch of different jams with different hosts and they're normally pretty fair. Some I've been to let everyone have 3 songs and they're done while others have been more flexible with this whereby you might get more songs occasionally or someone else might. But it does seem the standard if a pro musician walks in the jam they get higher priority or to sit in with the opening house band. It's not exactly fair but perhaps a good motivator to reach that level yourself.
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~Ryan
See My Profile for contact info, etc.
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Philosofy
863 posts
Jan 25, 2018
7:13 AM
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There's a jam in Lansing MI with a different format. Everybody is up for every song. They go around, and everyone gets a solo. Guitars, harps, sax, bass: doesn't matter. They are long ass songs, but they are fun. If you get tired, you just sit down, and jump back in when you want.
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hvyj
3515 posts
Jan 25, 2018
9:30 AM
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TRUE STORY: Half of the house band at a certain jam are guys I've been in bands with, so I'm allowed to show up, set up, play on whatever tunes I want. Another harp player shows up. At the suggestion of the band leader I lay out so he can play and I'm more than happy to do so.
A singer comes up and calls MISS YOU, the Stones song with the Sugar Blue harp lick. The harp player can't play the hook so blows blues fills. Then the singer calls COLD SWEAT. The harp player lays out completely because he can't play it at all. Then a singer/guitar player comes up and calls INTO THE MYSTIC. I don't know WTF the harp player was playing, but it had nothing to do with the melody or horn licks of that tune. The singer/guitar player then calls LOW RIDER. The harp player kinda sorta approximated the hook, but also blew a lot of extraneous blues fills, stepping all over the vocals. Then a female singer came up and wanted to do I'D RATHER GO BLIND at which point the band called me back up.
The harp player threw a hissy fit complaining about not being given enough stage time and was being a real asshole about it. He was apparently oblivious to the reality that he was ruining the other jammers' good time because he didn't know what he was doing and was creating bad musical experiences for the other musicians who were on stage with him. Personally, I would have been fine with letting him play the whole set, but, no one else wanted to put up with it. FWIW.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jan 25, 2018 9:45 AM
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1847
4664 posts
Jan 25, 2018
7:52 PM
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this is a great topic. i like all the responses. i have a question do you own an amp?
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indigo
451 posts
Jan 25, 2018
8:59 PM
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Yep!?
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1847
4666 posts
Jan 25, 2018
9:13 PM
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man that's not fair.... you have more than one
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jbone
2458 posts
Jan 26, 2018
12:04 AM
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When I went to jams, the last amp I owned was a Bassman 4x10. I managed to get it on stage at a jam once and it was awesome. Another time I lugged it to Clarksdale and was not allowed to play through it at GZ, and got stuck with a crappy Peavey that was a feedback king instead.
Jams have different purposes.
1) Manager wants clientele to increase AND SPEND MONEY.
2) With that in mind a jam gets advertised and new players come out. Some hope to learn stuff and show what they know on stage.
3) There are the jams where it's invitational. If the leader knows you, you get a shot, if he doesn't you may get up late if at all.
4) Some jams, depending on who's running it, can be a spot for teachers and learners to mesh. I learned a lot at jams for some years. They can also be a challenge for not very accomplished players to either grow or go. As in hvyj's post above.
5) A side benefit of going to jams can be, meeting local players and putting bands together, recruiting members for existing bands, etc. Another can be, a new band may get to use a jam for audition purposes if they are well mannered about it and check with the place's entertainment guy or gal.
6) Jams can be a place for someone new in town to get acquainted with the local scene.
So they do serve a purpose. True some people who run a jam are controllers or want to just hang with their buddies but that's par for the course. Other people who run things do a very good job and look forward to every week as an opportunity to meet new folks and maybe hear/learn new stuff.
The only way to know how a jam is, is to go. I was lucky early on in that I was kind of adopted by a house band and some other musicians and shepherded along for a time, until I began to get my chops together. I was able to hit a lot of jams and see a lot of live local music in the 90's and that was a plus.
Not all the jams were "friendly" but guess what- if you plan on booking gigs you need a thick skin anyway!
You go with an open mind and keep looking if you aren't happy.
