Ed Hopwood
12 posts
Oct 07, 2016
1:41 AM
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Hi folks, I've been playing harp for a fair while now through PA systems at gigs ( fine if you have a good listening engineer) and I've got a roland mobilecube for busking but I'm after an Amp to use at smaller venues. I realise there's quite a few Amps out there, hence asking here!
It would ideally be something a bit multi-purpose as I sing and play percussion too. I play a fair bit of Blues but I often don't want an overdriven sound. I also play country, Bluegrass & Old-Time. The Amp would ideally be not to big and heavy( budget £250.00?)
I'd also be interested if anyone has any vintage looking mic recommendations? In currently just using a dynamic mic for everything; I realise some people prefer using a separate mic for the harp on the rack and this is something I may explore in the future but for now I'm just after one mic( I may even continue with the sm58 but would consider others)
Thanks very much!
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Popculture Chameleon
177 posts
Oct 07, 2016
4:47 AM
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honkin tom has the super chump 5 watt amp- not sure if it would be enough for what you want but its an amp for both studio and home use according to the website. its about 285 you can check out a few you tube reviews to see if its what you need- pignose also has a couple of amps that you could look into. but if you are looking for venues like a church for instance your better off I think getting something like a blues jr amp most amps that do what you are wanting and describing can run anywhere from 300- 500 that is my experience at least
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Ed Hopwood
13 posts
Oct 08, 2016
12:55 AM
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Thanks! I could prob increase the budget a little if that's what's required to get what I need.
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GamblersHand
623 posts
Oct 08, 2016
1:46 AM
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I have a VHT Special 6, which is a good small tube amp for the price
I'm also in the UK, and bought from Thomann https://www.thomann.de/gb/vht_avsp16_special_6_valve.htm?glp=1&gclid=CN_M1dznys8CFc4V0wodcj0HkA
Maybe it's more for traditional amplified playing so won't be versatile enough? I use it with a bullet microphone
I'm guessing you're the same Ed from London? I know Mark Harrison and Will Greener fairly well from when they used to run the Green Note acoustic blues sessions.
Last Edited by GamblersHand on Oct 08, 2016 1:47 AM
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MindTheGap
1796 posts
Oct 08, 2016
1:47 AM
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I'd have thought something like a Fender Champion 40 would be much more practical and versatile for your purpose than a 5W tube amp. It's light, loud, within your budget and has a wide range of sounds available. Plus some on-board effects like reverb that may be useful.
I know for some that only tubes will do to get a particular sound. But otherwise, the Champion 40 is a practical tool.
As for a 'vintage-looking, multi-purpose mic' I fancy one of those Shure 533A Sphere-O-Dyne (hi impedance). Which was intended as general purpose/vocal mic but famous people used for playing harp into too.
There's supposed to be a cheaper alternative that looks/sounds similar in the 'Realistic Highball-2'. Again, you need the Hi-Z (or Dual-Z) variants. Sadly, all the ones I've seen in the UK have been the more common Lo-Z ones.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 08, 2016 2:22 AM
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bluethird
25 posts
Oct 08, 2016
3:52 AM
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Heads up, this is the same basic model as the Super Chump, for a lot less money (until the pound tanks even further).
http://www.harpelite.com/catalog/it/nuovi/318-stealton-classic-5-amplificatore-valvolare.html
You might want to upgrade the speaker and valves, but it's a basic champ configuration amp. Not saying it's the best option, even for the price, but if you want handwired and tubes on a budget, it could work for you.
The main problem with any tube amp is the amount of overdrive you get is coupled to the volume of the amp, and this may or may not be a problem for you.
Cheers!
Looking again at your original post, you want some versatility, so a modelling amp might be better.
Last Edited by bluethird on Oct 08, 2016 3:54 AM
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MindTheGap
1797 posts
Oct 08, 2016
5:50 AM
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That's interesting. I've tried allsorts and I know the 5W amp sound is something everyone should experience. But I never found it any practical use: too loud for practice, too quiet (unaided) with a band. With the output volume and gain/breakup being linked, it's never quite right in a real situation. Maybe ok when the band are playing quietly, but when they gradually get more excited and loud there's nowhere to go.
I expect they are great for playing solo or recording. They always sound lovely in the YT demos.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 08, 2016 5:51 AM
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bluethird
26 posts
Oct 08, 2016
6:10 AM
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Much too loud for practising at home, unless you have deaf neighbours! I've fitted an L-Pad attenuator to mine which works like an overall volume control, but you do lose some bottom end with it.
