Here's a link to an article that I just wrote on Google Docs discussing why learning time is so important for harp players as well as musicians who play other instruments as well. Tho it's aimed at harp players, I have included some non harp player things in it so that it can help you see why time affects everything in the big picture of things altogether.
Time ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
I'd like to read it, but I just don't have the time. :-)
I am interested to read the article. I requested permission and will see what happens. This is something I have been trying to work on lately and I would love to hear your comments on the topic.
I sincerely apologize for forgetting to turn on the share without permission button on it, so as of this minute, you should all be able to get at it. Hopefully, some really serious discussion about this subject will come about because far too often, stuff that concerns real musicianship like communication with a drummer, learning theory and this often gets hardly a sniff and too often long, heated, almost to the point of being silly discussions in many diatonic harp forums concerns gear and solos too much and none of those things really are gonna be improving your overall musicianship one bit. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Thanks for the article. I want to get a good metronome. Do you have a particular one you would recommend? ---------- And I Thank You !! KCz Backwoodz Bluz
There are tons of them and some of them are available as an app for Google Chrome browser users, for example, but whatever you decide to get, just make sure it allows you to set it up so you have a choice of clicking on all 4 beats and to also just click on the 2 and the 4. If you look at the link for the Soundbrenner Wearable Metronome, they also have a link for one you can use on an IPhone or Android smartphone that's pretty impressive and very flexible.
Now the challenge for you will be once the metronome gets shut off, then it's mainting the time properly just by yourself alone and make sure that you either clap your hands, stomp your feet, whatever, to keep the time is always the same from start to finish and if it varies even in the slightest, that still says your time needs work.
From learning time, don't be surprised to hear many different things you've never noticed before because learning time not only affectects your playing skills, but it also will improve your listening skills as well. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Jan 25, 2017 12:12 PM
Thanks for this. What I'm interested in is how bad is bad. Are you talking about big errors where people actually get lost, or glitches where it's not quite perfect?
Bob, This is an excellent article. I would venture to say that anyone that thinks only the drums or bass create beat, or are only responsible for the beat/rhythm fundamentally misunderstands rhythm. Rhythm is extremely for all the band and every instrument in the band. In my own band sometimes the drummer is providing the rhythm. Sometimes its our lead guitar. Sometimes its our bass player. Sometimes its me on harp. It can also be many different combinations of any of those 1,2,3 or 4. One of the greatest compliments I've gotten was at a open jam with a bunch of people I didn't know. Was when drummer came up to me after the jam and said "I really dug the rhythm you were gettin on tonight. It accented my drumming really well and kept me on track"
---------- "The only way to get better is to play a little outside your comfort zone every time you play!"
Bob, thanks for the article. I will be sharing it with my bandmates. On counting off, my experience concurs with what you wrote. A year ago or so I started leading a band (as in players of instruments, not as in "band of brothers" :-) ) of boy scouts. Counting off is harder than it seems, especially in cut time or 6/8 in 2 or 3. Learning to do it has helped my musicianship.
Here is my favorite tutorial on how to use a metronome to improve your time. It is by Victor Wooten. I really like the last section where he advises you set the metronome to click every 5th beat. When you play in 4 this allows you to check a different beat every measure to make sure you are holding time, but with the beats spaced far enough to wean you off the metronome.
Victor uses a terminology I am not sure he explains in the video. He counts 1 e and a 2 e and a 3 e and a 4 e and a. A point in time half way between the 1 beat and the two beat is referred to as the and of 1. Half way between the and of 1 and 1 is the e of one, etc.. Most of you probably know this, but I added it just in case.
Nicely written. Time is everything. Listening, identifying and reacting when people jump time is also essential. It's also important to jump to the same place as the other players, then it doesn't sound wrong.
I get it, time is important, and some people here have great time. Can we have a bit more discussion about what it means in practice and how to improve it? I still want to know are we talking about subtle or gross things.
