Killa_Hertz
1586 posts
Jun 15, 2016
5:02 PM
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Ive had a few run ins recently with people who play strictly ootb harps. The problem with this is they have never played a harp with any work done to it. So they have no frame of reference.
Captcha got my last post so this is not as good as the last. But you ll get the point.
Basically i have been told that the only reason to modify a harp is because of lack of technique. I dont exactly buy this.
I feel that by tightening the gaps, shaping the reeds, and making a harp more airtight you not only allow for much softer playing (which seems to be nearly impossible with the random gaps in most ootb harps) but i think you also extend the life of the harp because of the softer playing. The harp also plays much easier, more efficiently, and effectively.
Also i think this has a major effect on being able to advance faster in your playing. Because your reeds respond evenly from hole to hole, aswell as from harp to harp in your set, so you can spend your time working on new techniques instead of focusing on how to overcome flawed gapped/shaped reeds and uneven playing harps.
So my questions are.
1 Do any of you play strictly ootb harps?
2. Do any of you agree with what I have said here? (In general) or am i way off base?
I really want to figure this out because I find it amazing the people can play ootb harps so well. And if it truely is flawed tecnique, Id like to know.
However i still dont really see the point. When you can make a far superior harp in a little over an hour, why play ootb harps?
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ridge
673 posts
Jun 15, 2016
5:48 PM
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I'm putting in the first reply so that my opinion matters more! :D
There is nothing wrong with playing harmonicas straight out of the box. We all start that way (presumably) and some of our most beloved players did/do that very thing.
I personally like to understand (or try to understand) how things work. I have been able to take my playing to the next level by being able to adjust my harmonicas to my playing style.
I no longer have to play the game of chance hoping to get a "good" OOTB harmonica. Every harmonica I get becomes good. As an added bonus, my harmonicas are no longer a consumable item which wastes a lot less money. It's not uncommon for me to have harmonicas that are 5 or more years old.
I could say more, but it's already been said many times over in other threads. It's definitely not for everybody, but I would recommend at least trying to work on a busted harmonica if you're going to just end up tossing it. Who knows, you might just catch the bug!
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Ridge's YouTube
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STME58
1748 posts
Jun 15, 2016
6:32 PM
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Harmonicas have gotten better even in the few years I have been playing. Harps seem much more likely to play well out of the box than they used to. Occasionally I will get one that needs a bit of adjustment. My technique has also improved and I can bend to get notes on harps that are out of adjustment that I would not have been able to get in the past, but it is so much more pleasant to play a properly adjusted harp that I take the time to adjust them.
If a reed is hitting the reed plate, no amount of technique will compensate for that. It doesn't take much to center it with a reed wrench or a pair of pliers, so why not do that rather than buy a new harp and hope it works.
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Fil
154 posts
Jun 15, 2016
6:46 PM
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It must have been off line. I don't recall seeing a post anywhere suggesting that the only reason to modify a harp is (to make up for?) lack of technique. I've got all SP 20's with the exception of a nice Seydel Bb, a nice harp, but I like the SP20 Bb. If gapping a little on some of them (you were persuasive...got me to go ahead and do it) when obviously in need counts as modifying, then I'm guilty. But basically they are OOTB. I haven't bought a new one in 5 years. I'm told I'm a soft player. And I have a pretty good idea of and an interest in how harps work. Maybe OOTB just suits some people. To each his/her own. Just as soon spend my time playing a decent serviceable harp than seeking perfection. For me that's the point. For others, it's different. Not a challenging you, just IMHO.
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Phil Pennington
Last Edited by Fil on Jun 15, 2016 6:47 PM
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Killa_Hertz
1587 posts
Jun 15, 2016
7:48 PM
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First off it was a FB thing. On top of actualy meeting a few people in person this week who also don't tweak their harps at all. And they were great players. So it just got me thinking is all.
I do a little more than just gaping. But not much more. But the things i do make a great bit of difference. And that is also my point a bit. It's not that difficult to Make your harps better playing. I agree sometimes people (myself included) take it a bit to far. But just doing the bare minimum of gaping can make your life easier. I just dont understand why someone would be so against it. And go so far as to call it cheating.
To each his own, I'm not upset about it, just a bit confused. I never heard so many people be so insistant on playing ootb harps.
Also i think I'm a bit jealous because i dont think i could do it. I know it would at the very least very much impede my playing if i tried to do the same. And all these people im speaking of are many times better than i am. And for a few of them thats a complete understatement.
So it was just enough to make my head spin a bit is all. Lol.
Btw ... To these people OOTB means just that. Not even gaping. Lol.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jun 15, 2016 7:54 PM
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SuperBee
3861 posts
Jun 15, 2016
9:15 PM
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they could be bullshitting. That's a proud old tradition.