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Thievin' Heathen
844 posts
Oct 08, 2016
8:56 AM
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I wonder, is the UK awash in old Peaveys like we are here in The States? A little bit heavy. With the exception of the Stereo Chorus, I've found everything they made last century to be suitable harp amps.
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MindTheGap
1798 posts
Oct 08, 2016
10:19 AM
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I've read that before, about the older Peaveys, the non-modelling ones. Someone was recommending the Backstage 50 (or 30?) as being good for a harp sound. I've seen some about in 2nd hand equipment shops. There's some on ebay I see, but I'm not in touch with the models. Most look like the newer modelling types.
The perception of the old ones is of a solid workhorse, I think. But they are so physically heavy for the output, compared to those equivalent new Fender modelling amps.
bluethird - yes indeed. I fitted an L-pad to mine too, and it does make it more flexible. So I *can* use it at home at low output, but it's not the same experience. It also helped when playing out, as I would set the attenuator to a level to ensure no feedback in each situation, and line-out or mic-out to the PA. But once I was doing that, I might as well go straight to the PA via a pedal. The sound wasn't quite as nice, but in the mix of a band it made no odds, musically.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 08, 2016 10:25 AM
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SuperBee
4173 posts
Oct 08, 2016
3:26 PM
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5 watt tube amps...I can practice at home with one, when it's only the neighbors to consider. When there are other occupants though, it's a no no. For recording they are good. I've even taken to jams and put through bigger cabs but I personally think the charm is lost when max volume is required. I know people make much of the jam-friendliness of the lined-out Memphis Mini (of which I believe the super chump is another variant from same factory), but you still need to be able to hear on stage and putting the harp in the monitor seems like just asking for the wrong kind of feedback. I'd rather a bigger amp. I've seen people say similiar about 10-20 watt range; no good for anything. Here though I do regularly use amps in the range at band practice and in jamming. Marginal in gigs though where the adrenaline is flowing and trying to rein it in is like asking people to stop dancing for a moment and think about how they are going to pay the phone bill.
The peavey classic 30 is a pig of a thing to work on but I know several harp players who use them and get a good range of acceptable sounds. There is sometimes a classic 30 at a jam I participate in. It is noticeably louder than my old Ampeg Jet (12") and Princeton Reverb (10"). It's been on my bench for service recently (hence comment above) and has been fitted with cannibis Rex speaker. Owner isn't sure the speaker made much difference. Amp is about 20 years old and seems to be holding up ok. All tube amps need maintenance. This one had dirty contacts in tube sockets which prevented the filaments from lighting up.
There are a lot of 5 watt amps on the market but I agree if I wanted an amp for gigs I wouldn't be looking in that range. Personally I also wouldn't buy a new amp but there are a range of views about that
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shakeylee
577 posts
Oct 08, 2016
5:56 PM
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Op, where do you live? I might be able to think of something. ---------- www.shakeylee.com
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shakeylee
578 posts
Oct 08, 2016
5:56 PM
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Op, where do you live? I might be able to think of something. ---------- www.shakeylee.com
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Goldbrick
1643 posts
Oct 08, 2016
6:23 PM
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I would think UK since his budget is in pounds
Solid state Princeton 65 chorus is a decent amp and should be cheap enuff - , They run about $150 used in the US and there are lots of 'em I would think not hard to find in the UK as well
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MindTheGap
1800 posts
Oct 09, 2016
1:09 AM
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I'm sure you *can* use a 5W amp successfully in a band setting. I've even done it myself with reinforcement, but what I'm saying is you really have to want to - it's not the obvious best fit.
I'm always being told that Eric Clapton used one to record Layla. Is that true - people tell me all kinds of things. Anyway I don't suppose he used to play it live, or maybe he did?
I can see the attraction of the older amps, but a notable feature of the new ones is that they are much lighter. I don't know how it's done, the new amplifier types e.g. Class D may be part of it. But the cabinets seem much lighter too. The weight may/may not be a consideration for different people, it is for me.
We've got some powered PA speakers and, although charmless, are amazingly small, light and loud. They've got Class D amplifiers in.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 09, 2016 1:28 AM
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MindTheGap
1801 posts
Oct 09, 2016
1:34 AM
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...and having heard recordings of Superbee playing his big amp over a loud band, I can tell that he gets a much stronger trad-amped-harp sound than I can using a harp break into the PA. However, that wasn't the remit of the OP.
