Andy Just has just played here in Australia and I was blown away by his split octave tongue swish. He was getting a really great sound out of it. I had to find out about it in more detail and came across Adam's YouTube clip on tonguing harmonicas. He starts it at the 3:24 mark on the following clip;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ebZpdXL5xa8
I have to know, can anyone train their tongues to do this? My side swish is like having a dead fish for a tongue and while I can get some side movement going on, it's so slow and awkward.
Every day I'm practicing, in the car, at home, walking down the street when there aren't too many people watching.
I can fake it using a head shake, but it's not the same.
I'm just hoping this isn't a genetic thing like some can do it and others can't. Tried all kinds of searches to find stuff about tongue exercises and one site (and my physio) say the tongues only a muscle and as such can be trained. If that's so my tongue's not so keen to learn!
Anyone been there and mastered the side to side swish? I'm not talking about those lucky enough to be able to do it from the get go.
There are pros that just can't do it. The school of thought says ... you can do it or you can't. Practice trying to switch slowly and just get a clean note on either side. Then speed it up.
But jason ricci had a video. He says he tried it for years and just can't do it. So if he can't. Must be some truth to it. Idk. That's my 2 cents. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
There's a genetic thing that some people can curl their tongues into a U shape and some can't. Same thing for side-to-side motion. I remember demonstrating the side-to-side to Paul deLay and he said he couldn't do it. So you're in good company. =========== Winslow
Interesting. So it's not B.S. I never really looked into it. I ve just heard it said a bunch. ---------- "Trust Those Who Seek The Truth. Doubt Those Who Say They Have Found It."
I believe you can build speed. I started incredibly slow and now I am at a slow but workable pro level.
Practice playing 2 blow out of the left side of your mouth, 3 blow out of the right, 2 left, 4 right, 2 left, 5 right, 2 left,6 right, 2 left, 5 right, 2 left, 4 right, 2 left 3 right.
There is a reason why I don't start with 1 on the left. Since there is nothing to the left of it, it will fool you into thinking you are correct. When I practice this 5 minutes a day for 3 months, the results are very noticeable. I never have been able to maintain interest longer than that, but I have have two practice periods and experienced growth in speed both times.
I agree w/ killa hrtz------start SLOW--- ----- grab say a C harp----- with ‘lip pursing’ blow just hole 6--- now take 10 minutes if u want and position yr tongue to the left of hole 6 , [ while pushing harp further in yr mouth] [ pursing pushes harp out a little , for tongue block or split tongue, push it in yr mouth more]------ leave yr tongue there and blow only hole 6---play with it for monthes if u want, but get it------2nd now that u can tounge block hole 6 slowly, work on doing it moderately etc------then when u feel ready, try blowing approx. 456 holes then lay yr tongue down the way u been practicing, on the left side of 6---- when u can slap it hard there, you’ve done a tongue slap 0n blow 6--------------------when you can bounce yr toungue on and off, say 345blow and still keep [ blowing 6 DURING the bounce on and off ] ----then you have begun syncopating back beats -- ------------------------------------------------ now for octave splits in cross harp , when the song is 12 bar blues with no quick change, the first 4 measures, is over the I CHORD—In key of G It’s a G. G7, G9, maybe a G6 ----but its some form of G [ which is the I chord in G]--- The root note of G chord, is G-------on a C harp the [ I note G is on the 3b 6b and 9 b also since 3 blow is the same note as 2 draw u also have 2 draw being the root note---------------------------------------------------------- so clear yr head , were still on the first four measures of 12 bar in G a G chord if at any time during those first four measures u octave split ,[ with yr toungue] the 3 ad 6 blow notes 0r 6 and 9 blow notes-----u will be playing the root note of the G chord [an octave split]--- a very chordal thick sound—and it fits-------------------------------on the next 2 measures [the 5 and 6 measure ] u octave split the the 1 and 4blow, or 4 and 7 blow or the 7 and 10 blow- u now have the root note ,of the IV chord (C note)i n an octave split ----the V chord in the turn the octave split is on the 1 and 5 draw mainly—but also 5 and 8 draw----- 5 and 8 draw sounds gritty , especially when not played perfect ---Rod Piazza in ‘ chicken shack’ hIts a split tongue 5 and 8 draw and picks up just a little of 3 draw --he does IT ON a turn ---- sounds gritty and biting and at first sounds bad,, but then u get it and its gritty===-----------------------------------------------------------------------------AFTER U MASTER TOUNGUE BLOCK 6------HOW TO [SPLIT TOUNGUE] SAY 3 AND 6 ON C HARP, THAT’S OCTAVE SPLIT OF G NOTE ====------------[BLOW 6 BLOW 3 HEAR EACH NOTE]------- SAME NOTE DIFFERENT OCTAVE---- now shove harp further in mouth and take 2 monthes if u want--- put tongue on 45 blow [and block them] keep blowing tell u hear only the 3 and 6 [ wella an octave split]--- I know guys who have been playing 43 years like me ----WHO CAN’T OR DON’T DO THEM] neither [ tongue block] or [split toungue] or [syncopating]--- SO TAKE YR TIME—EACH time , U DO IT WRONG BRINGS U THAT MUCH CLOSER TO DOING IT RIGHT--- HOPE THIS HELPS ------------------------------------------------- also I cant make a “U” with my toungue most people can--- It took me at least 3 – 6 months- to do a tongue flutter which sounds similar to a [warble between 2 notes] but yr just flick ing toungue on and of fast say 2 3 4 5 draw Kim Wilson thing ------ I think everyone can do these things w/ practice c
