There's not always a turnaround. I know what you mean by "time after time", because the turnaround is fairly common. Technically, if there's a turnaround, that bar should be listed as a I/V.
Why is it listed as a I chord? Maybe in whatever book/ website you're looking, they didn't have the ability to print out a division within the chord. Maybe the person writing it just defaulted to only a I, because the turnaround is not always there. ---------- Marc Graci YouTube Channel
yes I saw it......and I have his lesson from the past still downloaded......but yes the 12 bar blues are broken down into chords per bar......at least thats what Ive seen
The blues is an art form, it can be altered. We first need to start with a un-altered form. A great example of this would be a song we all know and love. Born in Chicago. From there we can begin to alter the form. We can “tag” the 5 chord at the end of the turn around. This is one of the most common alterations. Muddy waters loved to change to the 4 chord in the 2nd bar of a blues tune. A unaltered form is like a road map.
Last Edited by 1847 on Jan 15, 2018 4:55 PM
Starting with the most simple blues progression, the 12th bar is the I chord. Have heard blues played this way - usually in older more traditional blues.
However, doing so gives a lot of bars of I chord - that last 12th bar and the first 4 bars of the form - 5 in a row.
The first permutation of this basic form would be to have the first half of the 12th bar be the I chord and the second half a V chord. This gives a bit of momentum push to the end of the 12th bar forward towards the top of the form, which is missing in the unadulterated 12 bars.
The next permutation could be having the second bar be a IV chord, which breaks up that long string of I chords at the top of the tune as well as suggesting different note choices for the improviser. (Blues players would call this form "quick change").
After this, many other permutations began to pop up, moving towards jazz changes. With each additional chord added to the form, the improviser was given even more note choices.
Musicians found that it took a different kind of approach to improvise creatively when there are far fewer chord changes, so the more the better was the direction for a while, at least for the jazz players, until "Kind of Blue" by Miles Davis turned the tables with modal style approach - learning to be creative over one chord for longer periods of time - sometimes a whole song!
Anyways, since I seem to be in a theory lecture type mood, the reason that Gnarly's Db7 works so well as a substitute in the above example is that it's 3rd and minor 7th degrees are the same notes as the 3rd and minor 7th degree of that G7 chord - the only difference is in the bass note - Db instead of a G. That Ab within the Db7 chord is not a big enough "outside" note to matter that much (it would be considered the b9 of a G7 chord). ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jan 16, 2018 2:02 PM
Iceman nailed it. The substitution that gnarly is talking about is called a tritone substitution the Db is a tritone away from the G. As Iceman said the 3 and b7 are the same notes in the two chords (incidently also a tritone apart from each other), but not exactly, the 3 of the first chord is the b7 of the other and vice versa. This works so nicely because these notes have a strong pull to resolve to the root and now we are keeping them and adding a bass note a half step away from the root which will create further pull to resolve.
Here is a video that shows some basic variations on the 12 bar blues that I found interesting. Sorry, I can't seem to get the html on my phone to embed the video.
Hey you guys gave my secret away-- Harmonica content--on the SSCH-56 Suzuki Compact Chord Harmonica, the button is a tritone--makes throwing in b5 substitutes a breeze.
The 12th bar is very often divided into two parts. The first beat of the bar--the downbeat of 1--is almost always a I chord, NOT a V chord. But the remainder of the bar is almost always a V chord. We all knows this. But when blues harmonica teachers and others who teach blues offer simplified 12-bar chord charts, they almost always render the 12th bar as either a I chord or a V chord.
When I teach basic harmony for blues harmonica, the 12-bar chart that I offer divides the 12th bar into two sections: I chord on the first two beats, V cord on the last two beats. Even that isn't quite right. It's really the downbeat (first beat) on the I chord, the last three beats on the V chord. Even more precisely, it should be ONLY the downbeat of 12 on the I chord, the remaining 3 1/2 bars on the V chord. "Matchbox Blues" might be a good way of teaching this.
But of course, as I note in the video above, there are some blues that dispense with the V chord entirely on bar 12. They just keep cranking away on the I chord.
Kudzu sez: "it should be ONLY the downbeat of 12 on the I chord, the remaining 3 1/2 bars on the V chord".