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waltertore
3027 posts
Jan 26, 2018
9:27 AM
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I sat for 2 years - 7 hours every Sunday - at Dan Lynch's blues jam in NYC before I finally got a chance to play. Then it took about a year to get up at Mark Naftlin's Blue Monday at the Sleeping Lady in Fairfax, CA. Eli's Mile High Club took a good 6 months as well. That was the norm as blues jams were for pros and you had to prove yourself first. Today it is sign up, get your time, and play. Things sure have changed!
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Smiling With Hope Pizza-pizza with a social cause
my videos
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1847
4668 posts
Jan 26, 2018
9:53 AM
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everyone gets a trophy.... perhaps they could put people up in alphabetical order.
it would make things easier. lol
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1847
4669 posts
Jan 26, 2018
10:45 AM
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no child left behind....
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ted burke
620 posts
Jan 26, 2018
11:15 AM
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The last open jam I was at was at Blind Melon's in the San Diego beach area, a blues jam, and the room was lousy with guitar tappers , grotto mouthed garglers posing as vocalists, and horde of harmonica players in the audience, jamming along with the creaking 12 bars the band was putting out . The barstools and cocktail tables were awash in wheezing, freewheeling waves of unsubstantiated merit. Those not tooting along were arguing over who was better, Bob Dylan or Graham Nash. On stage was the city's super star harmonica player, Sturdy Gert Quakeshaker, a large man with a leather harmonica ammo belt draped over his chest. The band kicked into a shuffle in 17/2 time . Sturdy Gert took a large breath, sucking out all the air in the bar , causing everyone to pass out for a minute,. Good thing I brought my oxygen mask to this jam. When everyone came to, they saw the legendary Sturdy Gert Quakeshaker had exploded. It was a mess, and I never got to play.
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www.ted-burke.com
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SweetBlood
33 posts
Jan 26, 2018
11:24 AM
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Ted Burke! That was awesome.
Reminded me of posts I used to see on Facebook from the recently deceased Joe Frank. If you do not know who Joe Frank was, you should look up some of his radio shows. He would do long spoken pieces filled with descriptive language and absurd situations.
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1847
4670 posts
Jan 26, 2018
11:25 AM
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What if we did a quick interview when the band is introduced, on guitar we have
Mr. bad bad Leroy brown. So, Leroy how long have you been playing guitar? Hmmm.
Since I was eight…. So, you have over 10,00 hours playing guitar? Yeah well over, I also play bass and drums, and xylophone, all by ear, never had a lesson. Alright lets have a hand for Leroy brown.
On piano we have lang lang…. so tell me, when did you start playing music? I think I was two.
Awesome….. mr. lang lang everbody… thunderous applause…..
Put your hands together….. on harmonica, we have mr. 47…. So when did you start playing music? Well, my grand pa gave me a harmonica when I was seven, let’s see, i bought another one when I was twenty-one…. I’m sixty now, so I guess I have been playing all my life……..What key are we in?
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RyanMortos
1665 posts
Jan 26, 2018
12:48 PM
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Not sure if the changes walter is on about are for better or worse but if jam #1 treats me well & has me up a fair amount of time and jam #2 makes me wait a few jams then gets me up for one song with no solo it's easy to guess which jam I'll be supporting and telling my friends about.
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~Ryan
See My Profile for contact info, etc.
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indigo
453 posts
Jan 26, 2018
2:02 PM
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You are lucky to have more than one jam available.
Here in auckland NZ,a city of over a million people there is one(and it is slowly dying)Blues is very much under the radar here.
The is one advantage to that though in that every jammer gets to get up on stage and often twice or more.
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waltertore
3028 posts
Jan 26, 2018
2:49 PM
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"Not sure if the changes walter is on about are for better or worse but if jam #1 treats me well & has me up a fair amount of time and jam #2 makes me wait a few jams then gets me up for one song with no solo it's easy to guess which jam I'll be supporting and telling my friends about."
I share my stories as a history experience. In my youth clubs were for pros or those very close to it. On the weekends touring bands would be the norm with the top local acts opening and headlining during the week. These guys were dedicated to the life. Many were older and did pro touring in their youth and or stayed local but devoted their life to the lifestyle. Monday was the blues jam but blues jam meant pro or those ready to step into it. It kept the music top notch. For instance a blues jam would usually have the top local guys and touring ones if stuck in town on a Monday. Local guys were people like John Lee Hooker, Louisiana Red, John Paris, Lowell Fulsom, Charlie Musslewhite, Jimmy McCraklin, Freddie Roulette, and that level player. Amatuers were confined to the basement for their fun. Nowadays jams are come one come all. I am not meaning anything negative but that isn't my scene as one had to pay a lot of dues to get on a stage in my youth and being in the audience was often as good as being onstage. Now you would be called stuck up if you denied people immediate access to playing and most would walk out or never come once they heard the deal. Walter
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Smiling With Hope Pizza-pizza with a social cause
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Jan 27, 2018 9:15 AM
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garry
699 posts
Jan 27, 2018
6:01 AM
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Glad they've evolved to satisfy the needs of all, not just pros.