I liked Victor Wooten's video actually. Setting the metronome to ping on every beat, then slowing it to twice then once per bar seems a good idea. Although setting the metronome to ping on the 1e or the 3a etc. seems like a prescription for people who already have pretty good time.
He mentions in passing a particular thing to practice: not speeding up during fills. I think the tendency is to rush faster-note passages in general.
But also speeding up when playing louder?
And what about consciously varying time to good effect? In other genres, changing the tempo is part of expression and phrasing.
Given it's difficult to play perfectly, is it better to err on one side or another? If you play your fills/runs a little slow does that come across better than a little fast?
More info please. Any examples? As usual, examples of perfection aren't much help. We need examples of 'not so good' to see what you mean.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 26, 2017 2:42 AM
Setting a metronome, for example, the click on the 2 and the 4 after practicing with it on all 4 beats allows you to clearly hear yourself tapping your feet and make sure that each tap is even from beginning to end and then finally turning it off to practice without it becomes more of a test and that now requires you to pay more close attention to detail and if each foot tap is dead even or close to it, then the time is right but if it ain't happening, your time still needs a lot of work.
Speeding up when playing louder concerns dynamics and when I spent a year hosting an open jam, whenever jammers got into dynamics, it was VERY common to hear the time slow down when the volume got brought down and the tempo speeding up when they played louder. If your time is right, under ZERO CIRCUMSTANCES, this should not EVER happen, but when you do hear it, that says the time of those musicians totally sucks. Listen to many great recordings, especially the live stuff for dynamics and ignore the soloing and pay attention to the groove and you'll quickly hear what I mean.
Fast playing is NOT the same as screwing up the time, which is a totally different animal altogether.
Thanks, everyone for enjoying it and this could've been much longer and I may further update and add to it and I'll let you know when I do.
@STME58 -- Those points are essentially using different terminology to help define degrees of playing ahead or behind the beat, sort of like the cracks in the time and I understand exactly what he's talking about and so groove ain't just about fast,slow, medium a lot of that stuff involves paying attention to things that aren't smacking you in the face kind of obvious, but very subtle things that you have to pay EXTREMELY close attention to or you're gonna miss it in a nanosecond. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Jan 26, 2017 10:34 AM
One thing that I've noticed is that even the most successful players spend time working on their time. Very few people want to play with people who unintentionally speed up, slow down or lose their place.
@Joe L -- Your first sentence mirrors my experience as well with many pros over the years and this ain't something you learn overnight and the most anal of all musicians, classical musicians, they CONSTANTLY practice these things all the time.
Anybody who tells you they can recognize good time and yet haven't bothered to get their own time together is telling you an outright blatant lie. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@Gap, I don't have any examples of bad rhythm playing on hand but I will share with the group what I have done and continue to do to improve my timing. Some of it may seem very tedious and boring but it has payed huge dividends for me as I've progressed as a musician. I tend to look at it as a pyramid. I have to have a tremendous base before I can build the next level.
1. I slow down my metronome to the 55bpm tempo.(painfully slow) Then I play the Pentatonic scale in minor then major in both 2nd and 3rd position. Next I do different patterns of the scale always hitting on the beat and always making sure I am in tune and my notes are very clean. 2. Keeping this same bpm 55. I then start progressing so I am playing the scales with different patterns. I then increase the speed that I am playing still on 55bpm but playing the down beat and the up beat on the &. 1&2&3&4&. or 8th notes. Next I got to 16th notes. 1e&a,2e&a, 3e&a, 4e&a. (at 55bpm it isn't too hard to hit 8th or 16th notes.) I have also split the gaps between the down beat into 3 notes I.E. triplets. As I've gotten better I've increased the bpm on the metronome. Finally I've gotten to where I can push and pull the beat. Meaning I come in a little early or a little late on purpose to add expression. (Note) this exercise can take as little as 15min per day and sometimes is very boring. However, It works. 3. I practice with a band regularly (once per week) and focus on the drummer and the bass player. If your band mates are honest they will tell you when you are off and you'll hear it. Also, we record every session so I can hear when I'm off. Nothing humbles you faster and gets you to practice more when you hear your own mistakes and you can tell it's dragging down the sound of the band. It can be painful! Recording also allows you to "practice" with your band when your not "with your band" 4. The following clip start to finish is incredible I would encourage all to watch it although it's long. 40+ mins. The best ADVANCED and I mean ADVANCED exercise I've ever heard on any instrument comes at around 39 mins. He is talking about feeling the & of the 1. They keep coming in off time. So he makes them do an exercise where you have 8 notes .1&2&3&4& and you play them once and drop one of the notes as you go through until you get to the & of the 4 and bring all the notes back 1 by 1. Your supposed to do this without counting. kind of like the BINGO song. It seems this is a requirement for all horn players to get down. As I somewhat feel that we can be horn players I felt I should be able to do this as well. So far I can only get to the & of the 3 before I get lost. It is incredibly difficult and frustrating but it has pushed me to be better. If I ever get it down maybe I'll post a video. I'd love to know if anyone else has heard or tried this exercise. Does anyone else practice in this way or a way similar?