I'm not prepared to buy a big tube amp, learn to repair it, or lug it around. Or pay at least $400 for a single harp :) I'm not a serious enough player, so you can discount all my findings and opinions in that light.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 09, 2016 1:41 AM
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shakeylee
579 posts
Oct 09, 2016
7:12 AM
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Well,I figured the U.K. ,but I wouldn't want to walk from one end to the other ?? I was thinking a little more specific. ---------- www.shakeylee.com
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jfmdnn
1 post
Oct 10, 2016
1:40 PM
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Hi everybody I'm a beginner playing for a few month now and I have the opportunity to buy one of these amps, but it won't be possible for me to try them. So, if you could give me your opinion, it'd be great! Here are the candidates: - fender pawn shop greta - $200 - bugera v5 - $130 - fender bassbreaker 007 - $430 I play Suzuki pro master and have a shure sm57 and an audix fireball V with an impedance transformer. Just want to add that my goal (for now) is just to have some fun at home. I hope I'm in the right place.
Thanks
Last Edited by jfmdnn on Oct 10, 2016 1:42 PM
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Killa_Hertz
1795 posts
Oct 10, 2016
2:23 PM
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Jfmdnn of that list i would personally say the bugera v5.
Now back to the OP.
Lets say Ed did get a 5 watt amp. Whats wrong with having a few nice voiced 5watts and a nice extension cabinet?
Not enough juice to drive it?
Just trying to open up options.
Or another option could be 2 x 5 watt amps on a splitter? Gussow Style.
I don't play live, so I'm not sure how well any of this actually works in a full band context. I'm just trying to think outside the box a bit. I'm also curious for myself, if any of my 5watts are going to have any practical applications in a real band setting. ----------
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MindTheGap
1805 posts
Oct 10, 2016
11:01 PM
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Jfmdnn, on the site there is also the Beginners Forum where we've discussed amps for home use quite a lot. Although I agree with the bugera, you may be surprised about how loud they are - so it depends on the nature of your home.
As for the 5W discussion, my own experience is no they aren't really the right tool in a band setting, unless it's very quiet band e.g. no drums, or drums-with-brushes. One of Adam's ideas is to have a small amp (for his chosen sound) going into a big power amp. Mic'd or line-out, I can't remember. Mic'd I think. That works, but it's a lot of kit.
I've also seen vids (1847 I think) of Champs into Bassmans (or something small into big at any rate) to good effect.
Since it appears there is a big market for 5W amps, it appears to be the obvious thing to buy and I'm sure they are lovely - and they do sound great in all those YT vids, loads of them, played solo in someone's front room. No sarcasm, they sound super. I'm just relaying my disappointment about what it can sound like playing with a band.
It's a simple practical point - the 5W amp sounds best when you are free to dial in your choice of volume/breakup. In a band situation, you aren't free to do that. Turned up too much it's a fuzzbox.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 11, 2016 12:10 AM
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jfmdnn
2 posts
Oct 11, 2016
2:04 PM
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Thanks both of you. Going to the right place.
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Killa_Hertz
1797 posts
Oct 12, 2016
4:50 AM
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Well MTG if you run a 5W into a Bassman, you still have to have the bassman .... lol.
"the 5W amp sounds best when you are free to dial in your choice of volume/breakup. In a band situation, you aren't free to do that. Turned up too much it's a fuzzbox.'
I was wondering if there was a cheaper Viable way to use your 5w amp in a band setting.
Like you said, Dialed in right they sound great. So is there a way to set it up right and then run it into a 4x8 extension cabinet? I have multiple 5w amps so an extension cabinet ( vs buying a 4x8 amp ) would be much more useful and versatile. As i could voice it with which ever amp I choose. 4x8 extension is just an example ofcourse, and I realize the signal may have to be boosted somehow in order to do this. But basically that's what im asking...lol. How would you do it? And is it worth it? I would think more people would do it if it were that easy.
I realise I'm getting into my own thing here a bit, So perhaps I will Run this into a new thread. ----------
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1847
3745 posts
Oct 12, 2016
7:54 AM
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i remember at one time adam was running a small amp in to a pa he had on stage using a sennheiser mic.
maybe a powered speaker would work as well.
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LSB
204 posts
Oct 12, 2016
8:42 AM
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"I have multiple 5w amps"
Sell those and get a single more powerful amp - good deals can be found on used amps. You'll have a lot more versatility and there are some higher power amps that sound excellent at lower volumes. If you want a ton of breakup at really low volume, use a pedal or or an attenuator.
Bottom line, you're going to buy a more powerful amp eventually anyway, we all do, lol.
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1847
3746 posts
Oct 12, 2016
9:28 AM
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if i did not have too many amps already, i would buy one of these. it is loud enough for most places, requires no maintenance, it can be mic'd if necessary and is reasonably priced.
