OldGeezer
14 posts
Apr 28, 2016
12:48 PM
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There are many great harp customizers out there and they seem to customize only Hohner products. Why? Does anyone do Suzuku Manjis or Seydel 1847s? I certainly won't claim to be any kind of expert on who does what to which brand of harp, but, with one exception, I've never heard of any thing but Hohner. I think that Joe Filisko at one time used Lee Oskar plates in his harmonicas, but that's it.
Can anyone tell me why?
Thanks,
Paul N.
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Killa_Hertz
1199 posts
Apr 28, 2016
1:01 PM
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I think because Marine Bands and Hohner reeds in general seem easier to work on. But I guess once you get used to a reed material its the same either way. But doin more than one reed material would be a lil tough to get used to. Atleast to do at an efficiency you need to in order to make full time money. And if you had to pick only one, why not the most popular company in the world?
This is just my guess. I have no evidence to back this up, but ....
The only one i know that does multiple brands is Sugar Cain. Althought, even though he claims to be the best in the world next to Joe Falisko, I'm not so sure. His harps look tight though. I'd like to try a few of his models. But A Spiers Custom Marine Band with the Thunderbird Covers all worked out is surely first on my list of customs to try.
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Diggsblues
2022 posts
Apr 28, 2016
1:01 PM
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From what I've seen Manjis do have customs. I think any good harp can be customized it just depends sometimes on how much you want to pay. The first step I think is always a custom comb and you can get them for lots of brands.
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Gnarly
1755 posts
Apr 28, 2016
1:16 PM
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I see folks customizing Suzukis, and I am willing to improve a Suzuki harp--if you buy new from me, I can even save you money.
But they usually don't need anything, and if they do, I "improve" them under warranty for Suzuki (I'm currently the repair guy).
I like Hering, but be prepared for anything!
I am not particularly fond of Seydel or Lee Oskar (Tombo), although some great players are--I am not a great player (talked to Kitt Gamble for an hour, we agreed my tone sucks)--and I appreciate their customer service, both companies do right by the player.
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Ofir Levi
42 posts
Apr 28, 2016
1:17 PM
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Doesn't Jason Ricci modify those Manjis ?
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Gnarly
1756 posts
Apr 28, 2016
1:39 PM
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Yes he does!
I think Joe Spiers does some for him too, don't know if he is accepting orders for Suzukis right now--I just got an SBS Marine Band back from him, Joe does good work.
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harmonicanick
2423 posts
Apr 28, 2016
2:24 PM
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Who cares about customising now, OTB harps are great
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Gnarly
1757 posts
Apr 28, 2016
3:19 PM
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"You can always improve a harmonica."
Captcha is frk3hd
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Philosofy
746 posts
Apr 28, 2016
5:33 PM
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From what I've heard, Hohner rivets the reeds onto the plate, and Suzuki welds them. That makes replacing a Suzuki reed more difficult. I've also heard that its easier to buy individual Hohner reeds.
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Killa_Hertz
1200 posts
Apr 28, 2016
6:28 PM
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OOTB Harps = Crap
Some much better than others, but ....
Its just part of the deal. Tear em open an fix em.
Gnarly "You can always improve a harmonica" No Doubt.
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Gnarly
1759 posts
Apr 28, 2016
8:13 PM
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@Philosfy Yeah, Suzuki doesn't sell individual reeds!
Sorry . . .
Or valves, what is up with that . . .
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SuperBee
3653 posts
Apr 28, 2016
11:37 PM
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Some of those folks are 'hohner affiliated customisers' so I'm not sure, but that deal might preclude advertising other brands
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STME58
1669 posts
Apr 29, 2016
12:32 AM
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Gnarly always does a good job replacing Suzuki reeds using a screw to fasten them, but I am surprised Suzuki has not set him up with something like this and the appropriate fixtureing.
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CharlesR
16 posts
Apr 29, 2016
1:08 AM
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Beta-Harps are customized Seydel harps.