slapphappy --- cuz I've lost the internet connection in the middle of typing --I do it in word paste n copy--- will it remember paragraphs? at any rate yr right--- hek I wrote it and it looks and reads like chicken scratch---thanks for bein light hearted---music is suppose to be fun will work on it
Last Edited by snowman on Feb 08, 2016 4:03 PM
I'm not sure there's a genetic component to the side-to-side tongue technique. I was determined to add that technique to my arsenal and started working on it in 2006, just doing a lot of repetition of the side-to-side movement and trying to get faster. Progress was painfully slow, but by 2013, I had it pretty well down pat with good speed and intensity. So yeah, I nailed it in a mere 7 years. :-)
I don't know if direction of tongue motion is fundamentally different, but I just had an interesting experience with the kids I have been teaching. I was explaining the brass tonguing techniques of double and triple tonguing. What seemed quite simple for me was difficult for them. They asked me to play "Reveille" as fast as I could and they were impressed with my mediocre, but journeyman level effort. I know that if these kids stick with music and keep practicing, they will be tonguing circles around me before they graduate high school. If you haven't tried brass tonguing on the harp you might want to, I find it a good tool to have in the tool box. And if you think you need to be young to learn stuff fast, read Gary Marcus' "Guitar Zero".
Brilliant, with practice I can turn my dead fish of a tongue into a live one with a wiggle. A slick quick wiggle ;-) That's if I live long enough! I'm practicing as often as I can, with or without the harp just to get the side to side action happening. Harder with the harp but I'm detecting a small increase in speed. Mind you, initially it was really slow and uncoordinated, which it will happily drop back into now and again. But, you are the inspiration, I'll follow your path and perseverance. Watch this space for a progress report in a couple of years time.
"This article is about human tongue rolling. For tongue rolling in cattle, see Vacuum activity. For the movement disorder, see Tardive dyskinesia.
A rolled tongue Tongue rolling is the ability to roll the lateral edges of the tongue upwards into a tube. The intrinsic muscles allow some people to form their tongues into specific shapes. Popular belief holds that variation in this ability is the result of genetic inheritance. Rolling the tongue into a tube shape is often described as a dominant trait with simple Mendelian inheritance, and it is commonly referenced in introductory biology courses.[1] There is little laboratory evidence supporting the hypothesis that tongue rolling is inheritable and dominant. In 1940, Alfred Sturtevant observed that ~70% of people of European ancestry could roll their tongues and the remaining ~30% could not do it.[2] A 1975 twin study found that identical twins were no more likely than fraternal twins to both have the same phenotype for tongue rolling.[3]
Cloverleaf tongue - 4 times Cloverleaf tongue is the ability to fold the tongue in a certain configuration with multiple bends. To the extent to which it is genetic, it is probably a dominant trait distinct from tongue rolling.[3]"
The science on the tongue roll being strictly genetic is split.
Maybe spend some time with a mirror sticking your tongue out? Half serious, since sometimes we don't know what we are doing in our mouths at any given time. I know in early childhood development we learn different sounds particular to our language and don't learn ones not present and that that can make it difficult to learn proper pronunciation in foreign languages in life. I suspect the tongue wag stuff is similar, with a couple exceptions. I know, for instance that my friend can't pronounce certain sounds like the rolled R sound, and his doctor said it was because the little flap of skin under his tongue comes out too far, a literal form of being tongue tied. (Although even there I'm not entirely sold. He also spent the first few years of his life functionally deaf so it's possible a family doc was a little over anxious to diagnose an unusual affliction.)
So, it's physically possible that it's not possible, but I'd lean towards it being an acquired skill in most cases. When I was starting out I couldn't do it but I've gotten so I think it's one of the strengths of my playing.
I've never heard of this technique before.Just picked up a Harp and did it straight away,bit rough but it was there!Must be a genetic thing because it sure isn't that i am a talented bugger.
On the tongue training thing. I took heart from finding other doctors who say the tongue can be trained. I also found this trick exercise sheet and a quote from which says "65-81% of people can roll their tongues; females are more likely to than males. Recent research has started to debunk the myth that tongue rolling is a genetic trait. Several studies in children showed that tongue rolling can be learned" Here's a link to the sheet. http://www.wikihow.com/Do-Tongue-Tricks
Such a great sound .. I attended a short class with Dennis Gruenling & Deak Harp in Clarksdale at Deak's shop .. This question was 1 that I had for Dennis. Deak turned me on to tongue switching before this class .. I got it no problem …however, 'swishing' ... #%&$* @#$%^ !
Deak Harp said "your tongue is broken" .. Deak's a good friend.. we laughed, i cussed him inside … Dennis Gruenling didn't have much of a comment , "work on it".. he's a natural…
Been working on it the last 6 months .. not much improvement … #%&$* @#$%^ !
Last Edited by mastercaster on Feb 12, 2016 2:01 AM