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nacoran
9111 posts
Jun 15, 2016
9:42 PM
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I've got some good OOTB harps that play great. I've got more harps that just needed a little gapping. I've played a couple harps that have been set up by someone who knows what they are doing.
You will get consistently great harps if you get them set up by someone who knows what they are doing. That doesn't mean you won't get some great out of the box harps too, though. I find most harps can use a little gapping to play better. What I'm looking for is to be able to pick up whichever harp is closest and get a consistent response. I think setting up harps becomes more important when you start overblowing, but never adjusting a harp? That's being kind of dogmatic. I have only ever once had a student, (and they didn't stick with it). They bought a Hering harp and one of the reeds kept making a buzzing noise. He wanted to return it. He couldn't believe that he got a 'defective' harp. I calmed him down and explained to him over the phone how to fix a misaligned reed. Five minutes later he had a working harmonica.
If you aren't overblowing you can probably play just about any harmonica and get it to do whatever you want, but if it's set up properly it will do it easier. Does that mean you aren't working on your chops? Well, in my book, if you can spend a few minutes doing basic things like gapping on a new harmonica and you can get your harmonica to do whatever you want what difference does it make? Either way you are getting your harp to do whatever you want. You either put the effort in setting your harp up or playing.
On a slight tangent, I've heard people complain that they don't like switching between models because the holes are spaced slightly differently. (Actually, most of the times it's not the hole spacing but the width of the tines. A hole may be wider or narrower from model to model, but for instance, if you compare a LO and a MB the length from the left end of the one hole to the right end of the ten hole is almost identical. On Seydels the row is a little longer.) I noticed a couple times when I was starting out that it would trip me up. Then I started playing around on a Hohner Puck. After playing that the difference between other models seemed so small I didn't even notice. So anyway, that's an example where chops did make the difference. Learning to play with a harp that played differently helped the rest of my playing.
At the very least though, unless you are made of money, you should be able to do basic maintenance like clearing a jam, but even that is relative. There is an old story that during the height of Microsoft's growth Bill Gates was making money so fast through stock growth that technically it wasn't worth his money to bend over to pick up $10,000. I suppose if it takes 10 minutes to fix a harp, the harp costs $40 and you make more than $240 an hour it's 'cheaper' to just have a spare ready and throw the old one in the trash since you could make $40+ in that 10 minutes.
If you are making more than $240 an hour you probably aren't a professional harmonica player though! :) (Okay, maybe if you just counted the time you were playing for an audience and not the time travelling, practicing, booking and all that...)
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Nate
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First Post- May 8, 2009
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Killa_Hertz
1588 posts
Jun 16, 2016
3:15 AM
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Bee ... That had crossed my mind. Lol.
Nate
I mostly agree. With a little gapping most harps can be greatly improved and play pretty well. I haven't got as many ootb harps that I'm happy with as you have. I got one manji in F that was pretty darn good. But i still eventually opened it up. Lol.
I dont own any True Custom harps. All my harps are just setup by me. Nothing too fancy, but i have got good enough at it that a slightly airy reed (compared to the others) is annoying. I mean some harps are airier than others (i dont emboss. That's something more for the overblow end IMO.) but aslong as they are very consistant and as tight and resposive as i can reasonably get, I'm good with it. Shaping also greatly helps responsiveness and airtightness.
I play all different models with many different home sizes/spacings. It bothered me at first, but not such a big deal anymore.
Even if i was making that much, i would still just pay someone else to set them up instead. Maybe its just because I started gapping my harps tight so early. I had just barely got bends and I read up on how to gap and started experimenting with different size gaps. They made my bends much stronger almost instantly. I still had to learn the tecnique end of it a bit better (and am still to some extent) but some of those really airy holes on my first harp were real hard to get. My reed archs back then were literally archs, to get the tip up and keep it from going through the slot first. It actualy worked ok. But ive learned much better meathods since then ... lol.
Anyhow this is getting long winded. The point is just .. maybe if i had spent a little more time with the stock setup i wouldn't be so picky?
Idk. I guess i just needed to hear that i wasnt crazy. Well maybe that's going to far. But atleast hear that my harp setup was justified and playing only ootb harps is a little extreme.
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MindTheGap
1683 posts
Jun 16, 2016
3:26 AM
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I know you love the custom harps, and the process of customising them. But there is an alternative vibe which is to make music with a simple, good-quality, stock harp, albeit with a bit of gapping. I think you owe it to yourself to try that for a bit and see how you like it.
EDIT: our posts crossed. I do think your harps are 'custom' even if you've done them yourself. New covers, combs, reed work, rounding out edges, opening backs etc.
Last Edited by MindTheGap on Jun 16, 2016 3:41 AM
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Killa_Hertz
1589 posts
Jun 16, 2016
4:03 AM
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I also wanted to add that i know everyone's playing style is different.