There have been reviews of the Beta-Harps on this forum in the past.
www.benboumanharmonicas.com
Last Edited by CharlesR on Apr 29, 2016 2:44 AM
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Rubes
981 posts
Apr 29, 2016
2:35 AM
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....hows your SBS Gnarly? mine would have to be my desert island piece...?
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Old Man Rubes at Reverbnation
Dads in Space at Reverbnation
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SuperBee
3654 posts
Apr 29, 2016
4:37 AM
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Sounds like that SBS is still rocking, Rubes? Yours is a beauty.
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Baker
430 posts
Apr 29, 2016
5:24 AM
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Eugene Ivanov –"jim" on here – from Russia, used to do Seydel harmonicas and swear by the superior quality reeds. Not heard much from him in a while though.
Last Edited by Baker on Apr 29, 2016 5:25 AM
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Gnarly
1760 posts
Apr 29, 2016
6:04 AM
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@Rube My SBS is retuned to circular on the bottom, it's in D and draw 3 is D, the top half is stock.
Joe did a great job, as usual, and I am pleased to have it back. I think I will use it at a gig today.
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Popculture Chameleon
155 posts
Apr 29, 2016
7:02 AM
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There are plenty of harp customizers that do more than hohner- just have to look for them- a guy in the UK named Sugar Cain does sydell and manji as well as hohner
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Killa_Hertz
1211 posts
Apr 29, 2016
8:53 AM
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Really? Never heard of him. 8^/
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florida-trader
901 posts
Apr 29, 2016
9:25 AM
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Why just Hohner?
To begin with, there are plenty of people who customize other brands but since Hohner is the dominant player in the harmonica world, you will see more guys working on Hohners than any other brand. It is the lowest common denominator.
That said, the birth of the cottage industry of customizing harmonicas was a direct result of the poor quality of Hohners in the 80’s and 90’s. Due to relaxed tolerances and worn out tooling the harps from that era were so leaky that they had to be customized just to make them play as well as the Hicksville Era harps of the 70’s. (That is an oversimplification). Guys like Rick Epping, who at the time worked in Hohner’s Repair Department, Joe Filisko and Richard Sleigh were the early pioneers of harmonica customizing. There are probably some others but I’m not trying to deliver a precise history – just the view from 10,000 feet.
The silver lining is that when the quality of the reed plates improved and you combined them with the knowledge that evolved from working on the dogs, it gave rise to a whole new breed of harps. The OverBlow-OverDraw Movement that is sweeping the harmonica world is a direct result of this sequence of events – in my opinion. Perhaps you agree or perhaps not.
There are a lot of guys who hang out on this forum who are very competent to expert reed smiths. Pretty much all of them will work on any harp you want. Gnarly is the Suzuki Repair Man but he has stated on many occasions that he works on and plays Special 20’s. I make custom combs for Hohners, Seydels, Suzukis and now, even Lee Oskars. I build Hohner harps and Suzuki harps. I don’t build a lot of Seydels but I have built enough of them to be familiar with them. I refer my customers who want Seydels to my good friend Greg Jones at 1623 Custom Harmonicas. He has become Seydel’s Go-To guy in the US for repairs and is one of their top Dealers. I haven’t done much work with Lee Oskars but since I just developed a line of custom comb for the Lee Oskar harps that may change. I haven’t put the combs up on my website yet but will soon.