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dougharps
1687 posts
Jan 27, 2018
7:58 AM
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With regard to being passed over at a jam, I think direct communication and asking about it is the best way to go.
I have mixed feelings about open jams vs. pro jams.
When I resumed playing out again after over a 20 year break from public playing, I was already good enough to play in the correct key and follow changes, add to the music and not hurt the overall song. I had jammed a lot with friends in the past and worked up to playing in a band before laying off for family life.
I didn't sing then, and just played as a sideman. I had some rough edges with timing and working the groove, but in the big picture, I didn't suck and did not damage the song. Overall, my participation added positively to the song. If what you play with a band on stage makes the song worse than without you, you shouldn't be playing on stage.
The jam was a good place to hone some skills and network with other local musicians. It allowed all levels of players: just sign up. Pros would play, too, and offered good examples to help improvement on the part of other less skilled players.
Sometimes I had to wait quite a bit before being called. Sometimes I played right away. Sometimes the group called to the stage did not work out at all. The jam manager from the host band would try to put groups together. Sometimes it was pretty good, sometimes there were guitar players who soloed through the whole song, even over vocals. Sometimes people confused rock with blues. Sometimes the rhythm section was horrible and could not establish a groove. Sometimes the rest of the band just couldn't get it together to play a blues song. I felt like my harp performances at jams hinged upon the luck of the draw.
On a few occasions while in the audience I was embarrassed by an inexperienced beginner harp player blowing the wrong notes, off time, over everything. The wrong key of harp and wrong position. It was sad, and screwed up the song. Sometimes a guitar player or sax player would play similarly poorly, but generally a beginner on harp was the worst.
I think that there are places for jams requiring some level of competence in those going on stage. If you are unknown to the band you should be willing play a brief audition to demonstrate you won't wreck songs if called. Having chaotic train-wreck pickup groups play on stage does not strengthen a jam and may hurt attendance.
I think that if you are a rank beginner on any instrument you do not belong on stage at a jam. You should play with friends or at workshops to build skills before getting on stage for public performance. I don't know about requiring that all the players at a jam must be pro level, I just believe that there should be some basic degree of competence on stage. Otherwise, play with friends at house jams.
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Doug S.
Last Edited by dougharps on Jan 27, 2018 8:03 AM
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Barley Nectar
1340 posts
Jan 27, 2018
10:44 AM
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Fuckum, woodshed till you can blow the frets off their guitars!
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Honkin On Bobo
1502 posts
Jan 27, 2018
1:21 PM
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You could cut the egotistical bulls**t in this thread with a knife.
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Thievin' Heathen
949 posts
Jan 27, 2018
2:48 PM
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It is difficult to find guitar players who know any strictly lead harp kind of music. Most have been plating Hendrix, Santana, Joe Walsh, SRV, etc. for their entire lives. We're looking for the rare aficionado of J. Geils, Muddy Waters, Mike Bloomfield, Johnny Winter.... Unless they know, or have known, a serious harmonica player, they probably have no comprehension.
Don't even get me started on what passes for a drummer at jams. I think most are trying to follow the guitar player(s). The groove is completely non-existent and everyone is certain it's the harmonica player.
I always go with the attitude that I don't have to play. I actually hope to get to listen to someone who is better than me. If it gets to be 11:00 and I'm not playing and not enjoying listening, it's beddyby time.
Last Edited by Thievin' Heathen on Jan 27, 2018 2:57 PM
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waltertore
3030 posts
Jan 27, 2018
4:02 PM
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There are too many self professed greats today. If they cut their teeth in the real deal blues joints they know how to back a harp, or anything in a blues beat. I tried running a jam about 15 years ago and lasted 1 night. I was appalled at the garbage that said they knew how to play. I have since retired from any kind of jam scene :-)
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Smiling With Hope Pizza-pizza with a social cause
my videos
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Goldbrick
1903 posts
Jan 28, 2018
3:42 AM
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"my whole wretched life swam before my weary eyes, and I realized no matter what you do it's bound to be a waste of time in the end ------”
I know Jack
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CarlA
896 posts
Jan 28, 2018
6:59 AM
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99% of jams just simply suck on EVERY level.
