In a recent thread on accessing the upper end of the harp, I said that there are several scales that I like to work in 2nd position: blues scale, major pentatonic, major. That got me to running all 2nd position blues scale notes in my practice and I realized that I don't do that as often as I had thought. It also reminded me that running scales is not so boring. Here is what I get out of it:
1) Fluency of movement from one scale note to it's immediate neighbours, up an down.
2) Familiarity with the melodic character of the scale sequence, by ending a sequential run of scale notes on a root note. Start on any scale note and play with rhythm and emphasis of notes, while keeping to the scale sequence. Do this starting on each different scale note. I've come up with new riffs this way...
3) For me, learning a scale, particularly where all the scale notes are on the harp, only takes a few days and pays off big. Then I know where all the "good" notes are and I can move on to real song melodies and phrases much easier.
4) When I've really grooved several scales in the same playing position, I can begin to move back and forth between them, e.g. to add variety to a major scale tune by "blusifying" it, while not losing its essence.
Do you like working with scales or hate it, and why? ----------
This is another one of those topics that keeps circling around.
Learning scales is definitely useful, and I like it. I know some people don't like them, but I've heard Jason Ricci, Dennis Gruenling, Winslow Yerxa, and David Barrett all encourage players to practice scales. Those guys are the authority, as far as I'm concerned.
Winslow advocates also an approach of making patterns out of scales. For example: Play the scale note, and then the note two above it. This is a 1-3 pattern.
So, if you were doing the major scale, you would play (in scale degrees): 1-3, 2-4, 3-5, 4-6, 5-7, 6-8, 7 And then back down. Detailed more in his Dummies book. ---------- Marc Graci YouTube Channel
Last Edited by Mirco on May 17, 2016 12:03 PM
I like messing with scales, but i dint do it as much as i should. Nor do i know enough scales. I only know the Blues, Major and Minor Pent. And Major Scales in 2nd. I'm currently learning 3rd position however and plan to learn those scales for 3rd aswell.
I also find TONS of licks based off scales. And once you find a new lick you can take it 100 different directions and by the time your done end up with a whole slew of new licks. Some completely different than the origional.
Especially if you try things like Ricci does, breaking the scale up into triplets and move up a note at a time. Or any other type of pattern. It helps in many ways, but also helps by getting you to play notes in an unfamiliar order or pattern. And i find this unlocks alot of pathways you previously were unaware of.
Anyways. Scales are the basis of everything so why would you not practice them in some form. You have to make it fun tho or what's the point. Nobody wants homework.
Scales have been very , very useful in helping me get one place to another with precision, more or less, and knowing scales have helped me learn new things and helped me develop my ear for picking out tunes. Essentially scales are handy in intuitively knowing where notes are when I need them. Scales are also useful in learning the various chord progressions, tempos and breaks of rock, blues , country and even some jazz structures. Knowing scales has helped me know to anticipate the next chord in a song I haven't played before. Properly used, they can aid you in broadening your style beyond blues--I've experimented with gypsy jazz and speed metal styles with some success, I think. So yes, scales can be very useful and help to keep the adventure of discovery current.
Scales by themselves are not the end all and be all. When I acquired my speed there was a period when I thought I was John Coltrane and Freddie Hubbard and spent most of time playing as fast as I could , contiguously , with out a break. That was a nice party trick, I suppose, but it gets old after a while. I became bored with my set of chops and sought other kinds of music to learn, which in turn influenced my playing. ---------- Ted Burke tburke4@san.rr.com ---------- Ted Burke tburke4@san.rr.com
Scales must be learned as well as chord arpeggios. Knowing the tonality of the changes but not being a slave to starting at the root of each new change is much better. Development of the line over changes when the tonality changes smoothly is what I strive for. ----------
I don't know a scale. I learn from discovery. This makes it fun for me. Looking at formulas doesn't hold my interest. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
I have never practiced scales (i am not smug in saying that)
Originally I was a folk/rock drummer at school and we had a band aged 14/15 in the 1960's
I always loved the sound of the harp and when `i had a sports accident in the early 1970's I concentrated on the harmonica because I could no longer play drums.
John Mayall and Paul Butterfield were early influences, but there were no web lessons and you just did your thing..
I have always played like a drummer, on the beat, off the beat, chugging, whatever..
I studied Primich, Wilson, etc, etc but at no time did I consider scales and even now I alter scales to my whim..