Shifting gears, if I wanted to be tacky, one possible response to your question about why so many guys customize Hohners is because they need it the most. Certainly, there are more Hohner harmonicas in circulation than any other brand so if you are going to be in the customization game and you don’t work on Hohners, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage. But aside from that, in my opinion, of the three big name manufacturers, the Hohner reed plates are the lowest quality. Don’t get me wrong. I do think that the reed plates Hohner is making today are great, but by comparison to Seydel and Suzuki, they are third best in terms of design, engineering and construction. You have to do a fair amount of work on a Hohner reed plate to get it to be on par with an Out-of-the-box Suzuki or Seydel. Suzuki’s and Seydel’s reeds are flatter, they have closer tolerances with the slots, they are seldom misaligned in the slots and they are generally in better tune from the factory. There is a difference in the material used for the reeds. Hohner uses Brass, which as some have pointed out is very malleable and easy to work with. Suzuki uses Phosphor Bronze which is harder than Brass. And the hot reed material from Seydel is Stainless Steel, which is harder yet than Phosphor Bronze. Many people argue that Hohner reed plates have a unique sound which they find more desirable. I won’t disagree with that point although I wonder, since Hohner has historically dominated the harmonica industry for over 100 years, if the Hohner sound is what people instinctively believe, “That’s what a harmonica is supposed to sound like.” Nothing wrong with that. Pianos have been around for a long time and there are electric pianos that sound pretty good, but nothing sounds quite like a grand piano so that’s what serious piano players perform on. My point is that if you want to start with an Out-of-the-box harp and “improve it” to a point where it is a “professional quality instrument” (both of these terms in quotes are huge oversimplifications), you will have to do more work on a Hohner than you will on a Suzuki or Seydel. The end result will be the same in terms of playability and you could argue that you prefer the sound of the Brass Hohner reeds over the Phosphor Bronze or Stainless Steel, so in the end, the Hohner will be a superior harp - but it just takes more work to get there.
These are my opinions which I draw from working on 100’s of Hohners and Suzukis and not as many Seydels over the past several years. You may agree or disagree. That’s OK. I’m not looking for an argument. I play all three brands. I love them all. I also like Chinese Food, Mexican Food, Italian Food. I listen to Rock & Roll Music, Blues, Classical, Gospel and so on. I’m not trying to persuade anybody to buy one brand vs. another. I’m just giving you my observations.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
Last Edited by florida-trader on Apr 29, 2016 9:41 AM
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OldGeezer
15 posts
Apr 29, 2016
10:14 AM
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Tom,
That's the best explanation I've heard. Thanks.
Paul N.
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Bass410man
83 posts
Apr 29, 2016
11:03 AM
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Zajac use to offer manji's and seydel. But now he only offers hohner, I guess because he is a hohner tech now, he has to do what they tell him. To me he's losing business, as is everyone who affiliates with one brand. I know I will not buy from anyone who only offers Hohner products. I think hohner is way behind the other makers and will never catch up. They just want to try to monopolize the market with their junk, just my opinion.
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nacoran
9043 posts
Apr 29, 2016
12:21 PM
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Bassman, I think it's a tradeoff when you associate with just one manufacturer. I'm sure it gets you some traffic from word of mouth from the manufacturer. I don't imagine people would sign up if they didn't at least perceive a business benefit.
That said, at heart, I like a business that serves as wide a base as possible, whether it's a store that stocks a wide range of brands or a customizer who works on them. I disagree that all Hohners are subpar. I've got some really nice Hohner harps. I prefer Seydel and Lee Oskars, but that's largely taste. One marketing deal that does bother me a bit is whatever the deal is that makes it so hard to get any other Tombo harps in the U.S. It's one thing to be exclusive as a store, but a whole brand that makes it hard to get anything but one model in a country bugs me. I understand that most stores don't want to have another huge amount of stock, but we live in an era where you'd think they would at least make it easy to special order.
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Nate
Facebook
Thread Organizer (A list of all sorts of useful threads)
First Post- May 8, 2009
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Killa_Hertz
1217 posts
Apr 29, 2016
12:32 PM
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Tom I agree with pretty much everything you said.
Im not sure if I "prefer" Hohner reeds, but I sure do like the way they sound.
Im still curious as to what a Manji, Session Steel, or 1847 would sound like @ 19 Limit or 7 Limit.