Careful there, using such absolutes as "should be ONLY".....
I disagree....have found the first 2 beats to be the I chord and the second 2 beats as the V chord more of the norm.
IMO, pushing that V chord forward to the second beat of the measure is an "anticipation of that V chord by 1 beat" from where it usually falls.
Anticipation can be a good thing, as it adds a bit more tension, but is more of the exception rather than the rule, according to my ears anyways... ---------- The Iceman
Iceman: I've been playing the music for more than 40 years and I have a hard time thinking of a traditional or modern blues recording that remains on the I chord for the first two beats of the 12th bar. One the other hand, pretty much every blues that comes quickly to my mind does what I've suggested: nails the I chord on the first beat of the 12th bar, then quickly switches to the V chord. "Matchbox Blues" clearly does this, which is why I posted it. Let's just say that from my perspective, the reference standard has the V chord coming in strongly on the second downbeat of bar 12. That's just how it's usually done by harp players and guitar players. (Very occasionally the V chord comes in on the upbeat of the first beat of bar 12--which is to say a little earlier than the downbeat of 2--but this is rare. I've heard it done, however, and I've done it myself. Dr. John does it on "Mess Around.")
So I'm genuinely intrigued by your claim, which promises to teach me something brand new. Please post two or three videos that do as you suggest. No Miles Davis or James Brown allowed. ---------- Beyond the Crossroads: The Devil and the Blues Tradition
Last Edited by kudzurunner on Jan 17, 2018 7:53 AM
Bar 12 of "The Deb" is a b6 chord--it's in Cm, that's an Ab, which then "ii V"s back to I in Cm. Anyway, I have a question for all you harp players. Can you bend hole 2 down a whole step? And then, can you play hole 3 draw at the same time? On a C, that's a B on draw 3, and draw 2 begins as a G note, but should approach an F.
C'mon, everybody try it--I'm probably going to start a new thread, this is something I want to hear. I will bet cash money that Winslow can do it!
I listened to 12 essential blues progressions again....I keep trying to remind myself that nothing is set in stone and as long as an approach works it does not have to be I IV V chord progression format
Doug S, Also in country "blues" progressions, (I mean country as in the genre, not to be confused with 'country blues' as someone like Muddy Waters would refer to) they will often start on the I chord without the b7 and then add the b7 in bar 4 to create a pull to the IV chord in bar V. In this instance the I7 is actually functioning as a secondary dominant and is the V7 of the IV. Then they will also often go to the V in bar 9 and hang on it for 2 bars instead of the normal V - IV change in the standard blues. Then there usually is no turnaround just two bars of the I to end it.
I I I I7 IV IV I I V7 V7 I I
This is a more diatonic way of playing it and it has a more major feel because they are only playing chords that are in the major key, ie., I, IV, V7, with the exception of the I7 functioning as the V of IV. Technically in a major key the I should not have a b7 and neither should the IV, that is a lot of what gives the blues it's distinctive feel right there. Dominant 7 chords are never really at rest because they contain a tritone.
Edit. Oh and then there is this variation that you hear in more rockabilly type stuff.
I7 I7 I7 I7 IV7 IV7 I7 I7 II7 IV7 I7 I7
Last Edited by SweetBlood on Jan 17, 2018 9:04 AM
That 12th bar isn't always going to be played as a turnaround in some blues tunes and there are so many different ways to approach it and just playing the turnaround is only one of them. There are lots of players in blues (and I'm not talking just harp players but those who play other instruments as well) who build their solos directly from the turnaround into the next verse, like starting the phrase for the next verse on beat #4 on the 12th bar or even sooner than that. Some West Coast players like a Rod Piazza or William Clarke do this quite ab bit. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
My, how our experiences differ. As primarily a keyboard player, I've played in blues bands around Detroit for 30 years or so, and have very rarely, if ever, hit that V chord on the second beat of the 12th measure. Lots of times, since I can actually play AND listen at the same time, I really enjoyed locking in with the bass player. This has re-affirmed my statement based on this experience as well as using my ears.
If you still insist, I'll find examples for you in recordings - however, I don't want it to deteriorate into "these examples prove my point" / "b-b-but those examples prove MY point".