I pick up a harp every day and gig twice a week, at home I always use a Lee Oskar harmonic minor and play just jamming Russian music.
Tomorrow I am gigging with my music partner and he says what key, I reply E minor and we just jam on that key..
Sorry if thats not a clear answer, but I dont know what I do myself!!
Goldbrick, there are others, but the ones I can think of are generally considered inappropriate to discuss in polite company!
I find scales a very good way to get to know an instrument and I find scale work very helpful in developing the skill to pick up a melody quickly.
I can see where some may find scales less important on a diatonic instrument as it has pre-selected notes for you to pick from. I can't imagine trying to improvise on a band instrument without first learning which notes belong to they key you are playing in.
@harmonicanick You have to find ways to make it fun and musical. I suggest Vol. 21 from Jamey Aebersold. It will take you through all twelve keys. ----------
My harmonica teacher told me to choose which scale is the best for the song. Know the key, but choose the best scale. So, I think the mastery is in the scale choice, and the expression comes from being creative with it. I try to sound as conversational as possible, and just regurgitating scales doesn't help with that.
If you play a scale like it's a scale, it gets boring.
If you play a scale as if it is a melodic sequence of notes, it gets interesting.
I posted previously about the advantage of playing a scale to the 9th degree and back (without repeating that top note), which quickly to the ear becomes a melodic line. ---------- The Iceman
@ridge, Love it! That's what I'm aiming for. A scale provides a structure that a player (and audience) can build meaningful content on.
I recognize that some people like Walter and Nick can make sense and meaning in other ways, but scales work for my brain type. ----------
Last Edited by mr_so&so on May 17, 2016 6:39 PM
I think the monster ate my post. If not, my apologies for double posting.
@JInx Yes, but the interesting stuff is in the cracks--so it's useful to be able to play scales with the "imaginary" notes. I remember seeing Christelle arpeggiate the dominant II chord (on a C, the D major chord, draw 1, draw bend 2 for the F#, Draw double bend 3 for the A) and thinking, "That's really cool"--she and Brendan were jamming in a video. Major chords have three of the five notes of a pentatonic, so the major pentatonic of D would be 1 draw, 2 blow, 2 draw bend, 3 draw double bend, 3 draw, 4 draw.
So&So - Obviously I agree. Knowing a collection of notes that relate to each other unlocks many possibilities which I tried to demonstrate above.
1. Rhythm: Using limited amounts of notes confidently allows for more concentration on rhythm rather than fretting over note choice.
2. Licks: After working in a scale long enough, I find I'm able to pick out licks from other instruments easier. Many of the licks we are after (as blues players) lay out in the Minor Pentatonic. We are also able to generate licks on our own that, coupled with rhythm, make us sound more musical.
3. Speed: Or at least the illusion of speed. When you know where you can go and how to get there, you naturally are able to get there quicker if you want to.
4. Dexterity: Being able to jump octaves (or any span of the harmonica) accurately, replicate licks between octaves, play a sequence forwards and backwards.
I understand that this doesn't appeal to everyone. For me, this has been a boon to my playing over the past 6 years. Before then, I could copy pretty well, but now I am able to create. I definitely get more positive feedback from musicians. I also find that I less often feel like I'm in a slump or hit a plateau.
Playing harmonica upside down is optional... ---------- Ridge's YouTube
I'm still a fairly new player with no musical background and play by ear , mostly crossharp . Where is a good source to find these magical scales of which you speak ?
I practice scales & arpeggios in all 12 keys on diatonic and chromatic with Michael Rubin's great tutelage.
Depending on when you ask me I'm somewhere between these are useful and these are boring. Usually a mix of both. I can see their usefulness when applied to jam tracks or band in the box but an hour of arpeggios or scales in a day feels like plenty. Then again I look at Ridge's clip and get excited to sit down to practice them, haha.
Scale practice seems more a long term reward investment likened to working with the metronome and timing as opposed to short term reward investment like getting your first bend or the first time you do a head shake.
Ridge: I found your video impressive. Any tips on how you got to that point from running the scale? I practice scales (& scale excercises) and find them great for visualizing the note layout and for getting around on the harmonica. I choose a certain scale based on what type of flavor I want to play in, but I am light years from being able to play like Ridge did in that video.
Halffast, As Jinx alluded to, the scales are kind of built into a diatonic instrument. On the Richter Harmonica, the major scale starts on blow 4, minor starts on draw 6 Dorian starts on draw 4, there is a name for all 7 starting points. I did a video a while ago on the 7 modal scales available on the diatonic. I don't quite have the chops Ridge has, but I think the concept is useful.