@Gap, I take back the no example of bad rhythm on video thing. My example video has examples of being off beat and time. Barry helps them correct it. Anyway. I maybe crazy and some of you may think this is too extreme or totally unnecessary but it's the approach I've taken and has worked well for me. Good luck and keep harpin
---------- "The only way to get better is to play a little outside your comfort zone every time you play!"
Last Edited by FBInsMan on Jan 26, 2017 11:07 AM
Below are a few links that use dynamics and if you ignore the soloing and listen to the band and most of all, THE GROOVE, you'll notice no matter what the dynamics are, the time doesn't flinch one bit no matter how loud or soft things are.
This is Albert King's Blues Power from his LP Live Wire/Blues Power and you'll notice this is a slow blues and everything grooves because NO ONE is messing up the time no matter what (if you did, he'd fire your butt in a hurry):
Now this is BB King Live At The Regal, and again, if you ignore the soloing and pay attention to the groove, the time NEVER fluctuates even when using dynamics.
If you paid attention closely, you'll see the time NEVER gets messed up and is consistent from beginning to end, even with dynamics. These are things you often will NOT hear in 85% of open jams anywhere: ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@FBInsMan -- That tempo is super super slow and tempos that slow are much harder than you think to play in. I remember seeing an interview of jazzman Dizzy Gillespie some years back and he mentioned that when he sat in with Ray Charles, they did the tune Drown In My Own Tears, which was not only that painfully slow, but on top of that, as far behind the beat as possible, making that groove MUCH more difficult to play, even for an accomplished pro like him. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@BBQBob. Yea I had indications that it was hard. When I first started I had trouble hitting the &'s in the right spot. It made me focus on hitting the beat and in tune. Was very difficult. It's much easier for me now. I just initially referring to the fact that is is easier to play 16th notes at 55bpm than it is to at 104bpm. :)
---------- "The only way to get better is to play a little outside your comfort zone every time you play!"
One thing I must say to those whose only live musical experiences are in open jams is that those tend to be the absolute WORST places to learn and practice these things because, to be brutally honest about it, a huge percentage of other jammers, including the drummers and bass players, their time is often horrible and it makes it damned near impossible to improve your time skills because those musicians will basically, even though they don't mean to, do nothing but drag you down and you eoither wind up stagnating or worse, regressing just for learning time alone.
In the so called pro jam/special invite jam/snob jams, the overall level of musicianship is easily 80% higher and you'll find that the majority of the jammers tend to have good time and their musicianship is often at or near pro level and even if you don't get to play in them right away, if you keep a hurt ego out of the way and learn to REALLY listen to the music, and what I mean by that is don't be like a jam hack and just pay attention to the soloing only, but listening to EVERY MINUTE DETAIL of what's happening, you'll begin to notice a lot more and learning time will open your eyes and ears a lot because you're now listening to things in far greater detail like the way musicians at a pro or near pro level, recording engineers and record producers are listening to mujsic.