But I also find Marine Band Reeds much easier to play. After playing Manjis for a while, going back to Marine Bands feels like I took my Steel Toe Work Boots Off and Put On My Sneakers. They just seem to play more fluid, but there are also all the downsides you mentioned.
Im not arguing one harp is better than another, just simply a comment.
The thing I find curious is that (as you said) Stainless Steel is tougher than phosphor Bronze. However I find SS easier to play than PB. Nearly as easy as Marine Band Reeds ( Brass).
Again, just a comment. Wondering if anyone knows why. Perhaps its more to do with one being more sensitive to reed shape than another? Or something like that.
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OldGeezer
16 posts
Apr 29, 2016
12:56 PM
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Nacoran: I sent a message to the Lee Oskar Co. a few weeks ago about Tombo's new Mu-01 chromatic. They told me that they will be importing these as well as some tremolos and diatonics later this year or early next year. It's about time.
Paul N.
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harpwrench
1090 posts
Apr 29, 2016
1:56 PM
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Customer service is a big factor, pros rely on a prompt turnaround on repairs so they can make the next gig or tour, I excel at that. But I also stock a lot parts and reeds to cover my needs. I can't see making that investment in multiple brands for the extremely few who want them. My choice was made long before I signed with Hohner.
There are also technical factors, I was working on Manji reeds before there even was a Manji. They wanted my opinion on how to improve the prototypes, I gave it, they ignored it. Hohners are not harder to make play to my standards, it's the other way around. I can build a pretty fierce Suzuki, ask Jason Ricci. They take longer though. Mostly because they have serious quirks when it comes to accurate tuning, that is a deal breaker for me and it is for serious players. Some players don't care, they don't know their harp is out of tune until they swallow a reed, and for some it's literally played until there's at least three out. I would rather get kicked in the bits than have to bring a Seydel to my standards. I certainly can, but it's not fun for me, have to disagree about how swell they are. Last point, I take a harp from point A to point B, and everyone doesn't have the same idea about point A or B.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
Harp repair and upgrade menu
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florida-trader
902 posts
Apr 29, 2016
2:35 PM
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Joe - excellent points and thanks for bringing your perspective into the conversation. Whether anyone thinks one brand is better than the other, one thing is for sure - Hohner is still King of the Jungle.
Let me ask you a question. I think you know that there is no comparison to the harps I build vs. the harps you build. You do a lot more work on the reed plates than I do. My comments stem in part from my experience tuning reed plates. Let's say for example the 1 Draw is 5 cents flat, all things being equal - using the same rotary tool at the same speed and the same bit - it takes longer to tune the Suzuki reed than it does the Hohner reed. It's not a quality issue. It is a hardness of material issue. The Phosphor Bronze Suzuki Reeds are harder than the Brass Hohner Reeds and you have work a little harder to remove material from them. I've been using the same bit in my rotary tool for 6 months and it is still going strong. My good friend Greg Jones, who works almost exclusively on Seydels, wears out a bit every month or two. The difference is that he is working on Stainless Steel Reeds vs. Brass or even the Phosphor Bronze Suzuki Reeds. My conclusion, without doing any expensive scientific analysis, is that the metals are harder. Is this what you are experiencing as well and is this why it is more difficult to get the harp where you want it? And the corollary to that question is, do you feel that this factor is what makes the Hohner Reed Plates better (or at the very least, more desireable to work on)?
Finally, with regard to Point A to Point B - I agree 100%. I take harps from Point A to Point B or maybe Point C. You take them to Points X, Y and Z.
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Tom Halchak
www.BlueMoonHarmonicas.com
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shakeylee
528 posts
Apr 29, 2016
4:43 PM
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An aside , for killa hertz
You expressed an interest in a manji with JI.
I built one up with a Zajac comb and fabulous just reed plates from Rockin rons .
Easily one of the best harps I have .
https://youtu.be/5N3K7r59L5o
Also , I believe gnarly offers a service to tune suzukis to just .