But it's also confusing that if each playing style means people like their harps setup differently, then how is it possible for people like joe spiers to setup a harp that everyone agrees plays great?
Hmmm .... does that mean that there truly is a BEST formula for how a harp should be setup??
Just a thought.
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Harmonicatunes
162 posts
Jun 16, 2016
4:05 AM
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I've been playing Neil Graham custom harmonicas for almost 15 years, so I'm very familiar with high end custom instruments.
I also play "regular" harmonica, mostly Hohner Crossovers, to extend the life of Neil's custom instruments.
All the gapping comments above certainly apply. There is another easily applied mod which significantly lifts the performance of OOTB instruments, that is, custom combs.
The argument is simple. A comb from a craftsman's workshop has to be flatter than a mass produced one, with a noticeable improvement in airtightness and hence performance. I've been using Andrew Zajac's combs, Tom Halchack (Blue Moon) and Joel Andersson also make combs, both have excellent reputations. Apologies to anyone else I've missed.
For the player, no particular skill is required for this modification. Just a flat sanding of the draw plate (Andrew's site has a video showing how), a few screws tightened and the job is done. I notice an immediate improvement. Plus the instruments feel better with new combs, look better too.
Re the Special 20. In recent years I've found them unresponsive and leaky. They haven't changed I suspect, it's just that I've gotten used to Neil Graham's supremely airtight custom instruments. I've recently converted a set of SP20s, replacing the enclosed plastic combs with Andrew Zajac's ones. I added Rocket covers for good measure. The difference is immediate.
So. For the OOTB players who can't see the point of custom instruments, try the small investment of some custom combs. In my view, you won't be sorry. When reeds die, keep the combs, and buy replacement plates. RockinRon stocks them, others do likewise.
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Tony Eyers
Australia
www.HarmonicaAcademy.com
everyone plays...
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jbone
2186 posts
Jun 16, 2016
4:18 AM
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I occasionally get a custom here or there. They usually play nice, like a stock sports car vs a hot rodded one. BUT for the same reason I won't work on my own engine or wristwatch, I won't do much past keeping a harp clean. A new harp SHOULD play the best it can be made to these days. My money SHOULD buy a good ootb harp, If not I shop someplace else.
There are models and brands which have proven to be good ootb. I keep watching for new innovations.
The best thing to ever happen to harmonicas imo is replaceable reed plates. This means I can buy a better harp and keep it going indefinitely with a few minutes' work and a few bucks investment.
I used to rebuild General Motors front ends just for fun. Eventually I realized it was not worth the busted knuckles. The time to benefit ratio of working on harps, the learning curve, and the commitment in tools and headaches is just not worth it to me when I can play a decent harp as is and get decent results.
I'm not the tech player a lot of you are. But I know my soul and how it links to a tin sandwich and how these two things work together to bring joy to the world.
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Reverbnation
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Youtube
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RyanMortos
1566 posts
Jun 16, 2016
5:45 AM
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There just seems to be people who decided based on whatever that they will only play ootb harmonicas or only play marine bands or will never do overblows/overdraws or will only play 1st-3rd on diatonic and 3rd, maybe 1st on chromatic. And that's fine, they are only limiting themselves & to talk to them sounds like they're spreading some old nonsense that isn't based on reality. At the same time it's very possible to take a ootb quality harmonica and make good music on stage. If you only play ootb harmonicas what happens when you get one with a misaligned reed or gaped way too high I guess they have to toss it or play around that note otherwise open it up adjust it and it's no longer ootb is it. One person I know like this blows out their harmonicas and replacing them all the time. I really don't subscribe to everything people say on Facebook or forums or even in person just because they believe it is true. It's fine to listen to their argument, experiment, and come up with your own opinions. Just remember that someone saying custom harmonicas are for lack of technique or for those who cheat are talking about opinions not facts.
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~Ryan
See My Profile for contact info, etc.
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SuperBee
3862 posts
Jun 16, 2016
6:29 AM
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That's pretty well said Ryan. The stuff after the first 2 sentences I mean.
Im on the same page as Ridge on this.
Was it tony glover said "it's your bread; blow as thou please"?
Personally I fix em.im not gonna play a dud harp when I know I can spend 5 minutes and make it a lot better to play.
Harps vary. Factory harps I mean. That's just how it is. There's no one size fits all solution. I play stock, I play customs, I mend my own and other people's. Tony thinks combs fix it, jbonevthinks manjis are great. I think combs are overrated. Goldbrick thinks Dylan is the greatest songwriter since Hank Williams.
Who cares what someone thinks unless they are gonna do something about me disagreeing? Especially when they're wrong.
Like Ryan says...opinions only.