Getting the time straight at the extreme ends of the metronome is no easy thing to do and like anything else in life, lots of practice has to be done and NO musician that was ever born automatically had good time to begin with and they all had to work like hell on it to get that right.
One thing I should tell you is that whenever I've had to deal with musicians, if they've got problems with their time, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES do you EVER allow them to get drunk or high because that only makes things considerably WORSE.
Two harp players I admire greatly, both Little Walter and Big Walter Horton, when they got too drunk or too high, their time definitely did suffer. For Little Walter, if you listen very closely to the session that produced Just Your Fool and Shake Dancer, he does mess the time up, but because the backing band behind him in the studio was familiar working with the old country bluesmen where time could easily get messed up and, as Muddy Waters once put whenever he worked with someone with those roots like a Lightnin' Hopkins or John Lee Hooker, where chord changes could come unexpectedly, to quote Muddy, "if he don't change, I don't change>" Because the backing band was keenly aware of this, they changed along with LW and hid it well enough that only someone who really had good time and paid close attention to detail would easily pick it up.
As much as I learned from seeing and hanging out with Big Walter, there were times he was on the bandstand when he was clearly too drunk to play and because of it, at times his playing suffered because his time would get messed up and sometimes he'd jump the time or changes as well. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Thanks FBInsMan! This is what we need, smart ways to practice. Normally I find I have to practice things that are a bit too difficult in order to make the simpler things feel comfortable. Lots of ideas in that vid.
Here's a question for you... When I started on drums all the learning material started with straight rhythms, with swung rhythms and compound time (6/8, 12/8) introduced later as 'special and a bit difficult'. But I found that my swung and triplet time came quite easily and naturally (nothing fancy, mind), whereas my straight grooves need lots of work e.g. the fills drifting out of time if I'm not vigilant.
Any thoughts doctor? Am I hard-wired for swing, or I wonder does the ambiguity in the swung groove mask an underlying weakness?
BTW in drum exercises there seem to be a lot of the kind of exercise in your vid - accenting unusual beats, cycling them around: 1, 1e, 1and, 1a, 2, 2e...
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 27, 2017 2:35 AM
@MindTheGap -- From the way you write in your post, it actually sounds like that you may have been unaware of a tendency to try to push the groove too much or at times lay back too much for certain grooves, and that's often a huge challenge for any musician regardless of what instrument to play. Part of getting through it takes heavy concentrated listening to every minute detail, basically being totally anal about everything.
Accenting the odd beats are often referred to as off time stuff and those can be a problem to get right because the tiniest screw up can destroy a groove in a hurry.
Some straight grooves don't allow for space and some do, and that's true for swing, jazz and blues stuff as well and sometimes navigating that can be a real bitch. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Bob, I enjoy and learn many important things from your posts and now this article. But, I must say, that I had trouble getting through the article because of the way it was written. Have you considered getting someone to look it over and correct some or all of the grammatical errors? I think your points would be understood more clearly if they were presented in a more authoritative and clear writing style.
Just as you've stated many times how important Time is when playing music, I think that using proper English and grammar is important in writing about music, or anything else.
An editor could tighten up the article in less than an hour's time.
Last Edited by Minor Blues on Jan 27, 2017 8:54 AM
Bob - yes, probably that's true. I believe I can tell when it's not right, but I'm not always clear on which way to correct it.
If you know what I mean - similar to if you can hear two notes are slightly off pitch and not being sure which one is sharp and which is flat. Now everyone uses an electronic guitar tuner it's not a problem, but I remember trying to tune a guitar the old way in 'the heat of battle' and sometimes getting in a state of bleeeah - going round in circles, the guitar getting sharper and sharper...
That said, I've not found anyone else who can tell me definitively either on a particular piece. They seem to work by feel too, so I've got to work it out myself. To answer my own question, I feel that being a bit late sounds better than being a bit early, within limits.
And then it's one thing understanding what's wrong, and another having the skill to put it right.