Last Edited by STME58 on May 18, 2016 7:54 AM
Scales are nothing more that a sequence of good note choices for different situations.
If you do that boring scale type exercise, your brain stops listening as you go on auto pilot and play them up and down.
These good note choices are not actually connected in a half/whole tone sequence, but exist outside of this. One should look at the "scale" as a complete entity of good note choices, to be seen as a whole that one may break apart into pieces with which to create musical line in any order.
This is one major advantage of using a keyboard as a reference point as you can see the whole thing without playing the notes sequentially.
If you string pearls into a necklace, they exist in a predetermined order that never changes. If you break the line holding the pearls in place, they fall down and scatter on the ground in no particular order - but they are still the exact same pearls - freed to explore other combinations.
Notes are like pearls in this respect. Scale is a necklace. ---------- The Iceman
@STMW58 I'm much more interested in learning modes. And, from the world of music theory, I like the idea that the blues scale is actually an additional mode. So, I play in 3 modes: blues, minor, and major. My goal is to develop my ear and playing so I can switch modes/keys. Got a long way to go!
I think and oft neglected benefit of running scales is it trains you ear, as well as teaching the mechanics of hitting the notes in sequences. Can you sing a scale? That is a good way to tell if you really have it. Iceman mentions you brain "going on autopilot" and I agree, but I don't think it is entirely a bad thing, that shows you have developed what many call "muscle memory" I suspect that playing on autopilot reinforces this. If something becomes tedious to you though, it may be doing more harm than good. Breaking up the rhythm on a scale is an exercise I like to do. I sometimes have the kids in the Scout Band I lead individually play a scale with all the notes in sequence but changing the length of the notes to make it as musical as possible. At first I make them stick to the sequence, then I let them go either direction but always play the adjacent note, and pretty soon they realize they can make up melodies without having a piece of sheet music in front of them.
Last Edited by STME58 on May 18, 2016 9:10 AM
Goldbrick: I have been playing harp/various instruments for almost 50 years and 20 of those years were as a full time musician. I learned it all by ear/discovery and by now I understand sounds. To me music is sounds and I find the sounds I want easily nowadays thus have no need to sit down and try to learn something. Maybe I play scales when I play? I really don't know what one is, have no interest in knowing what one is, and for me the way to play is to allow what comes out of me to come out unfiltered without thoughts and rules. I don't control it. It controls me. Thus I go on a new musical journey each time I pick up my instruments and practicing something never held my interest as there has always been a song wanting to come out when I pick up an instrument. I don't pick one up unless that calling is there. I don't say learning theory is a good or bad thing. I am just sharing, as in answer to the original post. As to consistency my music is very consistent to my sound like my pizza is consistent to my pizza. Walter ---------- walter tore's spontobeat - a real one man band and over 1 million spontaneously created songs and growing. I record about 300 full length cds a year in the Tunnel of Dreams Studio. " life is a daring adventure or nothing at all" - helen keller
Scales are a good way to learn how the notes relate to each other. As a learning tool I would say they are very helpful, but not essential. I suspect they may be the fastest way to get a good handle on music, but as Walter's experience indicates, certainly not the only way.
Here is an exercise where instead of letting Iceman's pearl necklace scatter all over the floor, you rearrange the pearls in little segments. This also has the advantage of introducing different intervals to put into muscle memory. When you play a scale, you use only seconds, this exercise uses seconds and thirds. If you look though a few band instrument method books you will probably find an exercise very similar to this.
I had two jazz piano teachers back in the 70/80's. One was a choice I made to find the best teacher in town. The other was "assigned" to me through the Music College I attended, as he taught there.
The assigned teacher's philosophy was to go out and play as many jazz gigs as you can, playing as many notes as you can and eventually you weed out the "bad" ones. I'm sure he taught this way because that was the way he came up through the ranks, and became a well known jazz pianist in the Detroit scene.
The teacher that I chose for myself suggested getting into theory and learning scales, etc, in a very musical way. He was also an amazing player, but since he was introverted, had that spooky bigger than life reputation in Detroit.
Now, both approaches worked. However, the scale/theory philosophy was a quicker path up the mountain.