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Martin
1025 posts
Jun 16, 2016
7:39 AM
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I only play OOTB harps. If a screw requires tightening, then I can do that, but any more advanced customing is beyond me. Too clumsy.
Paying two or three times what I pay now for a harmonica is completely out of the picture: I have a really hard time making them last as it is, and from what I´ve understood some customizing techniques can make them even more delicate.
That said, I can pretty much get an OB from just about any harp that I buy -- even the really low priced variants. No OD´s though.
The GM´s and S20´s have shaped up quite a bit lately, and if they just lasted a bit longer I´m not sure I´d really see the need for customization, given that I had the money.
But then it must be said that I´ve never so much as held a custom harp in my hand, so maybe some time in the possible future thare´s a Damascus moment waiting for me.
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Goldbrick
1504 posts
Jun 16, 2016
7:39 AM
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I gap 'em if they need it and sometimes switch covers.
I miss the powder coated covers that Blue Moon used to sell as they are very ez on the lips if you are playing multiple sets at a gig.
It is my job to keep them running. I set up my own guitars and drums- its part of being a musician. Its nice to know how something works. Years of riding Triumphs and Harleys taught me that
I dont find customs necessary - I dont look at them - I just play them. I dont use overblows- but if I did I would emboss and gap them Its pretty much whatever turns you on
The point is what ever allows you to concentrate on making music is the way to go
I play some session slide guitar and have had some some guys tell me that open guitar tunings are "cheating ". I say tell that to Son House or Robert Johnson. Its about the music
Last Edited by Goldbrick on Jun 16, 2016 7:41 AM
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dougharps
1251 posts
Jun 16, 2016
8:34 AM
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I routinely adjust gaps on OOTB harps and can troubleshoot problems, but I am generally satisfied with the build of most mid to high end OOTB harps (gapping excluded).
I do have some Deak Harps bought when I gigged more that are easiest to play of all, but the expense of that improved performance can't be justified for the music I play and in my current budget. I just use a couple overblows, no overdraws, so I get by with adjusted OOTB harps. When I really want chromaticism, I use a chromatic harmonica, not advanced diatonic technique.
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Doug S.
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arzajac
1773 posts
Jun 16, 2016
8:58 AM
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The fact is that there is no perfect OOTB harp. They are all mass-produced and that means some harps will be better than others but none will be perfect. As you get closer and closer to perfection, the cost increases. Hence the pricetag of a custom harmonica. You get what you pay for.
"(working on harps) The harp also plays much easier, more efficiently, and effectively. .. Also i think this has a major effect on being able to advance faster in your playing. "
I agree. As with most things involving fine motor control, the difficulty for a beginner is mostly in getting comfortable with being able to relax the muscles that are not in use. If the harp is uncooperative, brute force tends to slow down the learning process because your mind can't identify what mucles to contract and which ones to relax - they are all tense.
"Basically i have been told that the only reason to modify a harp is because of lack of technique. I dont exactly buy this. "
Me neither, I think that's completely false. I think this comes from a place of insecurity. Since "perfect" harps are not very accessible the only other variable in the equasion is to lower your standards. If you lower your expectations enough, any harp will fit the bill and you don't have to worry anymore! It also fits the blues idiom. Make due with what you got!
That works fine for some folks - to each their own.
But it's incorrect to assume others should lower their standards too because you've decided that something should be "good enough".
A good musician can adapt. If an instrument fails during a performance, you can simplify, choose another line, play a different lick and get through the song. But that shouldn't be your first and only option.
What can the audience hear? Are they getting 100 per cent of what you can offer? Example, Are you avoiding vibrato on the 3 draw bends because the notes are barely there? Is your harp out of tune? Without a doubt these are things the audience will hear.
How much time/effort/money are you willing to invest into a harp to get the most out of it? There just one correct answer to that question - it depends on the musician. But with the choice of custom harps, custom harp components, tools and instructions, there are plenty of options to choose from.
Martin: "from what I´ve understood some customizing techniques can make them even more delicate."
Not usually true. A well-playing harp should outlast one that is harder to play simply because you are not using extra force to get it to play - you are not fighting with it. And not all custom harps are set up to play delicate. It's customized to your breath.
What is true is that you can weaken, damage or outright destroy a reed if you overwork it. That's part of the learning curve. But once you become competent, there is hardly any effect. For example, I can make dramatic changes to a reed's shape and when all is said and done the pitch will have only changed two or three cents. A beginner may flatten the pitch by more than a semitone the first time they work on adjusting a reed's shape.
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica Combs and Tools.