I know drum machines/software allow you to add swing. I wonder if there's a metronome that let's you advance/retard the backbeat from TDC? (That's for those of you who used to tune your engines before all this electronics).
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 27, 2017 9:24 AM
MinorBlues - I understand what you mean. But it's about context and I had no trouble reading and understanding the article. Also, that is Bob's style and 'correcting' it would dilute it IMO.
I'm constrained by my upbringing and background to attempt to write in a correct style, while being aware that's it's bland compared to the punchy prose that other people here deploy.
You get me bruv? See, it just doesn't work.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 27, 2017 9:20 AM
MindTheGap - I think you've missed the point completely. We can all LEARN to do things better. Saying you're constrained by upbringing and background to even attempt something sounds like an excuse to be sloppy. IMO
EDIT Actually, I expect you've got a good point and I know lots of people feel very strongly about bad grammar. I don't myself, but I'm the minority. And I want to discuss time here.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 27, 2017 9:44 AM
@MindTheGap -- I've been looking around to find drum machines and metronomes that can be programmed to be able to do what you're talking about, basically adjusting it to click behind or ahead of the beat in varying degrees, but have yet to find one and I'd be the very to post anything on that if something like that develops.
@Minor Blues -- Very few people talk "grammatically correct," and many pro musicians I've met in my lifetime speak much like I do, but in even rougher and much more brutally honest ways and if I tried to "clean it up" the way you're describing it, I'm not being true to myself and it comes off being far too sugar coated and people who are brutally honest NEVER sugar coat anything and whenever I hear someone speak and this is their nature and suddenly they write anything that's "cleaned up," I know it's not them at all and I question their credibility. Proper English or spelling in one country/region is often different in another.
Anyway, this is, in many ways, a better discussion that I hoped it would be because anytime someone posts anything about time or anything that's not solo or gear related and concerns REAL musicianship, it often gets very few responses or pretty much ignored, so this is healthy and I want it to keep coming because everyone in the end truly learns something. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Playing with others who have bad time is a real chore.
Per MindtheGap: "He mentions in passing a particular thing to practice: not speeding up during fills. I think the tendency is to rush faster-note passages in general.
But also speeding up when playing louder?
And what about consciously varying time to good effect? In other genres, changing the tempo is part of expression and phrasing."
Changing tempo is part of the arrangement and not usually not something you do spontaneously. There are certain liberties that can be taken during a solo, but only if the rest of the band knows what to do.
EXAMPLE: On a fast tempo number if you take a solo and want to play with drive to make people want to get up and dance, you play aggressively and place your notes on the front edge of the beat, "pushing" the beat. But this only works if the drummer holds steady to give you something to push against. If the drummer gets excited and speeds up and goes with you when you push, it spoils the effect and when you end the solo and come back to the top of the next verse and stop pushing the beat there is a real danger of losing "one" if the drummer is not careful. Or, if you have a really bad drummer and you take a long hard driving solo he may start listening to you for "one." If the drummer starts doing that, you can't break out of the meter and stretch out over the top as you solo because the drummer will go with you, destroying the groove and completely losing "one" to such an extent that there's no coming back.
One of the things that makes it such a pain in the ass to to play with musicians who have bad time is you have to be careful not to do anything when you solo that causes a worse train wreck than the one already in progress. More work than fun, for sure.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jan 27, 2017 11:46 AM
I never suggested anything about how you talk. I'm talking about how you write. Big, big difference. I agree with you about how a person speaks. I'm merely trying to say that your writing style is confusing and grammatically awkward. I have no idea how you speak, and I would not suggest you or anyone else change your speech. As you've mentioned, people are not born with good time, or perfect pitch, or even musical ability...these are things we learn by working on them. Writing is the same. Nobody is born a good writer, they learn.
Thanks for being cool about this, and welcoming a discussion.
Thanks Bob. After reading this I tried cooking something up in Audacity - creating a click track with a delayed beat on 2 and 4. Not sure it was much help on its own. It became clear that it's a subtle thing - at least for this kind of music. It's quite a short delay/advance before it starts sounding odd rather than groovy.