Choose your approach carefully. Some want to make it up the mountain as quick as possible while others are happy just to get to the top no matter how long it takes. ---------- The Iceman
Learning scales is part of learning basic music theory. Musicians who take the time to learn them can usually adapt to tunes with changes OTHER than 1-4-5 and also if they make a mistake somewhere along the line, they will much more quickly be able to adjust without the need of a lot of thinking and turn mistakes into passing tones and they will NEVER look like what I see of harp players doing in many open jams, have the look of the deer in the headlights, or as an old pro once told, ")h s**t??? What the f**k do I do now???" look and those musicians (ESPECIALLY harp players) will be more easily comfortable in situations where it ain't just the 1-4-5 blues changes are being used.
When it came time for me many years ago to gig in a band where I was working as part of a 5 piece horn section, knowing these things were EXTREMELY IMPORTANT, especially when the horn section lines had to be played not in unison (for those who lack theory knowledge, where everyone is playing the very same notes), but harmonized lines, where one starts at the root, one at the 3rd of the chord, one at the 5th, etc., knowing these things were extremely important and so it allowed you to PROPERLY blend in and too many harp players who don't take the time to learn these things either just stand on the bandstand looking like a statue with a totally bewildered face or worse, do the old "when in doubt lick," AKA the warble thing, which often times ain't gonna fit worth a damn.
I hear so many damned harp players bitch and moan about learning these things but that's just taking an attitude of self sabotage and defeatist and too many of them tend to have the mentality, ESPECIALLY if they started out later in their lives teaching themselves how to play, that if they can't seemingly learn it in about 5 to 10 minutes, they can't learn a damned thing and my argument against that silly way of thinking is this here below:
1.) When you first picked up the instrument, didn't it take you a helluva lot longer than 5-10 minutes to finally learn how to play your very first single note???
2. Didn't it take you a helluva lot longer than 5-10 minutes for you to be able to get your first bent note?????
3. Didn't it take you a helluva lot longer than 5-10 minutes for you to be able to get your first overblow???
Learning scales, part of learning theory, just like learning to get your time straight is something that ain't gonna something you learn in 5-10 minutes and you gotta be persistent and motivated to do it and none of these things are something anyone is born with one bit. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
Not to get you of in a tangent, but ive heard you say multiple times that time isn't something anyone is born with.
I'm sure this is my ignorance talking, but i think some people are born with anatural rythm and some arent.
So can you enlighten me?
I assume your talking about keeping time without speeding up as most of us tend to do when we really start ripping, but ... this isn't something I've really looked into.
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Last Edited by Killa_Hertz on May 19, 2016 11:24 AM
It's NOT just about scales, playing fast, playing slow, tongue blocking, etc. ......it's about MAKING music, not just playing it. Way too many musicians forget that.
......also, the general findings is that people usually don't like what they can't have/do. This holds true for musicians. Most of the posters with nothing positive to say are the OP short, sandal wearing(with white socks) musicians who have a severe overall musical deficit in their musical "bag-o-tricks". The musicians who can pull all the stops and MAKE music, not just play music, are the ones that have shed the OP shorts and the provincial thought that everything needs to still sound "pre-war"
Last Edited by CarlA on May 19, 2016 11:26 AM
Killa, you can find a lot of insight into you question in the book "Guitar Zero" by Gary Marcus. Gary is looking at music from a neuroscience background. In general he admits that some people have a basic aptitude, but focused training is the overwhelmingly important factor in getting good.
Thanks man. Right now its really not a big deal because i dont play with a band or anything so my time effects no one. But i suppose i should get to practicing it, atleast at some level, for when the time comes. ----------
Time isn't just about speeding up because it is also about slowing down as well and keeping the time straight is when the time NEVER fluctuates from beginning of a tune to the very end, no matter what the dynamics are from moment to moment and I often see in jams when the volume gets brought down, the tempo often slows down (and many times quite drastically) and when the volume goes up, the tempo does the exact opposite.
Some people learn things faster than others, which is true, but no one I've ever met, pro OR amateur, has ever been born with perfect time or automatic knowledge of scales and I've met so many musicians with talent up the ying yang who were often too lazy to get their s**t straight that often times, they got passed by those with much less talent do a helluva lot better because they were willing to do the work necessary to improve their game and it is true REGARDLESS of the genre of music being played.
Scales are tools and any tool is only as good as the person using them. ---------- Sincerely, Barbeque Bob Maglinte Boston, MA http://www.barbequebob.com CD available at http://www.cdbaby.com/cd/bbmaglinte