There may be a few good ones out there.
.......Until then I will simply just continue my search for the Loch Ness monster, unicorns, and big foot.
Last Edited by CarlA on Jan 28, 2018 7:01 AM
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ted burke
623 posts
Jan 28, 2018
10:42 AM
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I stopped going to blues jams, by and large, for the same reason I stopped attending open poetry readings.
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www.ted-burke.com
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hvyj
3516 posts
Jan 28, 2018
6:44 PM
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35-40 years ago when I was starting to learn to play there was no assurance that you would get to play if you showed up for a jam. You had to have a certain level of ability or be vouched for just to get called up. And if you didn't cut it you wouldn't be called up the next time. If you did ok, you would get called up the next time--for one tune. If you did really well, you'd get to play on two tunes. You knew you were on the right track if they eventually let you stay up for three tunes. So the pressure was on to try hard to improve every week. Not only to get better at playing your instrument, but also to get better at understanding how to play with other musicians in an ensemble (which are distinct skills). And you had to be ready to fit harp to whatever tune got called-- whether it was blues, rock or R&B.
It was not the warm, fuzzy environment we have today where everyone expects they will get to play at a jam if they show up.
Now, at that time we did not have the instructional resources that are available today. I learned to play by sitting in with bands, going to jams, paying attention to what good musicians were generous enough to share with me, and working hard not to repeat my musical mistakes once I recognized what it was I was doing that was wrong.
Anyway, my advice to a new player is to get out and play in public with other musicians as soon as you think you might be able to handle it. If you pay attention and have the right attitude, you will learn more in 10 minutes on stage than you will learn in 10 hours of playing along with backing tracks in your living room. FWIW
Last Edited by hvyj on Jan 28, 2018 6:48 PM
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jbone
2464 posts
Jan 28, 2018
9:09 PM
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hvyj makes very good points. My first adventures were of the living room variety until my friends gave me the boot for interrupting their rehearsals. This got me out by myself in the country, learning a lot about what a harp can do. Pop radio, lp records, and later cassettes were my jam partners for a time. I was determined but off track.
I hit some jams years later around Dallas but only the smaller "lesser" jams. I was usually the only harp guy so I got away with a lot and seldom learned much during that era. Although I was challenged to begin getting more key harps like Db, Eb etc. The real deal jams in Dallas scared me since I just did not know much at all still. I stayed on the fringes.
There was a period where I didn't get out to many jams at all and instead tried to insinuate myself into bands near me. This failed because I just had no real chops yet. Also people smell desperation. At that time I had no business being in a band, or on a stage, since I didn't know enough and had not paid enough dues, and it showed.
A time came when I was sitting in a treatment center, feeling very small. A fellow patient had a guitar brought in and I asked a friend to drop off my harps. We got to play on Saturday nights a couple of times and it felt good. I was not yet a decent player but I knew enough to get by on simple stuff.
Some few years later I was kind of pushed to get up by a then girlfriend I had shot my mouth off to. That was actually the beginning of my real education into stage etiquette, actually playing in the right places, etc etc. These guys sort of adopted me and cut very little slack until I began to get it and act like a musician.
From there I began getting out to every jam I could. Many times I did not get to play. BUT I met a lot of local musicians, began to apply what I had learned to that point about having good manners, and actually fitting in during my tenure on stage. After some more progress I found myself invited to sit in with bands here and there and then invited into bands. Eventually I co-founded some outfits that played locally. I got to work with everything from a single partner on guitar to 6 or 7 piece bands with keys and brass. All along I was learning and have not stopped learning.
I was sitting at a jam one night and a guy had come out and sat in on drums. After I'd had a spot on stage he came over and asked me a lot about harp and blues. He was a long time drummer and music student and had fallen in love with harp recently. I told him all I could but being an ear player that never had any sort of music courses- and Tony Glover's book in the 70's just didn't sink in with me due to a learning issue- it was precious little. Still, we struck up a friendship and within a couple of months HE was teaching ME some stuff! An amazing guy who I fear is gone now. I've looked for him several times and no luck. Troy Hall from Missouri. He gave me a song which is on one of our cd's now.