There are plenty of examples of playing behind/on/ahead of the beat around, but many of them are for swing jazz where it can be quite large (hence easier to hear) or even hip hop where there are some very loping beats indeed.
Maybe instead it is a case of listing and copying lots of different actual records, to develop the feel. Personally I'd rather be able to analyse it.
hvyj - that's useful into too. I find it a bit uncomfortable to accompany a soloist or singer constantly pushing the beat forward. But I will rethink, maybe it's a good thing and it's best, musically, to let them do it and stand firm.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jan 28, 2017 2:50 AM
@MindTheGap -- Nothing personal taken here, so no problem!!!
@hvyj -- Your post I am 100% in total agreement with you. I remember doing a freelance gig that had a bass player I knew for quite some time and was a helluva bass player, but the drummer on the gig, the nicest thing I could say about him was that he was absolutely God Awful!!! His time sucked so bad that I'd rather gig with an amplified metronome or a drum machine before I'd gig with him and at the end of the night, me and the bass player were both physically and mentally exhausted because the drummer's time sucked so bad, there was no groove to work with and at one point I was pissed off enough to damned near want to punch his lights out. If this fool did this to Albert King, who started out as a drummer (and was a really good one), his ass would've been fired right then and there because I witnessed him firing the drummer in the middle of the 2nd tune of the night because the drummer screwed up the time.
Pushing the beat is very common in rock bands but it can lead to speeding up if not careful and the way white musicians have a tendency to do things from experience, which is follow the guitar no matter what, I've seen tempo speed ups quite often.
@MindTheGap -- Not surprised at that because it's the same with drum machines and metronomes and on another forum, when I mentioned this couldn't be done on drum machines, one poster said it could and I challenged him to find one and present the proof in the pudding, and this was about 10 years ago and that question still remains unanswered from him. Things that are subtle tend to be the most difficult to learn and often times it's because it's not like a flashy solo where it's so obvious that it's hitting you upside the head with a baseball bat whereas with subtle, you gotta play REALLY close attention to detail and often times that's not the way many people pay attention to anything whether it's a contract, a piece of music, writing, etc.. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Last Edited by barbequebob on Jan 28, 2017 9:39 AM
@MindTheGap: it is important to distinguish between the GROOVE and what a lead instrument is doing independently (for lack of a better word). If the whole band is playing a laid back behind the beat groove you shouldn't stand firm--you should adjust and play in the pocket created by the ensemble. But if a lead instrument uses a different note placement relative to the beat for expression or effect that's when the rest of the ensemble should stand firm. This, of course is a generalization.
One needs to be disciplined about such things. For example, when the soloist starts playing with drive and pushing the beat to make people want to get up and dance, if he's any good at that you and the rest of the musicians in the band will also feel and be affected by the emotion the soloist is creating. So the natural tendency is to speed up, which would be a bad move. Now it may be ok to play HARDER such a situation, but not FASTER.
In a different context Iceman talks about how hard it is for inexperienced players to just stand still and not play ( instead of overplaying) when the band is rocking hard. Same difference--you must be able to resist getting carried away with excitement and allowing it to affect your tempo.
IMHO, it's hard to develop these interactive skills from practicing with backup tracks. You need to play live with other musicians who know what they are doing. Adam recently started a thread about why harp players get no respect. Well, most harp players I encounter (even those that have a high level of technical skill on the instrument and have a decent knowledge of music) don't have a good understanding of how to play effectively with other musicians and it shows, which gets on the nerves of experienced performers. I think part of the problem for us is that most of the harmonica recordings we listen to are played by a harmonica centric ensemble where the band is there to back up the harmonica player who is the star of the show. Recordings of this kind don't teach us how to function effectively in a musical environment where the harmonica is just another instrument in the band. There are regularly posts on MBH replete with complaints about the band not playing how we want them to or what we want them to. IMHO, collectively we would be better off focusing on how we can more effectively adapt to what a band is doing instead of how we can get the band to adapt to us. FWIW.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jan 28, 2017 12:15 PM
HvyJ's post is totally spot on and basically staying in the pocket can be also described as working WITH the groove rather than pushing or much worse, FIGHTING the groove, and that is often what I see happening in many open jams. It also comes down learning to become much more musically DISCIPLINED rather than the badly disorganized free for all approach of many jessions, especially when they may often be very poorly skilled musicians.