Last Edited by arzajac on Jun 16, 2016 9:01 AM
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dougharps
1252 posts
Jun 16, 2016
9:37 AM
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I would like to add to my post that I think it is worthwhile to try a custom comb or two and to buy at least one custom harp, if not a few. An embossed harp with adjusted reed profiles and good air tightness of comb and reed plates will have some tonal differences, but will play VERY easily. I like the Deak Harps I have and would like to explore other customs based on the reviews I have read.
Don't decide that OOTB harps are your answer before checking out some customs. If I could afford it I would play all custom harps. My gigs don't justify the expense, and good adjusted OOTB harps get the job done for me at an acceptable cost.
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Doug S.
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Goldbrick
1506 posts
Jun 16, 2016
9:56 AM
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The harp builders have a dog in the fight-thats their business.
Do you drive a car with a blue printed motor?
Do you wear custom clothes ?
They are mass produced too
You use these items more than harps I am sure
I bet you adapt
Sly said it best-different strokes for different folks
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Killa_Hertz
1590 posts
Jun 16, 2016
10:00 AM
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Ryan Mortos that's my point exactly. What happens when you get a funky ootb harp that needs a reed aligned. Plus i think all harps need atleast gapping.
I dont NEED to do the rest of that stuff. I have some harps that are just gapped and that's it. i can play them just fine. But these other folks arguments are that gapping is even not needed. And is cheating And that to me is just silly.
Also someone made a comment about expensive tools. I made all my tools. very cheaply i might add. A $300 tool kit is not required to work on harps.
Thanks for that post Andrew. Good stuff. That explains to me how they are still able to sound so well when playing them. Because they know where the weaknesses in each harp is and skilfully sidestep those areas. Like your example of skipping the vibrato in the 3. This explanation makes alot of sense and really settles my biggest issue. "How do they do it? "
Basically i agree with everyones general opinion here. Gapping is a necessity. Everything else is a bonus.
I'm just glad to get the SANE versions of this argument. Lol.
Sorry for the spelling errors. On my phone and in a rush.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on Jun 16, 2016 10:02 AM
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the_happy_honker
246 posts
Jun 16, 2016
11:44 AM
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Whenever I need a harp, I keeping on buying until I find one that plays like a custom. I get OOTB bragging rights AND custom performance, woo-hoo!
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arzajac
1774 posts
Jun 16, 2016
12:15 PM
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"Whenever I need a harp, I keeping on buying until I find one that plays like a custom. I get OOTB bragging rights AND custom performance, woo-hoo!"
That would be like ordering a hamburger and unwrapping it to discovering a full sushi platter!
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Custom overblow harps. Harmonica Combs and Tools.
Last Edited by arzajac on Jun 16, 2016 12:16 PM
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STME58
1749 posts
Jun 16, 2016
2:02 PM
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Reminds me of the stories you hear about famous harp players walking into a music store, buying the entire stock of harps of a particular key, trying them all and taking the best one or two and leaving the rest on the counter for the music store owner to dispose of.
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harmonicanick
2484 posts
Jun 16, 2016
2:54 PM
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It is 95% technique
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Thievin' Heathen
770 posts
Jun 16, 2016
4:13 PM
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I once bought a box full (15 or 20 harps) of apparently brand new F's & B's in Special 20, Lee Oskar, Marine Band, Big River, off ebay for a "Buy it Now" of something ridiculous like $30. The box was shipped from Nashville. I have always wondered if it was the OOTB tuning someone was rejecting? Maybe a music store gone out of business?
I got a lot of use out of them, tuning & customizing practice. I still have a bunch of them. When are you going to wear out a B?
As far as OOTB Vs. Custom, or tweaked, I have talked to many performing harmonica players who play straight OOTB Lee Oskars. I recently offered to fix a stuck reed on a guys LO. He asked how $much? I told him worst case was he would need to buy new reed plate for $19. His reply, "why should I spend $19 on reed plates when I can get a new harp for $40.
So, it takes all kinds and who's to say what's right?
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Martin
1026 posts
Jun 17, 2016
4:21 AM
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@Andrew: Thanks for correcting me on that point. What you say makes perfect sense, of course.
I think my notion here came from Joe Filisko, some printed material of his from many years ago, where he made a similar disclaimer. But that was way back.
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Martin: "from what I´ve understood some customizing techniques can make them even more delicate."
Not usually true. A well-playing harp should outlast one that is harder to play simply because you are not using extra force to get it to play - you are not fighting with it. And not all custom harps are set up to play delicate. It's customized to your breath.
What is true is that you can weaken, damage or outright destroy a reed if you overwork it. That's part of the learning curve. But once you become competent, there is hardly any effect. For example, I can make dramatic changes to a reed's shape and when all is said and done the pitch will have only changed two or three cents. A beginner may flatten the pitch by more than a semitone the first time they work on adjusting a reed's shape.
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Spderyak
88 posts
Jun 18, 2016
4:17 AM
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I'm not a great player. I play harps ootb.