If you want to insist, based on your 40 years as a harmonica player that it is one way, while I suggest based on college education, examination of all forms of music, insanely huge and mostly accurate ears, and my real time experience as mostly a keyboard player and harmonica player as second instrument for 30 years that it is another way - so be it....
At least this conversation seems to be sneaking a little more theory into the heads of folks online here and perhaps allowing a few to start listening for specific things at specific times when they never used to think about them....that's good, isn't it?
EDIT - hey, did a real quick youtube search for a session that I've always enjoyed (and hope you guys will, too) and at around the 8 minute mark, they go into a slow blues. You will plainly hear that that second beat of the 12th measure is still based on the I chord, but includes a bass run that is an anticipation of that V chord which lands fully on the 3rd beat of this measure. This walk up is that slight anticipation to the V chord, suggesting that "it's coming - it's coming - and (landing on the V chord on the 3rd beat) it's HERE.
---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jan 17, 2018 10:22 AM
Joe Leone has frequently complained about EVERY harmonica player using the phrase, "1 b7 5 5" at that final cadence. I always think of him when I do it. If you listen to Born in Chicago, PB goes to the 5 even tho the chords don't change.
The moment one adds a b7 to a major chord as described in your example, it initiates that tritone interval pull between the 3rd and the b7 that wants to resolve, giving the music a little goose of forward momentum.
Also, I do mention this 5 bars in a row of the I chord in my earlier comment above..... ---------- The Iceman
Last Edited by The Iceman on Jan 17, 2018 10:27 AM
well, whatdayaknow! 1847 is right. I made a mistake when I suggested 5 bars in a row. It IS actually 6 bars in a row of the I chord (in the primary example we began talking about)
One of the most common endings that I hear, is bars 11 and 12 as I for half a measure IV for half a measure I on the 1st beat of bar 12 and then a chromatic walk up from IV to V. Sometimes ending with the V+.
So what I am trying to get at here… Most people tend to look at bars 11 and 12 as separate, then moving to the top of the form. And that is one way to look at it. but let’s do this… We can think of bar 11 as the top of the form. We now have a seamless highway of six bars of the one chord. You will see this often at the end of a song. If the band has tagged the 5 chord all during the song The bandleader will hold up 1 finger or say.. stay on the one, this is an ideal place to do that. I think the song don’t go no further does this. Also by looking at it this way sometimes you can come up with a phrase that you may not have thought of before. I agree it is good that we are discussing theory, but we need to remember who the target audience is. We don’t want to scare anyone off. I do appreciate the tritone substitution advice. I like to learn new things myself.
Interesting premise from 1847 regarding how to deal with the 6 bars being discussed....
However, in music, there is not only which chord, but when does it occur at which place during the progression...In other words, the top of the form is not the same as bar 11 because of the placement in time, even though the chord may be exactly the same.
So, your suggestion is interesting, but may actually create thought patterns leading to ideas that don't exactly "feel right" to the ordinary listener.
However, until I hear solos played by folks who truly start to consider bar 11 as the top of the form, I'll reserve final judgement on this one! ---------- The Iceman
I have heard songs where something like what 1847 is saying happens, but not exactly, and I can't think of any examples in the blues. But this has happened to me with the guitar player I do my duo show with. When we first started playing together another friend of ours and him were a duo and I joined them. She did mostly folk music, and there were songs that would hang on the I chord at the end of the progression just like we are talking about. When he would play a solo he would launch straight into his solo when it hit the I chord. This threw me off at first, because he was actually playing the changes, and as soon as he changed chords I would still be on the I chord. I kept telling him he wasn't letting the progression play all the way through and be was starting his solo too early, but he couldn't understand what I was getting at. Really though what he was doing is just cutting out the last two measures after the last vocal phrase and to my surprise when I listened to some of the original recordings they actually did that. A song that we play now that does this is Jeff Heeleys version of Angel Eyes. He does a turnaround sort of thing as the intro that he then uses as a turnaround at the end of the verses except at two points in the song. One is going into the bridge, the other is the last solo. As soon as the vocals end, the solo begins and the turnaround is just skipped over.