Working with other musicians is important and that means for harp players, it's a helluva lot more than just playing licks any way you damned well please, which is 100% total clueless jam hack BS that DESERVES to get dissed.
A HUGE part of the problem is that too many harp players far too often listen ONLY to harp players and to make matters worse, ONLY to solos and little else beyond that, and along with lousy time and lack of knowledge of basic music theory, it's no wondr why harmonica players are stereotyped as lousy musicians because they're being bone headed by playing right into the negative stereotypes about them and they've got no one else to blame for this except themselves, and most non pro players won't have the guts to admit it.
I've made it a point to listen to more than just harmonica players because listening to other instruments for more than just solos to use as a textbook or a sense of musical grammar to help me in a wider variety of playing situations. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Bob - Appreciated your article - well thought out and on point.
About your posts:
If you can't count the band in and it's your song why should the drummer or bass player know what's in your head or what version of the song you're doing?
Metronome - a good way to learn and practice. Drummers who aren't used to them don't necessarily think in terms of "beats per minute" so your "medium tempo shuffle" at 95 BPM may turn into a runaway train if drummer or bassist thinks 124 BPM is medium tempo.
The Albert & B.B albums. I was with Albert when the album was recorded at Fillmore. Not such a good band, especially the keyboard player who was the band leader. Albert sent me reel-to-reel tapes once it was mastered. I called to tell him how great it sounded (not how I'd experienced the sets) and he told me Stax redid the band parts using Booker T & the MG's. BB's? When you had jazz drummer Sonny Freeman running the band it was always a tight ship and good musicians (unlike the latter years).
Timing: There was a reason that Mr. Robert Lockwood Jr. ran the bands on sessions for Little Walter & Sonny Boy (and BB's band 1948-49). Timing made the difference. ---------- BnT
@BnT -- Good points you make here. I met Lockwood back in the 70's and asked him how liked playing behind Little Walter and he told me without hesitation the he actually HATED playing behind harp players with the exception of SBII, and his brutally honest word for word answer was "Their time sucks!!!!"
Far too often, that IS the truth.If you're gonna lead a band, even if it's a single tune on jam, you have to get your time together and everything else together as well and gear ain't gonna hide that one bit and because many harp players are too hard headed to bother to learn it, they;re the same people who wonder why they get dissed all the damn time and they'e the ones too hard headed to learn. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Well, there's not a consistent level of musicianship on a lot of the older blues recordings by well known blues artists. Some of the drummers are not very good and just drag which is not the equivalent of playing a behind the beat groove. Some of us misconstrue that sort of thing as a legitimate style (instead of incompetence) and try to imitate it. Then we put up posts whining and complaining about how hard it is to get a band to play the right style for us to play what we're trying to imitate. And many of the original artists probably never played most of this stuff way twice anyway.
Last Edited by hvyj on Feb 03, 2017 11:56 AM
Bob, would you recommend learning your time as soon as you start learning your instrument. Or would you recommend learning your instrument, to the point where you don't have to think to much about what your doing. As that could be some peoples problems, they don't know their instrument well enough to be able to focus on counting time, their to focused on whether they are playing the right notes, or thinking about their bends, anyways I think you know what I mean.
hvyj - re older blues recordings, that's a spanner in the works then, in terms of learning what's right and wrong.
I have a book 'The Commandments of Early Rhythm and Blues Drumming' (by the drummer Zoro & Daniel Glass) which at least has a discography of what they consider to be good examples.