I hadn't played in awhile so when I started up again I was surprised how many people dick around with their harps besides just playing them.
Perhaps someday I will, you never know.
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Rontana
332 posts
Jun 18, 2016
4:35 AM
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Generally speaking I'll play a new harp for a bit . . . do some scales and a couple tunes and run through the bent notes. If something sounds/feels off I'll take the harp apart and tweak the gaps that need tweaking. If I'm feeling particularly industrious (a rare occurrence) I'll flat-sand the draw plate. I've also sanded the comb on Marine Bands, though getting all the nails back in (or not losing them . . . they're about the size of a large flea) is a pain.
That's pretty much the extent of my foolin' around. I spend the minimum time possible messing with the guts of the harp . . . just enough to make sure it plays okay (or okay enough for me). Not something I really enjoy. I view it more as maintenance (harps are damned expensive these days, so I try and make mine last)
Last Edited by Rontana on Jun 18, 2016 4:36 AM
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Piro39
115 posts
Jun 18, 2016
8:55 AM
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I don't get the purpose of this thread. If you can make a harp play better than why don't you ? I do it all the time. Are you some kind of a harmonica hero if you don't tweak your harps, this is so ridiculous. If you purchased a sax with some bad pads would you not repair it because you heard that Charlie Parker played with leaky pads. This is the same nonsense as " Should I learn scales ?" Would one ask this ridiculous question with any other instrument ?
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Fil
155 posts
Jun 18, 2016
9:25 AM
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Relax, Piro. I think we'e discussing how some folks make a judgement of where THEIR point of diminishing returns is vis a vis playing, tweaking, customizing...or not... a harp. To some a harp is disposable. Not to most of us. Some get it off chasing the last 5% of perfection. Not most of us. Most of us pick a point in between that suits. It's been interesting and helpful to me to see how other players deal with the question.
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Phil Pennington
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Killa_Hertz
1597 posts
Jun 18, 2016
10:47 AM
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Yes but phil while the extent to which players modify their harps is interesting.
My confusion came from those that do nothing at all. And who call doing anything to your harp what so ever "cheating" or "dicking around"
I just dont get it.
We all pay the same for a marine band. Some get a much better playing instrument by putting a little time into it. Others just deal with the inefficiencies and blow out reeds left and right because they have no breath control due to leaky and unresponsive harps.
I only brought this thread up because i was hearing more and more people advocating ootb playing. And at first i just thought these people likely didnt take the harp too seriously, this would Make sense coming from a player of this type. Then i met a couple players who claim to be strict ootb players. And they are pretty damn good. So it just got me thinking. I was wondering HOW anyone could play one so well.
The explaination Crippy gave makes the most sense to me. That they learn to play around the bad spots and/or play harder to compensate, which in turn blows out reeds left and right.
I just dont know how you can effectively do fast runs with random leaky reeds. And when the spots that are off change from harp to harp.
I strive to make all my harps play the same.
Also i know people spit in the holes of a marine band to get them to play better. Isnt this just a less precise way of tweaking you harp?
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hvyj
3052 posts
Jun 18, 2016
11:11 AM
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If a player has strong enough technique, it doesn't matter what he plays. But playing a custom harp helps develop technique. Personally, I'd been playing a very long time and just could not hit the 10 hole whole step blow bend. Simply could not get the pitch to drop--could not do it.
After I got custom harps with superior response so I was not fighting the harmonica to get it to do what I wanted it do do, I was able to learn how to do 10 hole full step blow bends. Now, after a little practice, I can hit that bend on just about any OOB harp consistently.
As far as OOB harps are concerned, I agree with Tony: the combs are of inconsistent flatness and usually deficient. I almost always replace the stock combs on OOB harps with quality FLAT custom combs. The only OOB harps I don't need to do this on are Hammonds, Firebreaths and the one Suzuki Fabulous I have. Crossovers are nice OOB harps. But they are much better with the Hetrick custom bamboo combs I put on mine (when those were still available) because the Hetricks are FLATTER.
I like playing my full set of custom harps. Since I play multiple positions, I think of my instrument as being my full set of harps. Cost? Well, what does a serious player have to pay for a high quality sax or guitar?
Someone asked if we wear custom clothes. Well, working in a profession where I regularly wear a suit and being over weight, yeah, I have my suits made. Because for what I do, appearance can be important and I am serous about what I do. Of course, available resources have something to do with it, but also what you consider your priorities to be for the resources that are available. I suppose if I were not overweight I might be more comfortable buying a high quality business suit off the rack. I suppose if I had really strong technique I might be more comfortable playing an OOB harp than I am. But any way you look at it, the combs on most OOB harps definitely need an upgrade.