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www.shakeylee.com
Last Edited by shakeylee on Apr 29, 2016 4:46 PM
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harpwrench
1091 posts
Apr 29, 2016
4:53 PM
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I imagine Greg wears his out sooner from use, from tuning reeds down a half step, and replacing both reeds in the hole on a repair.
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www.spiersharmonicas.com
Harp repair and upgrade menu
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Gnarly
1765 posts
May 01, 2016
8:34 AM
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Yes, I tune all models of harmonica to your choice of tuning or intonation. I use a combination of tools for that, including polishing bits (Brownies) in a Dremel, and sanding wands. I also have a couple of Wally Peterman tools, he made some of the first draw scrapers and he made me one, as well as the tool in this picture.
 fewdun
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Killa_Hertz
1246 posts
May 01, 2016
9:44 AM
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Thanks for that shakey. Im fairly competent at tuning. I have just been wondering for a while what it would sound like to have a JI Manji.
Like a Big Beefy Marine Band. If you like it so much, I think i might finally give it a try.
I thought it would sound nearly identical to a marine band of you tuned it to Just, but it seems by the video that yours still holds a bit of that Sweet Manji Sound. Is that pretty accurate?
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snowman
197 posts
May 01, 2016
6:52 PM
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Im not an expert ---but i do work on my own harps---and a few years back worked on and studied a lot of harps--
--There are long slot and short slot reeds --Meaning a 6 blow reed, on a hohner C harp, is a longer reed than a 6 blow Lee Oscar also in key of C
The Lee oscar is shorter and wider on that 6 blow c harp---- the hohner is longer and more narrow--2 very different animals
The shorter fatter ones have more of a tendency to squeal during overblows—hence turbo tape---wax—nail polish [to help stop the squeal].
The longer, narrower reeds are believed to overblow easier---that has been my experience as well
I think hering are in between—
With Hohner All the [SP 20-----GM- ----marine band---- use the same “REEDS”] ---not reed plates but “reeds’
so if a reed is overworked or bent or whatever u can swap or buy one—
This is just an example, the octaves are probably wrong---but lets say u have a broken 2 draw reed on a spec 20 in C--- that’s broken---lets say it’s a G4 note-[meaning it’s the same G on the fourth octave of a piano] that G4 may be on an old GM reedplate u have on a C harp—totally interchangeable ---or
That G4 may on an old marine band reedplate in “G” only on that harp it may be at the 6 blow —I don’t have my charts in front of me, but the point is this ‘BOUNDLESS POSSIBILITIES FOR INDIVIDUAL REED REPLACEMENT WITH Hohner’
As good as Suzukies are ootb—if something happens, u can’t just call them an order A reed etc
U can’t with hering or Lee Oscar
U can make a Hohner reed plate and reeds, last forever, due to all the options—when it does get to old etc ,u put the reed plate in yr hohner reed plate pile –knowing u can use the ind reeds from that scraped reedplate on a few different models
Suzuki----Manji , Firebreath are to me the best, set up, ootb harp I love em---I just don’t like messing to much with em ,cuz if something does go wrong, with 1 reed yr screwed not so with Hohner
Hering play fine ---but I ‘FIRMLY BELIEVE THE METAL THEY USE IS INFERIOR---ONE SLIP AND ITS BENT----WAY MORE THAN ANY OTHER MANUFACTURER—ALSO DON’T LAST AS LONG
Can’t speak for seydell never had one ---no reason –just haven’t had one
Lee Oscars are strong-long lasting good harps—just a lot more work to get 456 ob and u have to order new reedplate or use scrape lee Oscar reed plates---cannot order ind
For these reasons my favorite harps are GM and Crossovers---I own and love my manjies and firebreaths but treat them gingerly peace out
--
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FilipJers
20 posts
May 02, 2016
1:31 AM
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@harpwrench - I would love to try a Spiers Suzuki Manji, sounds interesting!
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