Not long after that I was at a jam and a guy got up with a harp and a p.a. mic and blew the place away. Tone, volume, dynamics, resonance, timing, vocals, he was a real harp man and musician. Come to find out he was a one time Hohner poster boy in the 90's. He was not around long and I didn't get any lessons from him but he did give his opinion on my chops, which I took to heart.
I began really trying to be a better player and student. I listened when people talked and listened to a lot of music, more than ever.
I was in a band that the lead player was also a harp player, and he had better harp chops than I did. He was truly a good guy and had mercy on me. He tried to teach me and some of it sunk in!
Not long after that I moved from Texas to Little Rock and began paying dues all over again. I could not STEAL a slot in a band. I did get to sit in with some guys whenever I wanted, no pay but I got to work on my chops and began to improve a lot. Eventually I did work with a couple of local bands across the state. After a time I began partnering with my wife on guitar. This has been my ultimate experience musically. We're going on 14 years married and 13 as a duo. Some rough times early on but she is more than I could ask for in a partner. We started out and I challenged her. Then she challenged me and still does! Now we challenge each other.
We write songs and have 3 cd's out. We toured the US last year and we're in a new city now with hopes and prospects.
None of this would have been possible probably, if I had not been adopted by some people along the way, at jams, and shown some things. Plus I am a stubborn kind of person.
If you really want to excel, listen. Be a student and practice humility even when you want to kick someone's rude ass. Work. Play. Ultimately spread some joy around.
End of soapbox boogie.
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RyanMortos
1666 posts
Jan 29, 2018
6:12 AM
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I wasn't really taking a hit at Walter I just think it would suck to live in that time. I can see how the way that it used to be would have been motivation to get much better before getting on a jam stage. On the other hand, if you mix pros with non pros the pros should be able to lift up and make sound good the non pros or maybe they have something they can still learn. I hate to think of how much I've learned at jams over the last decade not have being learned until I learned it via osmosis and hard practice. No teacher or practicing at home can teach you so much of what is learned up there.
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~Ryan
See My Profile for contact info, etc.
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waltertore
3031 posts
Jan 29, 2018
9:14 AM
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Ryan: I took no offense. Times are what they are and were. Pros had no interest in supporting beginners on a stage because it was so competitive that just didn't happen. Then you made your $ off live gigs as a local pro and live gigs and record sales as a touring pro. There were no seminars, and few festivals in this country compared to today. Europe would pay in 2 months what it took a year to earn in US gigs. Today a pro for the most part is way more dependent on the beginner player because they can't make a living off gigs/record sales anymore. They have to do seminars, create equipment, give lessons, and hark their own cds/merchandise. So the pro today has to be more open to this stuff. Many festivals today require you do a seminar. Back in my youth you had to spend time around them in clubs and then if the relationship went good you were invited into their homes and lives. No money went down to learn. You did things for them like fix their cars, carry gear, act as a bodyguard..... Times change. Today the pros have to have "nice guy" personas or they will not compete. Back then they were what they were and that was the norm.
I think it would suck to be trying to make it in music today. It is near impossible to do it and there are hardly any venues left for non superstars where the audience will pay a decent cover and come for the music. There are so many options today for entertainment and learning has become as easy as clicking a mouse for instruction. I feel lucky to have learned in the flesh in the greats homes, on stage with them, and in clubs 7 nights a week hearing music that is now considered legendary. Today you can have a 100,000 views of your performance on youtube and not have a live gig on the calendar. If you had that many fans back in my day the Rolling Stones would be opening for you!
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walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio.
" life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Smiling With Hope Pizza-pizza with a social cause
my videos
Last Edited by waltertore on Jan 29, 2018 9:28 AM
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jbone
2465 posts
Jan 29, 2018
9:27 AM
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The whole jam idea is fairly new really. I doubt the Chicago guys in the 50's had jams unless they either got invited out or came out to take over a venue. Certainly the Delta guys had the porch, living room, or maybe a feed lot or a juke joint. People who were trying to survive via a guitar or harp were understandably protective of their turf. When we gig we may invite someone out to sit in but rarely is someone we don't know welcome to come in. We have a rep to think about.
Jams have been a great resource and hopefully will continue to be. It always depends on the people you find there.
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