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Killa_Hertz
1801 posts
Oct 12, 2016
12:51 PM
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LSB ... Thanks for the cold hard truth ... lol. ----------
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LSB
205 posts
Oct 12, 2016
12:58 PM
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Killa, just trying to save you all the time and money I spent, lol.
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MindTheGap
1809 posts
Oct 12, 2016
1:24 PM
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Killa - don't get me wrong, I don't think it's wrong to love your 5W amplifier(s)! Just that they have limitations, that appear surprisingly quickly I found.
I know people put them out into a bigger cabinet, and that's louder, but it can only go so far.
If I lived on a farm, I'd love to use it for regular home practice.
We're going to need a bigger boat.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 12, 2016 1:26 PM
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1847
3747 posts
Oct 12, 2016
2:14 PM
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some of it comes down to how loud you want to play. my friends played last week in a very large room. a lone wolf harp train was used. they played at a low volume so they would be asked back.
on the other hand, my other friends that play much, much louder, have their jam at yet another new location, simply because it is necessary to play loud to get their tone.
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SuperBee
4178 posts
Oct 12, 2016
2:27 PM
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re-reading the OP, maybe it's not a full band situation here. Looks more like a OMB. In which case a 5 watt amp would likely be plenty
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MindTheGap
1810 posts
Oct 12, 2016
11:03 PM
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Superbee - true, but Ed says he often doesn't want an overdriven sound. As you've said yourself, there's not much headroom on a 5W amp before it starts to overdrive. It is possible that 5W might work in his situation, but I'm just saying it's not a safe bet. And it's not very multi-purpose - he implies he would like to sing through it too.
As you say 1847, it's down to how loud you want to play. In a quiet setting, it's fine.
We're going round in circles a bit. I'm just pushing back against the sort of standard recommendation of that kind of amp. Pointing out that they are great in situations where they are great. Being brutal, they seems to be at their best in solo amp demos :)
Whereas something like a Fender Champion 40 may not give such a classic amped-harp-tone but could be used in a range of situations. And it has a clean tone that can be used for harp and other things, like vocals.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 12, 2016 11:34 PM
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MindTheGap
1811 posts
Oct 12, 2016
11:10 PM
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A more radical approach might be a pedals and powered speaker, to optimise power/weight/price/versatility. But it wouldn't look very authentic.
Or how about that ZT Lunchbox thing?
Killa - I've seen people use an external cabinet and I believe that is louder, but it only goes so far. But yes, that does extend the versatility. Part of the charm of the sound of little amp though is the small speaker and cabinet though.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 12, 2016 11:42 PM
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Killa_Hertz
1803 posts
Oct 13, 2016
8:26 PM
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Yea, i figured as much. And putting MORE money into a cab just for a 5 watt does seem like money that could be better spent.
Well for now my 5 watts do me just fine. Maybe a harp gear in my future. Lol.
Bee. I do like to play overdriven most of the time. But the specific amp i was talking about, i was trying to get to be more versitle. But it's just really not there in the 5 watt tube amp, as you already stated. So i use a solid state for playing wuth clean sounds. ----------
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MindTheGap
1814 posts
Oct 14, 2016
1:09 AM
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rogonzab has just posted a demo of a Harp Train into a bigger cabinet, if you're interested. Sounds good, no idea as to the volume of course. http://www.modernbluesharmonica.com/board/board_topic/5560960/5494096.htm
How about your 5W amp, mic'd into a 200W ZT Lunchbox?
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Killa_Hertz
1804 posts
Oct 14, 2016
4:11 AM
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Yea I there are always other options.
I like the voicing of my 5watts. And theres always micing,or line out, but running to FOH kinda leaves all the control in the sound techs hands. Thats a scary thought. lol.
idk .... I have no real world experience from that end of the stage so its all speculation. I guess I'll cross that bridge when I get there. I was just curious as to the options and peoples opinions of what is better. ----------
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Loz123
54 posts
Oct 14, 2016
5:07 AM
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A friend of mine in the north west has just started customising and selling the mighty mo, good price to
please see link below
thanks
Laurie
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYZ3NPjUQlk
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MindTheGap
1816 posts
Oct 14, 2016
5:16 AM
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Loz123 - sounds fab in the vid, and shown off to great effect. But it's another small tube amp on a chair in a living room. See discussion above. There will be one situation where it's just the right combo of distortion and volume.
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Thievin' Heathen
849 posts
Oct 14, 2016
5:22 AM
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYZ3NPjUQlk
I think that would do the job. He's demo'ing it through, I believe he say's, "1959 Green Bullet CM". With that Mic, you might come close to that sound through an $80 used Marshall Valvestate with a good speaker in it. I would have liked to hear it through a Shure 57.