Last Edited by hvyj on Jun 19, 2016 8:24 PM
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Fil
156 posts
Jun 18, 2016
12:44 PM
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Hey kHz, This is a good thread. I'm glad you started it up. Some time back you got me taking gapping more seriously. Now I'm thinking about flat sanding a draw plate or two to see for myself. I'm persuadable.... In the meantime, those who would call it cheating and dicking around can be safely ignored.
Question, have we strictly defined what an OOTB player is? I consider myself an OOTB player (tho not evangelical about it), but will open a harp up to check and adjust gaps, clean, now maybe flat sand.
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Phil Pennington
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Ofir Levi
53 posts
Jun 18, 2016
3:40 PM
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Custom, air tight harps are more prone to being blown out than stock harps.
Hence, Custom harps are for Excellent players with maximum control only who are looking for that 5% boost.
Gapping aside, that's just basic 30 second setup.
Last Edited by Ofir Levi on Jun 18, 2016 3:48 PM
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SuperBee
3865 posts
Jun 18, 2016
7:07 PM
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More prone to blow outs? I'm not sure about that. Don't need to be played as hard, yeah maybe it's true if you were a hard player you might wreck a harp faster if you didn't modify your approach. I have some custom harps though that simply choke if you play with too much air, so I dunno. Extra thick reed plates definitely will shorten reed life though if you play too hard...
I'd like a more informed view about that.
Spit in the holes only ever causes problems in my experience. Soaking (wtf?) I have never understood what the point of that was.
The penny trick (embossing) I believe was well known among chromatic players and seems a fair chance diatonic users could've used that in the past too. Resetting gaps is so obvious I can't really believe it hasn't been practiced forever.
A flat comb won't make a harp airtight unless there's a flat plate for it to mate with.
Nailed harps are often pretty damn good to play, but the gaps can often stand a tweak. I've got 3 in my frontline that I won't mess with until they need it because they are too good as they are.
'Leaky' is often a misused term, applied to the imagined poor mating of plate to comb when in fact the problem is about reeds and slots.
If ootb means you can't touch the setup, imho that is a silly attitude but if someone wants to live by it, it's no skin off my nose. If they can play any old harp with consummate skill, I dips me lid but I don't see a reason to emulate that. No mate, you can have your newfangled wheels, I'm still doing well with me muscles...
I'll personally keep setting gaps, shaping reeds, tuning and repairing them when they break.
As for the LO guy who spends an extra 21 bucks to get covers and a comb he doesn't need...it seems like paying double for beer in a fresh glass rather than refilling the glass in your hand.
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Killa_Hertz
1598 posts
Jun 18, 2016
7:08 PM
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I want to be clear that i dont think anyone is wrong. If it works for you its cool. But i think if those people hell bent on playing ootb tried a simple setup harp they would maybe change their mind when techniques which were once hard to obtain became much easier.
When you know the harp is good then you're the only one to blame. And you have a more controlled experiment. If you look at it that way.
Fil. What im talking about in this thread are unopened ungapped ootb harps. Only because that's what the folks ive been talking to have been advocating playing.
To avoid confusion ive tried to stop saying i play "custom" harps. Because they are not truly customs like you would think of coming from someone like joe spiers.
Instead i would say they are setup. As far as i go with any harp is reed shaping, gapping, Straightening the blow and draw plate, flatsanding the draw plate, and then either flatsand the comb or put on a custom comb. On harps with perticularly sharp edges I'll file em smooth.
I dont really emboss. Embossing is not only tough to do fully, but also very time consuming. And since i don't overblow at this point, its probably unnecessary. Light embossing isn't bad and i will sometimes do this. Just running up and down both sides real quick. Just knocking the sharp slot edges down does a good bit, But full embossing is a skill i have not even come close to being good at. Ive ruined a few practice harps trying and i give up for now. 8^)
But alot of times when i first get a harp i wont feel like doing all that right away. So i just do a quick gap. Then when im feeling froggy ill do like 2 or 3 of my new harps in one day.
I understand its not for everyone. It takes time, but it gets better every time you do it. Both in time and technique.
I enjoy it, but tinkering is in my nature.
So to each his own. But if you haven't tried a setup harp you owe it to yourself to find out i think.
Btw ... Rockin Ron now carries Richard Sleighs - Hot Rod Your Harmonica DVDs and Book set. It's totally the best resource i have seen for learning harp work. The camera angles get right in reeds. It shows multiple ways of reed shaping/arching/offseting whatever you wanna call it. Gapping, flat sanding, embossing. Anything you would want to know. I highly recommend it.
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Killa_Hertz
1599 posts
Jun 18, 2016
7:20 PM
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Bee your post came in right before mine i didn't get a chance to read it.