Not exactly what 1847 is talking about because it is actually skipping bars 11 and 12 instead of treating them as the top.
Its ok to make the listener uncomfortable, listen to this.
Check out the first guitar solo, if I am nor mistaken it is a Stratocaster “bob margolin” He plays a 12 bar solo, but pay attention… he slips into the one chord for another pass,But after 4 bars, he skips bars 5 6 7 and 8 and then the vocals come in on the 5 chord.
I’ll admit my ears are not as big as yours, you would pick up on this straight away. But I had to listen to this 40 or 50 times to get this. And I’ll tell you the truth, it made me uncomfortable
When you can play a song that someone is willing to listen to…. Over and over and over....It is intriguing.
edited to add... i think he drops bars 11 and 12 like sweetblood says above. i'll have to listen another 10 or 20 times lol.
Last Edited by 1847 on Jan 17, 2018 1:27 PM
Wow, cool RL Burnside Dylan cover! On the "Everything is Broken" clip, the guitar solo finishes with what my band would call "hanging on the I" until the 5 chord comes in, which again, the dudes I play with would probably call "a bridge", and you'll notice that when the harp solo comes in, it goes through 12 bars and then immediately goes to that "bridge" on the 5 chord, instead of the continuation of the 1 chord before, like the guitar did. Probably just a loose jam, with hand signals and whatnot. But definitely an arranged change, maybe they just f'd it up the first time. But sounds so cool. If I was teaching this song to a band where we all have limited knowledge of theory, I would just say: "12 bar blues, with a bridge that goes to the 5 chord". John Lee Hooker has a lot of crazy grooves where he'll suddenly go to a new chord, in no particular pattern, and the band does not always follow him. I've played the song "Train of Love" by Johnny Cash, which uses all these blues changes but not in a classic 12 bar format and it always takes the band a run through or two to get their head wrapped around it.
Last Edited by tomaxe on Jan 17, 2018 2:42 PM
I started this thread......for those who worry about dumb questions..........DONT......there are those that want to help..........and not one has dissed me....it has stimulated lots of helpful info.........
I hope you actually got a satisfactory answer to your question in all of that, groyster! It kind went off the rails, but it sparked a good discussion.
Just to make sure, the last two bars can be played in a lot of different ways, but for someone being introduced to the 12 bar format it is probably easier to start out showing them as either the I chord for two measures or the I and then the V.
It can be played like that, or the way Kudzu was explaining, or the way Iceman was explaining, or many other variations. The two common ways you see it written are just the most basic.
you'll notice that when the harp solo comes in, it goes through 12 bars and then immediately goes to that "bridge" on the 5 chord,
so check this out. you can consider it as bars 9 and 10 of the 5 chord then 2 bars of the 4 chord for bars 11 and 12
but i consider it a time signature change, and count it this way. 9 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 10 and 2 and 3 and 4 and 1 and omitting the last 2 bars 11 and 12
this releases the tension and resolves the uncomfortable feeling from earlier.
That is a great version of that song. Check out Bettye Lavette's version too. Not for any reason pertaining to this thread...just because it is amazing.
I'm just a guy trying to learn how to play like everyone else, seems I am better at studying than practicing. Lol
Apparently I was a little slow on the vampire connection! Many years ago when I first started learning to play guitar, this old guy I worked with always used to ask me to sing Sweet Blood Call by Louisiana Red. He started calling me Sweetblood and still does to this day. He is literally the only person who calls me that, but I like the nickname anyway. Haha ...so no not a vampire.
Last Edited by SweetBlood on Jan 17, 2018 5:45 PM
you asked about the 12 th bar of a blues progression. that is a very profound question, if you ask me.
re-listen to the rl burnside track repeatedly. this is not, new york blues... it is not Detroit blues.... west Memphis or los angeles blues from south central.
it is down home, hill country blues.... while most folks moved to chicago, some folks stayed behind.
this is the real deal serious S%$#.... pay attention!
Last Edited by 1847 on Jan 18, 2018 9:26 PM
Isn`t the basic way of blues 12 bar songs,As the song moves it goes to the 5 chord to set up the motion of 1 chord starting the 12 bar again.Then ,at the end it stops at the 1 chord.....