I'm still keen to hear examples of what people think are bad (on record). I assume that Aces track is an example of good?
Are we talking glitches, actually errors, or subtle things. There's that bit in the 2nd verse of Juke isn't there. I expect that's been discussed to death, but is that considered to be an error neatly glossed over, or just how things were i.e. flexible time, or a good thing i.e. adding interest through complexity?
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 04, 2017 3:26 AM
@1847 -- When LW was sober, he had good time, but once he got too drunk or too high, different story. In the session that produced Just Your Fool/Shake Dancer, he does mess the time up but the backing band is so familiar with many older country blues artists where, as Muddy Waters once put it, "They changed whenever they felt like it and if they don't change, I don't change." Because of that experience, it allowed them to easily hide LW's screw ups on that session and that was a lesson I took to heart whenever I worked with someone along the lines of somebody like a John Lee Hooker or Lightnin' Hopkins. As much as I learned from BW, he also had those very same problems as well when he got too drunk.
@Bass410Man -- I didn't learn time right away and getting more familiar with the instrument first helps out tremendously before anything else and too many players have a tendency to want to hit the stage before they've learned where everything is on their instruments, let alone their time and 95% of players should NEVER be on the bandstand in their first two or three years into the instrument because 95% of them don't really know where every single note and scale is on their instrument and time is another issue onto itself. Within the 2nd or 3rd year of playing, learning theory and time is important and then you're gonna be much better equipped to be on a real bandstand, but unfortunatly, I had to learn the hard way and get my head handed to me many times over before I finally got the message.
@Mind The Gap -- The reason the alternate take of Juke never got issued in the first place was the very fact that the entire band sped up, especially the drummer and there are tons of alternate takes that never get released for a number of different reasons, like missing cues, and of course, among other things, time screw ups. Richard Innes once told me he had a bootleg tape of a session drummer Fred Below was on when he was so hammered, he messed up the time, and that beings me to something I would also tell other musicians that if you're dealing with a musician with time that can be really shaky and at times, god awful, allowing them to get drunk or high will only make matters CONSIDERABLY worse and I've personally seen this happen and have dealt with that personally far more often than I'd care to admit. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
@MindTheGap - It's important to think about Juke as what it really was - a little signature song that Muddy and his band used to open and/or close sets. It probably varied widely from night to night, like the two takes.
So Muddy cut it as part of one of his sessions. They were on the road in Louisiana when they first heard "Juke by Little Walter & his Night Cats" on the radio. Muddy called the Chess brothers to find out what was going on. The Chess brothers had made a decision to use their preferred take (however imperfect) and release it. Neither Muddy nor anyone else in the band was consulted. And there was no "Little Walter & his Night Cats".
So they told Muddy to get Walter back to Chicago. When he got back they took an existing band - Little Junior Wells and The Aces - Junior left them and went to join Muddy's band on the road. The Aces (Louis & Dave Myers and Freddy Below) soon went on the road with Walter to support the single.
That's the story Muddy told me (later confirmed by Jimmy Rodgers and Luther Tucker).
The Chess brothers were certainly exacting in what they demanded. If Juke had been intended as a first single by a new artist I expect they would have done a few more takes to get a perfect version. ---------- BnT
Thanks for that BnT, that's excellent background, the haphazard birth of a classic. Interesting how people copy it note for note as if it had been carefully written out like a symphony. I had read before about it being an intro tune, and not a fixed thing.
In terms of this thread, it's interesting to reflect then how a song doesn't have to be 'error free' in order to be good or even great.
I've always had this view which I preach to my own little amateur band: that while we all care deeply about getting our bits 'right', the audience don't usually notice mistakes or if they do, they don't care very much. They care about the basic groove and the feel. I could be wrong, but that's how I feel about it myself when I'm listening to music.
When I listen to our rehearsal recordings, and I'm anticipating a glitch coming up, at first I think ouch! But when I listen back to old ones, I can still hear them but they just don't seem as important as other elements.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Feb 06, 2017 2:55 AM