I ment to adress the easier blew out comment. That's BS. Exactly as you said the ootb players play too hard. So when this is applied to a responsive harp they kill it. Atleast that's my opinion. It seems obvious, but i have nothing to back that up.
I also find it hard to believe that players have not been doing these simple things like gapping and light embossing for years. Peoples biggest defense to the ootb playing is that the heroes did it. But i also think that's bogus.
Re leaky. Yes you definitely have to get the plates as flat as possible aswell.
And DONT do the reed work and then flatsand because they plates are going to change. When the reeds are straightened the gaps change and all that. So you ll have to do it twice. Also don't over tighten when you reassemble.
But for those who dont wanna take it too seriously. That's cool. Even a quick setup will make all the difference.
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Gerry
60 posts
Jun 19, 2016
1:08 AM
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Yesterday, I found a MB that I think I bought in '84 or '85. It's older than that as it came in the cardboard box rather than the plastic.
I thought I'd lost it. It's an E and can only have ever been played 4 or 5 times.
CPs are rusted/tarnished.
I'd describe my level of playing as "early intermediate".
So how does this play OOTB?
Not great, tone is there but it needs some work. I don't know if that proves anything but a new LO from a few weeks back played superbly OOTB.
All engineering is about tolerances. Production has improved but there is always going to be variation within some set parameters.
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Killa_Hertz
1604 posts
Jun 19, 2016
11:37 AM
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I agree that alot of the ootb harps coming out today are damn good. Compared to some of the older harps i have aquired. The manji is almost already embossed the slot tolerances are so tight. But even still, i think they need work to Make them play the way i like. Manjis especially (for some reason) seem to really need a good setup done to them before they really come to life. Reed shaping on a manji seems to make a huge difference.
I think alot of the setup is to conform the harp to your playing style. Everyone seems to like their gaps a little different. But consistency is key, i think. No matter what your preferences are, aslong as the reeds respond the same thru the whole harp, and all the harps through your whole set respond somewhat the same, your good to go.
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Tiggertoo1962
146 posts
Jun 19, 2016
1:05 PM
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"But consistency is key, i think."
You've hit the nail on the head right there, kHz. If you're too dumb to remember instantly how every hole on every harp you have reacts - like I am - and react to it even quicker - like I can't - then consistency is definitely going to be one of your best friends. I mean, why make something which is difficult enough even more so? I'm getting far too old for that kind of masochism ;)
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One of the last of a dying breed.
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hvyj
3053 posts
Jun 19, 2016
8:21 PM
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The notion that fully customized harps blow out or wear out morequickly than OOB harps is NOT true. Like any other harp, you gotta tune them every once in a while, but they are are probably more durable (certainly not any less durable) than stock harps.
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Tuckster
1517 posts
Jun 20, 2016
7:43 AM
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I think gapping a harp is no different than setting the strings closer to the fretboard on a guitar.
I started playing during Hohners bad period and it gave me the bad habit of using too much breath force.I've been unlearning it ever since.
I have no problem playing a decent ootb harp like a Crossover. I have a few customs and the greatest difference is consistency across the harp.I don't have to work hard to play it. I came to realize how many adjustments I was unconsciously making to overcome the shortcomings of less than optimal harps.Richard Sleigh says we use as much breath force across the entire harp as we use to overcome the most recalcitrant hole.
Last Edited by Tuckster on Jun 20, 2016 7:44 AM
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Sundancer
5 posts
Jun 20, 2016
11:34 AM
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As a relative newbie to both harping and this forum, I find the OOTB vs custom threads to be highly amusing. Some folks on this forum surely drive Mercedes Benz. Others drive a Hyundai. Some wear well made leather sole shoes. Others wear rubber soled shoes. Some ride aluminium bikes, others have carbon fibre. But all of us (hopefully) got what we paid for and felt that incremental expenditures resulted in incremental value. Personally, I'd rather have nice shoes and a few Spiers harps than drive a Mercedes Benz. Just saying ...
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florida-trader
936 posts
Jun 20, 2016
3:29 PM
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Goldbrick - I still offer powder coated covers and have recently replenished my inventory.
http://www.bluemoonharmonicas.com/collections/covers
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Jun 20, 2016 7:29 PM
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Killa_Hertz
1614 posts
Jun 21, 2016
12:44 AM
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I drive a mazda3 hatchback. If that makes any difference. Lol.
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the_happy_honker
247 posts
Jun 21, 2016
4:10 AM
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" Personally, I'd rather have nice shoes and a few Spiers harps than drive a Mercedes Benz."
Must be DAMN nice shoes you got there, Sundancer. Spiers harps aren't that expensive.
:-)
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harpwrench
1092 posts
Jun 21, 2016
9:07 AM
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That's right, and since I live in cornfield county USA I can and do give you a lot of harp for the money.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
Harp repair and upgrade menu
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