I think boutique amps through vintage Mics might be outside the OP's budget.
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MindTheGap
1817 posts
Oct 14, 2016
6:14 AM
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Really? OP says he often doesn't want a distorted sound, and he wants something multipurpose.
I know this seems to be turning into an anti-5W-crusade, actually I really like mine. But sing though it?
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Goldbrick
1652 posts
Oct 14, 2016
7:07 AM
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Since he doesnt care about overdriven sound- and plays other instruments too why not an acoustic amp like Fender Acoustasonic or Ashdown 40 ?
Has reverb on the vocal channel and you can use it like a pa if you want another instrument input or run 2 types of mic.
Actually he should just go to a shop and try some stuff for himself as amps are a pretty personal choice for some and " I will use anything and make it work for others"
For 90% of the players out there ( including myself) most equipment is better than the player anyway
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1847
3748 posts
Oct 14, 2016
7:42 AM
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http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fender-Acoustasonic-Amp-PR-370-450-Watts-SFX-Technology-/191978258152?hash=item2cb2cbbee8:g:zC8AAOSwtnpXlT12
THE FENDER ACOUSONIC amp from what i remember is a absolutely killer harmonica amp. i played thru one once and was quite surprised how well it worked it was one of the first ones and quite large.
they have a new modal out, well worth checking out.
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Loz123
55 posts
Oct 14, 2016
9:06 AM
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Hi ED e mail mat his my tutor and a descent bloke he wont tell you any bullshit. He would be able to advise you if its an amp that would meet your needs
Thanks
Loz
http://www.matwalklate.co.uk/
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MindTheGap
1819 posts
Oct 14, 2016
9:46 AM
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That Acoustasonic does look practical. Assuming we've read Ed's needs correctly, that does look like an amp that's designed for the job. Here's the current 90W one. Separate mic and instrument channels, with mixed XLR/1/4" input on the mic channel. Even the little 15W one has that.
http://intl.fender.com/en-GB/series/acoustasonic/acoustasonic-90-230v-eu-ds/
I think going to a shop is an obvious thing to do, but I still say that the volume available/required is a difficult thing to judge out of context.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 14, 2016 9:50 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1809 posts
Oct 14, 2016
10:30 AM
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You know thats an interesting point.
When playing in a loud bar band, how much do you actually notice the difference between a nice tube amp sound and a decent Solid State amp sound?
Or perhaps a hybrid?
Solid State Modeling amps are much cheaper and much more versatile. ----------
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MindTheGap
1821 posts
Oct 14, 2016
11:17 AM
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I think you hear the difference if it's actually loud enough.
I really am a stuck gramophone record.
My first experience of this was going to a jam, they were setting up Bassman on it's own and I though it was stupidly, oppressively loud. Then when the band arrived and started playing, I realised exactly why it was needed.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Oct 14, 2016 11:21 AM
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Barley Nectar
1260 posts
Oct 16, 2016
7:32 PM
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OK, I'm back. I know, I missed this party but I'll put my 2c in anyway. My first thought about the OP's comments, he needs an acoustic amp. Use the 58 with one of Greg's volume controls. Get a Harp Break or some such pedal for dirt. Stay away from the green Crate acoustic thing, problem amp. Marshall made a sweet acoustic amp that my buddies love for geetar but i never played through one, they are reliable...BN
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Ed Hopwood
14 posts
Nov 01, 2016
11:38 AM
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Hello again, apologies for the delayed response. Thanks for all the comments and really specific advice, this is really helpful! I'm going to start researching some of the suggested models and poss see if I can try a few out in music shops! I've also heard good things about the harp break pedal so will give that a try too. I'll report back soon
Ed
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harmonicanick
2538 posts
Nov 02, 2016
8:21 AM
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I hesitate to recommend a guitar amp but Fender Blues Junior serves me well and I gig twice a week. You need the right mic not to get feedback but I don't get any now and Ii like a pretty clean sound I plug a digital delay pedal in and away you go
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Goldbrick
1674 posts
Nov 02, 2016
8:34 AM
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Typical a month later and hasnt tried any amps.
Obviously not all that interested
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Ed Hopwood
16 posts
Dec 30, 2016
4:25 AM
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Sorry Goldbrick, I don't mean to be rude. It's just i've literally only just had some time to research these suggestions! I really appreciate the excellent and valuable advice. Thing's move fairly slow for me in terms of equipment improvements and I'm just gathering some knowledge in an area that I know little about. Ed
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